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The Yates (AKA the TUE Brothers)

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20 May 2018 19:29

I remember in 2016 Orica had a great year and had a lot of guys flying- Yates brothers, Chaves, even Damien Howson turned into a really good domestique in the mountains and had a great Giro and Vuelta. last year they all seemed way off, almost like they got the call to tone it down. now they're back at it and better than ever, Kreuziger was flying in the Ardennes and now Jack Haig is the best climbing domestique in the world.
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Re:

20 May 2018 20:07

zlev11 wrote:I remember in 2016 Orica had a great year and had a lot of guys flying- Yates brothers, Chaves, even Damien Howson turned into a really good domestique in the mountains and had a great Giro and Vuelta. last year they all seemed way off, almost like they got the call to tone it down. now they're back at it and better than ever, Kreuziger was flying in the Ardennes and now Jack Haig is the best climbing domestique in the world.


this time around is different: While the Yate brothers and the majority of the team members are elevating their game- ((((Chavito seems to be fading)))) which is an interesting detail, given the fact that Estevan was supposed to be the guy meant to lead the team in Italy due to his proven performance record- yet he's downspireling badly (setting aside injuries and personal affairs of course) in a very strange way >>> in comparison to the Yate brothers <<<<<

just too damn good to be true....
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Re: Re:

20 May 2018 21:57

Rollthedice wrote:
lartiste wrote:I do not buy it. It is unreal He was never before close to that kind of performance.

Does anyone know whether they have new doc in MS? Since it is most probable explanation... .


Don't know if this doctor is still with the team. He was in 2016 pictured here with our hero at his first win in a GT, Vuelta:

Image

His name is Manuel Rodriguez Alonso, former jobs: doctor for the Spanish Olympic committee from 1996 to 2004, and Team Doctor at ONCE (2000), Mapei (2001, 2002) and Quick Step (2003 and 2004).

Also to be noted, terbutaline for which Yates was busted, needs a TUE. This means you can basically take as much as you want orally. There is no reason to think Yates is riding this stratospheric Giro without a TUE.

That is actually not good at all. :(
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Re:

20 May 2018 22:06

Stella0596 wrote:What will the restday do to him though? Will MS fear he's looking too strong to be believable?

I hope they don't give the same that they gave Chaves! :D
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Re: Re:

20 May 2018 22:11

Brullnux wrote:
yaco wrote:You normally get an idea of a rider's level in their fifth year - Dumoulin won the Giro in his sixth year and showed GC prowess from year 4 - Yates finished top 10 in the Vuelta in year 3 and in the TDF in his fourth year - So the progression of both riders is following a linear path - In saying that Dumoulin's performance in the 2017 Giro was somewhat surprising, and S.Yates performance is a bit more surprising - I worry when a rider who has shown nothing on GC suddenly pops up and wins a GT, or if a riders performance jumps out of the ground after 8 or 9 years.

Nah, don't buy that at all. Yates has gone from top 10 material, no more no less, to dominating a GT in extreme style in 12 months. If he were to podium - fine. Even if he won, it would be extremely surprising, but ok. But this isn't winning, this is destroying. It's not linear at all. Dumoulin was leading the vuelta until the final stage - from there, it was clear that he had the ability, if he lost some weight and prepared for it better, to win a gt. Last year, with some tt miles thrown in, he won. Not by that much, but he won; he was a favourite in the lead up to it, though. Yates hasn't shown this ability, ever. Imagine if Formolo did this. Or Woods. Or Meintjes. Or Jungels. Even if barguil did this it would be astounding. It's weirder when you put into context of riders he was similar to last year, no? Let's not pretend, this is utterly astonishing.


It's less astonishing than the TT specialist Dumoulin coming out of nowhere in the Vuelta that year. He's had a steady progression. Ok, domination in this style was unexpected, but tbf with Froome this bad and this lack of TT kilometres, even a win isn't SHOCKING. Ok yeah I don't think anyone could have predicted this domination, but his rivals haven't shown a great level.
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Re: The Yates (AKA the TUE Brothers)

20 May 2018 22:28

Not Bad. From 7th in the tour and 44th in the vuelta without doing nothing to destroying the field in 7 months was pretty unpredictable. 4 stage wins in 2 weeks, not even Pantani in 99'or Robobasso in 2006 were on this level.
Last edited by EroicaStradeBianche on 20 May 2018 22:31, edited 1 time in total.
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20 May 2018 22:31

hahahaha, that doctors résumé is awesome, about as dirty as you could get. does anyone know if he's still with the team?

i almost want to see this get as ridiculous as possible. how about a Haig-Yates 1-2 on Bardoneccia, a full minute ahead of the next guy? some real Saunier Duval sh*t. oh wait they kinda already did that.
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Re: The Yates (AKA the TUE Brothers)

20 May 2018 22:43

EroicaStradeBianche wrote:Not Bad. From 7th in the tour and 44th in the vuelta without doing nothing to destroying the field in 7 months was pretty unpredictable. 4 stage wins in 2 weeks, not even Pantani in 99'or Robobasso in 2006 were on this level.

This pretty much sums it up. He's ahead many a confirmed rope a dope on the Z, then the next day does a solo TT not just uphill, but also downhill, gaining every moment on everyone. Nice. I'm just interested in the TT right now to get a sense if this is 'just' silly, over the top doping ... or beyond the pale, likely gonna get popped dopy doping.
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Re:

20 May 2018 22:45

zlev11 wrote:hahahaha, that doctors résumé is awesome, about as dirty as you could get. does anyone know if he's still with the team?

i almost want to see this get as ridiculous as possible. how about a Haig-Yates 1-2 on Bardoneccia, a full minute ahead of the next guy? some real Saunier Duval sh*t. oh wait they kinda already did that.

LOL! How about Yates being within 30 seconds of Dumoulin on the TT?
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20 May 2018 22:46

He better be careful, if he wins the time trial by a minute he'll be popped for sure.
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20 May 2018 22:51

He is probably doing all the same everybody else does (except UAE it seems), which means TUEs, using grey areas whatever that means. But you guys seem to suggest he is on the real hard stuff. However, as the leader of a GT you are tested everyday so it's surely out of the question that he is on some kind of EPO or steroids. Don't really know how the situation reagarding blood bags and Biopass is, but a sudden rise of hematocrit after a rest day should be noticed easily also it would be difficult to keep the level below 50% by consuming a lot of liquid when you are tested after the stage.
I'm not an expert, but what do you expect him to be on if his performance is so incredibly unbelievable (leading a GT by 2 minutes apparantly is)? Btw, I'm not interested in some kind of conspiracy theories à la he's covered by UCI or whatever.
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20 May 2018 23:01

We haven't got a proper look at a top-level doping program since 2010 or thereabouts. We don't know for certain how much or how little they rely on EPO, steroids, blood bags or weight-loss drugs these days. Our inability to say how exactly he's getting his boost and getting away with it doesn't make the boost any less real.
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Re:

20 May 2018 23:21

Sestriere wrote:He is probably doing all the same everybody else does (except UAE it seems), which means TUEs, using grey areas whatever that means. But you guys seem to suggest he is on the real hard stuff. However, as the leader of a GT you are tested everyday so it's surely out of the question that he is on some kind of EPO or steroids. Don't really know how the situation reagarding blood bags and Biopass is, but a sudden rise of hematocrit after a rest day should be noticed easily also it would be difficult to keep the level below 50% by consuming a lot of liquid when you are tested after the stage.
I'm not an expert, but what do you expect him to be on if his performance is so incredibly unbelievable (leading a GT by 2 minutes apparantly is)? Btw, I'm not interested in some kind of conspiracy theories à la he's covered by UCI or whatever.

The everyday testing did wonders to catch Horner at the Vuelta, an EPO test has existed since 2001 and we know that EPO use didn't stop in 2001, testosterone is still usable has long as you don't go over the (very high) 4/1 T/E ratio which trigger the isotope ratio test, there's still no approved test for AICAR... What makes you think that it's impossible to take "hard stuff" exactly? And that's just talking about good old stuff, who knows what new substances are out there...
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Re: Re:

21 May 2018 00:00

ColonelKidneyBeans wrote:
Sestriere wrote:He is probably doing all the same everybody else does (except UAE it seems), which means TUEs, using grey areas whatever that means. But you guys seem to suggest he is on the real hard stuff. However, as the leader of a GT you are tested everyday so it's surely out of the question that he is on some kind of EPO or steroids. Don't really know how the situation reagarding blood bags and Biopass is, but a sudden rise of hematocrit after a rest day should be noticed easily also it would be difficult to keep the level below 50% by consuming a lot of liquid when you are tested after the stage.
I'm not an expert, but what do you expect him to be on if his performance is so incredibly unbelievable (leading a GT by 2 minutes apparantly is)? Btw, I'm not interested in some kind of conspiracy theories à la he's covered by UCI or whatever.

The everyday testing did wonders to catch Horner at the Vuelta, an EPO test has existed since 2001 and we know that EPO use didn't stop in 2001, testosterone is still usable has long as you don't go over the (very high) 4/1 T/E ratio which trigger the isotope ratio test, there's still no approved test for AICAR... What makes you think that it's impossible to take "hard stuff" exactly? And that's just talking about good old stuff, who knows what new substances are out there...

From my understanding, ever since the EPO test has been introduced it has become the "poor man's choice" to increase the hematocrit level as the effort and cost is less than blood transfusions. Also, many riders have been tested positive for EPO, the risk would be very high imo. Synthetic testosterone is dangerous, if you can avoid it you would definitely do it. Riders have been popped with it as well. Of the good old stuff blood transfusions seem the most likely to me.
However, my questions was also pointing at substances which haven't been known to be used so far but could if someone wanted to.
Btw, Nibali was leading that Vuelta most of the time.
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21 May 2018 00:13

That line about EPO being obsolete and the "poor man's choice" has been spread by the media whenever someone is caught with EPO, but the reality is that EPO and blood bags are complementary: you need one to mask the effects of the other. EPO when microdosed still has a small detection window and no rider who knows what they're doing will test positive for it unless they're very unlucky.
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21 May 2018 00:15

There's also one thing to remember. The testing is always behind the drugs on the market and there's usually new stuff out there. So exactly what are the using, who knows, although blood transfusions are still highly likely. I'm not sure if there is really a way to truly even test for that.
Wasn't someone recently busted/caught with testosterone patches? (Thought I saw something about it although I'm thinking maybe Pro Conti level, don't remember). Truthfully wouldn't be shocked if even the top guys are still using those. Although wouldn't be shocked if the top guys are still using EPO as well but micro dosing instead of what they used to do.
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Re: Re:

21 May 2018 00:17

Sestriere wrote:
ColonelKidneyBeans wrote:
Sestriere wrote:He is probably doing all the same everybody else does (except UAE it seems), which means TUEs, using grey areas whatever that means. But you guys seem to suggest he is on the real hard stuff. However, as the leader of a GT you are tested everyday so it's surely out of the question that he is on some kind of EPO or steroids. Don't really know how the situation reagarding blood bags and Biopass is, but a sudden rise of hematocrit after a rest day should be noticed easily also it would be difficult to keep the level below 50% by consuming a lot of liquid when you are tested after the stage.
I'm not an expert, but what do you expect him to be on if his performance is so incredibly unbelievable (leading a GT by 2 minutes apparantly is)? Btw, I'm not interested in some kind of conspiracy theories à la he's covered by UCI or whatever.

The everyday testing did wonders to catch Horner at the Vuelta, an EPO test has existed since 2001 and we know that EPO use didn't stop in 2001, testosterone is still usable has long as you don't go over the (very high) 4/1 T/E ratio which trigger the isotope ratio test, there's still no approved test for AICAR... What makes you think that it's impossible to take "hard stuff" exactly? And that's just talking about good old stuff, who knows what new substances are out there...

From my understanding, ever since the EPO test has been introduced it has become the "poor man's choice" to increase the hematocrit level as the effort and cost is less than blood transfusions. Also, many riders have been tested positive for EPO, the risk would be very high imo. Synthetic testosterone is dangerous, if you can avoid it you would definitely do it. Riders have been popped with it as well. Of the good old stuff blood transfusions seem the most likely to me.
However, my questions was also pointing at substances which haven't been known to be used so far but could if someone wanted to.
Btw, Nibali was leading that Vuelta most of the time.

EPO seems to be actually used as a way to mask blood reinfusions by counteracting reticulocyte suppression. Riders popped for Testosterone either went completely overboard with it or were target tested, it's still efficient as a recuperation aid.
I don't get what Nibali leading that Vuelta for most of the race adds, the fact is, Horner performance was ridiculous , we know from his released biopassport data that he was very likely blood doping (and that's being conservative), and got away with it.
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Re: Re:

21 May 2018 00:54

ColonelKidneyBeans wrote:
Sestriere wrote:
ColonelKidneyBeans wrote:
Sestriere wrote:He is probably doing all the same everybody else does (except UAE it seems), which means TUEs, using grey areas whatever that means. But you guys seem to suggest he is on the real hard stuff. However, as the leader of a GT you are tested everyday so it's surely out of the question that he is on some kind of EPO or steroids. Don't really know how the situation reagarding blood bags and Biopass is, but a sudden rise of hematocrit after a rest day should be noticed easily also it would be difficult to keep the level below 50% by consuming a lot of liquid when you are tested after the stage.
I'm not an expert, but what do you expect him to be on if his performance is so incredibly unbelievable (leading a GT by 2 minutes apparantly is)? Btw, I'm not interested in some kind of conspiracy theories à la he's covered by UCI or whatever.

The everyday testing did wonders to catch Horner at the Vuelta, an EPO test has existed since 2001 and we know that EPO use didn't stop in 2001, testosterone is still usable has long as you don't go over the (very high) 4/1 T/E ratio which trigger the isotope ratio test, there's still no approved test for AICAR... What makes you think that it's impossible to take "hard stuff" exactly? And that's just talking about good old stuff, who knows what new substances are out there...

From my understanding, ever since the EPO test has been introduced it has become the "poor man's choice" to increase the hematocrit level as the effort and cost is less than blood transfusions. Also, many riders have been tested positive for EPO, the risk would be very high imo. Synthetic testosterone is dangerous, if you can avoid it you would definitely do it. Riders have been popped with it as well. Of the good old stuff blood transfusions seem the most likely to me.
However, my questions was also pointing at substances which haven't been known to be used so far but could if someone wanted to.
Btw, Nibali was leading that Vuelta most of the time.

EPO seems to be actually used as a way to mask blood reinfusions by counteracting reticulocyte suppression. Riders popped for Testosterone either went completely overboard with it or were target tested, it's still efficient as a recuperation aid.
I don't get what Nibali leading that Vuelta for most of the race adds, the fact is, Horner performance was ridiculous , we know from his released biopassport data that he was very likely blood doping (and that's being conservative), and got away with it.


Glad to read a post which seems quite well informed. Kudos.
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Re: Re:

21 May 2018 01:25

ColonelKidneyBeans wrote:
Sestriere wrote:
ColonelKidneyBeans wrote:
Sestriere wrote:He is probably doing all the same everybody else does (except UAE it seems), which means TUEs, using grey areas whatever that means. But you guys seem to suggest he is on the real hard stuff. However, as the leader of a GT you are tested everyday so it's surely out of the question that he is on some kind of EPO or steroids. Don't really know how the situation reagarding blood bags and Biopass is, but a sudden rise of hematocrit after a rest day should be noticed easily also it would be difficult to keep the level below 50% by consuming a lot of liquid when you are tested after the stage.
I'm not an expert, but what do you expect him to be on if his performance is so incredibly unbelievable (leading a GT by 2 minutes apparantly is)? Btw, I'm not interested in some kind of conspiracy theories à la he's covered by UCI or whatever.

The everyday testing did wonders to catch Horner at the Vuelta, an EPO test has existed since 2001 and we know that EPO use didn't stop in 2001, testosterone is still usable has long as you don't go over the (very high) 4/1 T/E ratio which trigger the isotope ratio test, there's still no approved test for AICAR... What makes you think that it's impossible to take "hard stuff" exactly? And that's just talking about good old stuff, who knows what new substances are out there...

From my understanding, ever since the EPO test has been introduced it has become the "poor man's choice" to increase the hematocrit level as the effort and cost is less than blood transfusions. Also, many riders have been tested positive for EPO, the risk would be very high imo. Synthetic testosterone is dangerous, if you can avoid it you would definitely do it. Riders have been popped with it as well. Of the good old stuff blood transfusions seem the most likely to me.
However, my questions was also pointing at substances which haven't been known to be used so far but could if someone wanted to.
Btw, Nibali was leading that Vuelta most of the time.

EPO seems to be actually used as a way to mask blood reinfusions by counteracting reticulocyte suppression. Riders popped for Testosterone either went completely overboard with it or were target tested, it's still efficient as a recuperation aid.
I don't get what Nibali leading that Vuelta for most of the race adds, the fact is, Horner performance was ridiculous , we know from his released biopassport data that he was very likely blood doping (and that's being conservative), and got away with it.

And you didn't touch on the HGH drug.

When was the last rider caught on Aicar?
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Re: Re:

21 May 2018 01:58

ColonelKidneyBeans wrote:
Sestriere wrote:He is probably doing all the same everybody else does (except UAE it seems), which means TUEs, using grey areas whatever that means. But you guys seem to suggest he is on the real hard stuff. However, as the leader of a GT you are tested everyday so it's surely out of the question that he is on some kind of EPO or steroids. Don't really know how the situation reagarding blood bags and Biopass is, but a sudden rise of hematocrit after a rest day should be noticed easily also it would be difficult to keep the level below 50% by consuming a lot of liquid when you are tested after the stage.
I'm not an expert, but what do you expect him to be on if his performance is so incredibly unbelievable (leading a GT by 2 minutes apparantly is)? Btw, I'm not interested in some kind of conspiracy theories à la he's covered by UCI or whatever.

The everyday testing did wonders to catch Horner at the Vuelta, an EPO test has existed since 2001 and we know that EPO use didn't stop in 2001, testosterone is still usable has long as you don't go over the (very high) 4/1 T/E ratio which trigger the isotope ratio test, there's still no approved test for AICAR... What makes you think that it's impossible to take "hard stuff" exactly? And that's just talking about good old stuff, who knows what new substances are out there...


To add ...

1. Cheats are always a half step ahead or more, so there's always something new.

2. Legal drugs can be used for all sorts of questionable goals. Just look at the unethical use of TUEs for corticosteroids and other drugs! The thing is, just like EPO use, it's not like a one size fits all approach. Everyone responds differently to different things. But there are certainly medications that can help with recovery and weight loss for those poor, sick people who need to race at superhuman levels (just ask Froome).
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