Log in:  

Register

The Yates (AKA the TUE Brothers)

The Clinic is the only place on Cyclingnews where you can discuss doping-related issues. Ask questions, discuss positives or improvements to procedures.

Moderators: Irondan, Eshnar, Red Rick, Pricey_sky, Tonton, King Boonen, Valv.Piti

Re:

23 May 2018 16:15

macbindle wrote:Yes, but don't forget as far as GTs go he has been mostly in the TdF, which is on another level.

He still managed some top 10 ( a 7th and a 5th or something) on some pretty beefy stsges up against the world's best.

EDIT: Apologies this is a reply to Roundabout.


I don't have the links ready, but from my recollection of the various climb analysis performed over the years, the level on the climbs required to win the Giro is about the same as in the Tour.
User avatar roundabout
Veteran
 
Posts: 13,019
Joined: 07 Jun 2010 11:43

Re: Re:

23 May 2018 17:04

roundabout wrote:
macbindle wrote:Yes, but don't forget as far as GTs go he has been mostly in the TdF, which is on another level.

He still managed some top 10 ( a 7th and a 5th or something) on some pretty beefy stsges up against the world's best.

EDIT: Apologies this is a reply to Roundabout.


I don't have the links ready, but from my recollection of the various climb analysis performed over the years, the level on the climbs required to win the Giro is about the same as in the Tour.


I never thought the TdF was on another level.

I prefer the Giro as a spectacle to the TdF which has become a procession mostly since Indurain.
User avatar Benotti69
Veteran
 
Posts: 19,289
Joined: 26 May 2010 09:09

23 May 2018 17:50

I agree, the Giro is the best GT in my opinion. However, look who turns up to the Giro compared to the Tour. It isn't really debatable which one is the most highly contested. (and yes, I know Froome is at the Giro, but this year he is an anomaly)
(Warning: Posts may contain traces of irony)
User avatar macbindle
Member
 
Posts: 806
Joined: 22 Dec 2017 16:46

Re: The Yates (AKA the TUE Brothers)

23 May 2018 18:38

There are different forms of doping...

Donkey to racehorse doping - Froome
Solid rider with one bad day repaired doping - Yates
Shame riders publicly so they have to resort to personal doping - Astana / Nibali
Anti-doping doping - Garmin/JV riders
User avatar thehog
Veteran
 
Posts: 21,083
Joined: 27 Jul 2009 20:00

23 May 2018 19:00

Doping was always part of the game. Don't see anything that suggests change. As you say there are levels of doping. Most of it is down to what riders are willing to invest financially.

Within the parameters of what I've just said, I don't see anything extreme with Yates as has been suggested upthread. Success begats success...because success means more money to invest in better 'medical care'
(Warning: Posts may contain traces of irony)
User avatar macbindle
Member
 
Posts: 806
Joined: 22 Dec 2017 16:46

23 May 2018 19:03

Oh, he has clearly stepped up his program.

I find it far, far more likely that his improvement is also down to more effective doping program than it being done with a similar/unchanged program. And not just marginally so.
Goodbye, Tommeke; thank you for all you have given us!
User avatar Netserk
Veteran
 
Posts: 19,999
Joined: 30 Apr 2011 13:10
Location: Denmark

23 May 2018 19:26

So go on then. Tell us more. What drugs was he using before? What is he using now?
(Warning: Posts may contain traces of irony)
User avatar macbindle
Member
 
Posts: 806
Joined: 22 Dec 2017 16:46

Re:

23 May 2018 19:31

macbindle wrote:So go on then. Tell us more. What drugs was he using before? What is he using now?


The fact that no one has the answer to that neither adds or removes credibility to the speculation that he's upped his program. Probably best to to recognize that it's pure speculation and there's no way to know.
User avatar red_flanders
Veteran
 
Posts: 6,043
Joined: 03 Apr 2009 06:45

23 May 2018 19:38

Nope. If you want to use phrases like 'clearly' then you need to put some meat on the bones. Either you demonstrate an actual knowledge of the substances used or an actual knowledge of human physiology where you can demonstrate that the improvement cannot be accounted for by training. For both you need to be able to quantify the improvement.

Otherwise it's just guff.
(Warning: Posts may contain traces of irony)
User avatar macbindle
Member
 
Posts: 806
Joined: 22 Dec 2017 16:46

23 May 2018 20:06

Same arguments heard about Armstrong and Froome. You want a smoking gun. Well you will have to wait at best couple of years more likely 5-10. Already seen people climbing HC climbs smirking. It always ends up in tears.
User avatar zastomito
Junior Member
 
Posts: 133
Joined: 23 Jul 2009 17:13

23 May 2018 20:24

Froome did show an improvement that couldn't be accounted for by training.

Armstrong? Everybody knew anyway. Open secret.

Smirking? He looked like he was grimacing. Actually they all did.

Maybe they were all smirking.
(Warning: Posts may contain traces of irony)
User avatar macbindle
Member
 
Posts: 806
Joined: 22 Dec 2017 16:46

23 May 2018 21:18

No, the same amount of people knew. People in the peloton and aficionados like people in the Clinic. Same as with Yates.
User avatar zastomito
Junior Member
 
Posts: 133
Joined: 23 Jul 2009 17:13

23 May 2018 21:25

See above posts about speculation. Speculating is not knowing.
(Warning: Posts may contain traces of irony)
User avatar macbindle
Member
 
Posts: 806
Joined: 22 Dec 2017 16:46

Re: Re:

23 May 2018 21:25

red_flanders wrote:
macbindle wrote:So go on then. Tell us more. What drugs was he using before? What is he using now?


The fact that no one has the answer to that neither adds or removes credibility to the speculation that he's upped his program. Probably best to to recognize that it's pure speculation and there's no way to know.


I think sometimes you can infer. For example, riders that suddenly become super skinny before a GT: corticosteriods, aicar etc. And non climbers that suddenly start making very select front groups on long climbs: just screams epo. And riders who rebound stunningly during a GT: may as well wear a billboard which says "just had a nice sweet blood bag."

If there's anything about Yates that looks a bit different, it's his arms: definitely lost muscle mass there. And that's the modern GC program, perfected by Sky and then Tinkoff etc.
User avatar The Hegelian
Member
 
Posts: 767
Joined: 06 Jul 2014 09:18

Re:

23 May 2018 22:05

macbindle wrote:See above posts about speculation. Speculating is not knowing.


What we know for certain is that testing is a joke.

We know those in the sport have been and have no reason not to stop enabling doping.

Yates rides for a team run by past dopers. They made good from it, so they will not be picking riders to ride who will shun what they know works and boy does it work well.

Not speculation that anyone who wins a GT is doping and doping hard. Plenty of former riders have given testimony how it is impossible to win over 3 weeks without doping never mind compete over 3 weeks.

Till testing becomes a truly independent well funded body that takes its job seriously there is no speculation.
User avatar Benotti69
Veteran
 
Posts: 19,289
Joined: 26 May 2010 09:09

23 May 2018 22:10

It's a funny pattern that riders who are in their last year of contract magically step-up to unprecedented level. Yates is another brilliant example, natural progression at its best, multi-million bids are already reported. Doping pays off big time.
User avatar Rollthedice
Veteran
 
Posts: 5,758
Joined: 11 May 2013 10:59

Re: Re:

23 May 2018 22:32

Benotti69 wrote:
macbindle wrote:See above posts about speculation. Speculating is not knowing.


What we know for certain is that testing is a joke.

We know those in the sport have been and have no reason not to stop enabling doping.

Yates rides for a team run by past dopers. They made good from it, so they will not be picking riders to ride who will shun what they know works and boy does it work well.

Not speculation that anyone who wins a GT is doping and doping hard. Plenty of former riders have given testimony how it is impossible to win over 3 weeks without doping never mind compete over 3 weeks.

Till testing becomes a truly independent well funded body that takes its job seriously there is no speculation.


That is a different discussion.
(Warning: Posts may contain traces of irony)
User avatar macbindle
Member
 
Posts: 806
Joined: 22 Dec 2017 16:46

Re:

23 May 2018 22:33

Rollthedice wrote:It's a funny pattern that riders who are in their last year of contract magically step-up to unprecedented level. Yates is another brilliant example, natural progression at its best, multi-million bids are already reported. Doping pays off big time.



All riders in their last year of contract?

Or just the ones who fit your theory?
(Warning: Posts may contain traces of irony)
User avatar macbindle
Member
 
Posts: 806
Joined: 22 Dec 2017 16:46

Re: Re:

23 May 2018 22:41

macbindle wrote:
Rollthedice wrote:It's a funny pattern that riders who are in their last year of contract magically step-up to unprecedented level. Yates is another brilliant example, natural progression at its best, multi-million bids are already reported. Doping pays off big time.



All riders in their last year of contract?

Or just the ones who fit your theory?



Can't be all riders. Valverde and Sagan would be great examples of riders who's level doesn't really vary between contract years and non contract years. They both get similar results regardless of what their contract situation is. I also don't think Contador's contract vs no contract year levels varied that much either.
User avatar Koronin
Member
 
Posts: 1,461
Joined: 14 Oct 2017 01:42
Location: North Carolina, USA

Re: Re:

23 May 2018 23:05

macbindle wrote:
Rollthedice wrote:It's a funny pattern that riders who are in their last year of contract magically step-up to unprecedented level. Yates is another brilliant example, natural progression at its best, multi-million bids are already reported. Doping pays off big time.



All riders in their last year of contract?

Or just the ones who fit your theory?


Obviously a subjective matter of opinion on who's doing it. That said, this is a common phenomenon across sports. Players in the NFL, NBA, etc. have a habit of performing better when it's a contract year. Players, coaches, executives, reporters, and informed observers understand this. It's human nature. It would be pretty silly to act like this doesn't happen.

Demanding proof for subjective observations doesn't make a ton of sense. For the most part, we're here to discuss our opinions.
User avatar red_flanders
Veteran
 
Posts: 6,043
Joined: 03 Apr 2009 06:45

PreviousNext

Return to The Clinic

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: panyagua and 12 guests

Back to top