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The Yates (AKA the TUE Brothers)

The Clinic is the only place on Cyclingnews where you can discuss doping-related issues. Ask questions, discuss positives or improvements to procedures.

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04 Sep 2016 00:28

I don't think protection. It's interesting to see the two progress along different paths from junior level and conjoin on very similar levels at Orica on equal footings. Simon went into pro cycling via British Cycling Olympic Academy programme and Adam the more traditional route like Millar, Wegelius & Tiernan Locke with Dave Raynor fund. This year at least, it's like they've booth stepped up together at the same time. Take from that what you will.
samhocking
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04 Sep 2016 12:04

Definitely grounds to be suspicious of both Yates lads and OBE given the testing history of the likes of Impey and Simon. Although worth noting Simon lost 1min 20secs of his 1min 55secs lead to Chavez on the last climb at a time you know Simon will have been giving everything to try and get a stage win and podium.

Glad to see this thread not being so active. Claims that posts against Sky are not anti-British and are only made because of Sky's PR about clean cycling would be undermined if British OBE riders who were targeted in the clinic more than say Chavez (who is a comparable performer on the same team and not British).
Fergoose
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Re:

04 Sep 2016 12:12

Fergoose wrote:Definitely grounds to be suspicious of both Yates lads and OBE given the testing history of the likes of Impey and Simon. Although worth noting Simon lost 1min 20secs of his 1min 55secs lead to Chavez on the last climb at a time you know Simon will have been giving everything to try and get a stage win and podium.

Glad to see this thread not being so active. Claims that posts against Sky are not anti-British and are only made because of Sky's PR about clean cycling would be undermined if British OBE riders who were targeted in the clinic more than say Chavez (who is a comparable performer on the same team and not British).


There are no grounds to be suspicious, one failed a test. 4 month suspension. The excuses thrown up are BS. Now Orica are full of former dopers so it doesn't take Einstein to see what is going on. Same as all the other teams.
User avatar Benotti69
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04 Sep 2016 12:17

The excuses may be BS but the authorities say they investigated the excuse and found it entirely credible. That has to count for something (even if like me you err on the side of thinking OBE are systematically doping). I remember someone giving Rui Costa a free pass in the clinic for a comparable situation.
Fergoose
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04 Sep 2016 12:17

Orica are such a nobrainer, there's little to discuss.

Shayne Bannan, general manager, was mixing it up with Cecchini and Sassi and the Mapei institute already in the early 2000s.
Neil Stephens is a great lad, but also a known doper.
Same for Matt White.
Those three names tie Orica directly to all the big doping docs and doping scandals in the modern history of procycling.

I know little about Andrew and Gerry Ryan's involvement, but Gerry being a "horse racing tycoon" (wiki), I can't say that sounds reassuring either.
sniper
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Re: Re:

05 Sep 2016 05:38

We can't rely on hard evidence because for dozens of seasons, hard evidence has fallen short through false-negatives, and coverups of true-positives.

Hard evidence has let us down. Waiting for hard evidence led sport into the doped-up mess it is (or was, if that's your take...). Waiting for hard evidence is slow, when the informed speculation has been reliable.

Look at the threads about Iglinsky after LBL. Thenwe get the hard evidence. Look at the threads about Danielson. Thenwe get hard evidence. Look at the threads about Contador in 2010/11. Thenwe get hard evidence. Look at the threads about the Schlecks in 2010. Thenwe get hard evidence. Look at the threads about Ulissi during 2014 Giro. Then we got the hard evidence. Or look at the threads about Menchov, or JTL, or Di Luca, or...

The Clinic has a very good record of speculation. Froome, Quintana, Yateses, Porte, Martin? Just haven't been caught yet. Because history shows that the statement, "haven't been caught yet" is more accurate than "won't be caught (with hard evidence)".

The Clinic is not losing credibility. It may be losing respectability, but that is the consequence of calling spades on fans' favorite riders. Not because the Clinic is wrong.

I sort of agree BUT, there was evidence in these cases for starters Alberto rode for Astana under Bruyneel and was a teammate of Armstrong. That can be evidence, Iglinski again rode for Astana, the schlecks rode for Riss, Ulissi had connections, as far as I know the Yates have never been associated with doping chiefs as you could call them or rode for doping teams same for Martin. Porte, Quintana and Froome do have evidence because of who they have worked under so fair enough to accuse them but when there is no evidence at all it becomes difficult and the threads become pointless. Maybe the Yates bro's are doping but a case needs to be put forward like was done at the start of the Froome thread. I don't see any evidence be it high numbers on climbs, suspect improvement or anything else to accuse them. Surely untill such is the case a specific thread on them is useless?[/quote]

Ok by that logic you can say it looks dodgy for the Yates brothers. Neil Stephens part of the DS team at Orica, rode for ONCE and Festina and has been a DS for Liberty-Seguros(ONCE), Caisse D'Epargne. Matt White also rode under Bruyneel and was a teammate of Armstrong.[/quote]
They weren't DIRECTLY in contact with them though we can hope (and personaly belive) that Neil and Matt have learned from there experience and know teach young promising riders not to get sucked into that vortex. Let's not forget Orica advertises TRANSPARENCY when compared to the Astana teams.[/quote]

Links please.[/quote]
http://www.greenedgecycling.com/news/-anti-doping-expert-to-review-orica-greenedge-cycling-policies-
What doped team whould allow an anti doping expert to review there policies?[/quote]





Any team Vaughters is or was involved in.
purcell
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Re:

05 Sep 2016 11:57

Fergoose wrote:The excuses may be BS but the authorities say they investigated the excuse and found it entirely credible. That has to count for something (even if like me you err on the side of thinking OBE are systematically doping). I remember someone giving Rui Costa a free pass in the clinic for a comparable situation.


The authorities are no longer a source of credibility.

An athlete is responsible for what is found in their system. The authorities did not hand out a 2 year ban. He got 4 months and they blamed a team doctor, because the team said it was the doctors fault. Not credible. If it was credible, the doctor would have been fired.

The clinic is not a singular entity with one voice. Please dont quote it as such. i don't see many rushing to claim Rui Costa as the clean athlete that people wish to claim for Yates bros!
User avatar Benotti69
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05 Sep 2016 22:55

My post in no way quotes the Clinic as a single entity and will continue to post as I see fit. Please don't tell people how to post, that's the role of a moderator but by all means report me if I'm beyond the pale! It's at least the second time you've done it to perfectly level headed posts.

Anyway, I'm erring on the side of thinking something is decidedly fishy with the Yates boys and they are definitely in my list of riders I'd rather see not win (e.g. was happy to see Gesink hold off Yaes a couples of days ago).

You appear to be implying that OBE are being protected by the authorities. If so, can anyone offer a theory for why their young GC riders who:
- have shown talent from an early age
- are supposedly doping and
- are protected

are getting spanked by a comparative donkey like Froome and at the TdF can't break the hold of Sky's super doms?

And what exactly would be the UCIs motivation for protecting or favouring OBE so they can try and outperform Sky through doping, when the UCI is allegedly protecting Sky and favouring then above all else? And surely if they were really protecting OBE the positive test would never have seen the light of day?

Almost by definition if you protect USPS or Sky then that means you must not protect their opposition.
Fergoose
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06 Sep 2016 02:11

To be honest I haven't really heard a lot of we are 'clean' PR from OBE....or it wasn't loud and proud enough to register on my radar, and really it is BS with the positives they have had.

But as a few have pointed out that the people running the team have a doping history and they have had several positives...You know they ain't squeaky clean...

Simon and Adam are doing amazingly well this year, far better than I thought they would....but then they weren't picked by OBE to be pack fodder, they were picked because they were seen as potential grand tour winners...
msjett
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06 Sep 2016 20:58

A lot of these riders fall under the doper umbrellas by relation. No proof really. But who the coaches and the managers are is the problem. It is not good.
User avatar Escarabajo
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Re:

08 Sep 2016 02:22

Fergoose wrote:My post in no way quotes the Clinic as a single entity and will continue to post as I see fit. Please don't tell people how to post, that's the role of a moderator but by all means report me if I'm beyond the pale! It's at least the second time you've done it to perfectly level headed posts.

Anyway, I'm erring on the side of thinking something is decidedly fishy with the Yates boys and they are definitely in my list of riders I'd rather see not win (e.g. was happy to see Gesink hold off Yaes a couples of days ago).

You appear to be implying that OBE are being protected by the authorities. If so, can anyone offer a theory for why their young GC riders who:
- have shown talent from an early age
- are supposedly doping and
- are protected

are getting spanked by a comparative donkey like Froome and at the TdF can't break the hold of Sky's super doms?

And what exactly would be the UCIs motivation for protecting or favouring OBE so they can try and outperform Sky through doping, when the UCI is allegedly protecting Sky and favouring then above all else? And surely if they were really protecting OBE the positive test would never have seen the light of day?

Almost by definition if you protect USPS or Sky then that means you must not protect their opposition.

Not necessarily, there can be more than one "preferred customer".

I doubt that Orica are getting any preferred treatment that at least a few other teams aren't (although it must be said that Russians, Kazakhs and Eastern Europeans seem to be whipping boys of late).

Impey and now Yates getting the all clear does look a little suspicious, but is that so different to the likes of Rogers, LL Sanchez, Henao and others the last couple of years? I strongly doubt that Orica are getting any special protection, just that Stephens and White are old school, and know how to toe the line. The only things they really did "wrong" according to the establishment was ride for Festina and USPS, who were sloppy enough to get caught.

And as you said, look through the junior and U23 palmares of

Chaves
Yates Bros
Durbridge
Hepburn
Ewan
Howson
Cort
Power
Haig

Nothing but quality.

Are they clean? Logical reasoning gives a resounding no, but their young talent would be the envy of most WT teams and other squads aren't throwing up constant positives either apart from the pileup on Astana recently.
User avatar 42x16ss
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Re:

08 Sep 2016 17:35

Fergoose wrote:My post in no way quotes the Clinic as a single entity and will continue to post as I see fit. Please don't tell people how to post, that's the role of a moderator but by all means report me if I'm beyond the pale! It's at least the second time you've done it to perfectly level headed posts.

Anyway, I'm erring on the side of thinking something is decidedly fishy with the Yates boys and they are definitely in my list of riders I'd rather see not win (e.g. was happy to see Gesink hold off Yaes a couples of days ago).

You appear to be implying that OBE are being protected by the authorities. If so, can anyone offer a theory for why their young GC riders who:
- have shown talent from an early age
- are supposedly doping and
- are protected

are getting spanked by a comparative donkey like Froome and at the TdF can't break the hold of Sky's super doms?

And what exactly would be the UCIs motivation for protecting or favouring OBE so they can try and outperform Sky through doping, when the UCI is allegedly protecting Sky and favouring then above all else? And surely if they were really protecting OBE the positive test would never have seen the light of day?

Almost by definition if you protect USPS or Sky then that means you must not protect their opposition.


Dear Fergoose, Merckx, Anquetil, Coppi et al doped. Talent as a junior does not equate to clean.

UCI's motivation is to promote the sport.
User avatar Benotti69
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08 Sep 2016 23:44

Talent as a junior basically means 'one red flag less than froome'
But it doesn't mean no red flags.
OBE and the yates have plenty.
sniper
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01 Oct 2016 15:44

Is there a dedicated Orica thread?

They are very very successful this year, but they also dismissed from MPCC and there's that case with Simon Yates.

Eyebrows are raised on my watch.
User avatar Alexandre B.
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Re:

11 May 2018 17:08

Alexandre B. wrote:Is there a dedicated Orica thread?

They are very very successful this year, but they also dismissed from MPCC and there's that case with Simon Yates.

Eyebrows are raised on my watch.


Yatesy's asthma medication seems to be working well, lately.
User avatar JosephK
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Re:

11 May 2018 20:33

Alexandre B. wrote:Is there a dedicated Orica thread?

They are very very successful this year, but they also dismissed from MPCC and there's that case with Simon Yates.

Eyebrows are raised on my watch.

Surprisingly no. Especially when you consider that White and Stephens rode for USPS/Discovery and Festina respectively. Then there’s the whole Trent Lowe/Del Moral issue at Slipstream, Stephens’ tenure at Abarca and the hiring of riders such as Davis and Kreuziger.

I love the way this team races but they’ve been around the block a few times.
User avatar 42x16ss
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12 May 2018 11:36

Time will tell,especially how far Yates will go in the Giro - Will add that Yates is in his 5th year whch is when you get an idea how far a rider can go in GC - Now of course if Yates loses less than a minute in the ITT, then eyebrows will be raised.
yaco
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Re: Re:

12 May 2018 13:36

42x16ss wrote:
Alexandre B. wrote:Is there a dedicated Orica thread?

They are very very successful this year, but they also dismissed from MPCC and there's that case with Simon Yates.

Eyebrows are raised on my watch.

Surprisingly no. Especially when you consider that White and Stephens rode for USPS/Discovery and Festina respectively. Then there’s the whole Trent Lowe/Del Moral issue at Slipstream, Stephens’ tenure at Abarca and the hiring of riders such as Davis and Kreuziger.

I love the way this team races but they’ve been around the block a few times.


We do have a Chaves thread but looking at MS I'm surprised we don't have a dedicated thread, dodgy DS's, dodgy riders and a dodgy doctor but I do have to agree that watching the way they race is pretty enjoyable
This is Cocaine...This is Chloroform...In short we ride on Dynamite!
User avatar StryderHells
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13 May 2018 00:16

Simon Yates is doping. How else could he be competitive in a grand tour?

Despite the usual suspects?
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13 May 2018 15:04

LOL what a f*cking joke.
"I have seen many lean riders in the peloton, but very few Tour winners."
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