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Masking Agents

The Clinic is the only place on Cyclingnews where you can discuss doping-related issues. Ask questions, discuss positives or improvements to procedures.

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Re: Re:

01 Mar 2017 19:41

Scatto wrote:
King Boonen wrote:[quote="
It's not the translation that's the issue. The issue is it is a secondary source in a foreign language. The primary source is freely available in English, I linked it, but it does not contain the words sniper wants it to so he decided to use something else. Sniper claimed that modified gelatin appears on the WADA list. I provided a link to the WADA list which shows it does not.


The WADA list is not a checklist: there are more substances that are prohibited which are derived from it. The list sniper linked to is the official NADO (Dutch anti-doping authority) interpretation of the WADA code. Most likely other countries will have almost the same checklists.

I am fully aware how the WADA list works thank you very much.

Sniper was attempting to back up the ridiculous accusations that Sagan was using Haribo as a masking agent. He used a Dutch link to obsfucate the fact that a) modified gelatin is not named on the WADA list and b) modified gelatin would would only be banned if it were intraveinously infused as a solution.
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Re: Re:

01 Mar 2017 19:54

Sniper was attempting to back up the ridiculous accusations that Sagan was using Haribo as a masking agent. He used a Dutch link to obsfucate the fact that a) modified gelatin is not named on the WADA list and b) modified gelatin would would only be banned if it were intraveinously infused as a solution.


I don't know why he used the Dutch link, but I suppose it's because he speaks Dutch. I explained the link between the NADO and WADA above. In the NADO-list, which is easy enough to run through Google Translate, modified gelatin is mentioned. Substances that are only sanctioned when administered intravenously are marked. To me it seems that this is not the case for modified gelatin.

I agree this could be much ado about nothing, but the suspicion is not any more ridiculous than doubts on the hair products used by the Festina riders in the 1990's.
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01 Mar 2017 20:01

The Dutch link was valid in my opinion (for what it's worth). 'Plasma expanders' under section S5 in the main english WADA code is 'modified gelatin' under section S5 in the Dutch version. They are the same thing.
But it was the 'modified gelatin' version that was interesting and relevant in the context of the discussion, even though it turned out to be misleading. It's just banter here though, not rigorous academia. I don't see the problem.
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Re: Re:

01 Mar 2017 20:21

Scatto wrote:
King Boonen wrote:[quote="
It's not the translation that's the issue. The issue is it is a secondary source in a foreign language. The primary source is freely available in English, I linked it, but it does not contain the words sniper wants it to so he decided to use something else. Sniper claimed that modified gelatin appears on the WADA list. I provided a link to the WADA list which shows it does not.


The WADA list is not an exhaustive checklist: there are more substances that are prohibited which are derived from it. The list sniper linked to is the official NADO (Dutch anti-doping authority) interpretation of the WADA code for 2017. Most likely other countries will have almost the same, if not exactly the same checklists. I would say this was good research by sniper.

It will probably not be Haribo's gummy bears that contain masking agent, but self-baked candy with modified gelatin, or bears that are laced. Recent medical literature lists ongoing experiments in nano-medicine using modified gelatin (Google Scholar is your friend). The chemical effects may be sped up, or the trick could be to use saliva at the right moment during the doping control.

Also note that gummy bears contain a lot of sugar and taste good. This is another reason, in my humble opinion, to eat a lot of gummy bears.


No as a plasma expander it has to be IV (as in or added to the actual IV fluids). Chewing any amount of modified gelatin is not going to act as a plasma expander, or any masking agent, any more that day beef jerky would.
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01 Mar 2017 20:25

From drugs.com

What are Plasma expanders

Plasma expanders are agents that have relatively high molecular weight and boost the plasma volume by increasing the osmotic pressure. They are used to treat patients who have suffered hemorrhage or shock. Shock occurs due to reduced blood volume (usually due to hemorrhage) and it is necessary to get the blood volume back to normal as quickly as possible.


For doping, they can be used to adjust various blood parameters to help pass say a Biopassport screen.
Does little to mask a urine analysis of anything.
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01 Mar 2017 20:29

Does nobody get the joke that if Haribo gummy bears contain a gelatine that is on the prohibited list as a masking agent, it would make no sense whatsoever to wolfe down two hand fulls after the race as this would surely land him a positive. :rolleyes:
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Re: Re:

01 Mar 2017 20:37

Scatto wrote:
Sniper was attempting to back up the ridiculous accusations that Sagan was using Haribo as a masking agent. He used a Dutch link to obsfucate the fact that a) modified gelatin is not named on the WADA list and b) modified gelatin would would only be banned if it were intraveinously infused as a solution.


I don't know why he used the Dutch link, but I suppose it's because he speaks Dutch. I explained the link between the NADO and WADA above. In the NADO-list, which is easy enough to run through Google Translate, modified gelatin is mentioned. Substances that are only sanctioned when administered intravenously are marked. To me it seems that this is not the case for modified gelatin.

I agree this could be much ado about nothing, but the suspicion is not any more ridiculous than doubts on the hair products used by the Festina riders in the 1990's.


I didn't reply to your comment on the NADO because it is irrelevant. It is the WADA list that matters, not what an NADO decides to list. Again, I will refer you to the actual list, with a link to the latest version, and ask you to highlight the part that you think is relevant:

https://www.wada-ama.org/sites/default/files/resources/files/2016-09-29_-_wada_prohibited_list_2017_eng_final.pdf

With regard the bolded part, I can't believe I'm actually going to ask this. Are you suggesting modified gelatin (and they don't even note the modification...) is banned orally? Are you sure you want to suggest that.
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Re:

01 Mar 2017 20:38

GJB123 wrote:Does nobody get the joke that if Haribo gummy bears contain a gelatine that is on the prohibited list as a masking agent, it would make no sense whatsoever to wolfe down two hand fulls after the race as this would surely land him a positive. :rolleyes:


No I don't get it. Maybe I misunderstand you though. Nobody at any point suggested Haribo's contain anything prohibited. The suggestion was that riders/teams could be lacing gelatine sweets, or the gelatine in and of itself could be a masking agent. Both of which were bonkers ideas.
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Re: Re:

01 Mar 2017 21:06

King Boonen wrote:
Scatto wrote:
Sniper was attempting to back up the ridiculous accusations that Sagan was using Haribo as a masking agent. He used a Dutch link to obsfucate the fact that a) modified gelatin is not named on the WADA list and b) modified gelatin would would only be banned if it were intraveinously infused as a solution.


I don't know why he used the Dutch link, but I suppose it's because he speaks Dutch. I explained the link between the NADO and WADA above. In the NADO-list, which is easy enough to run through Google Translate, modified gelatin is mentioned. Substances that are only sanctioned when administered intravenously are marked. To me it seems that this is not the case for modified gelatin.

I agree this could be much ado about nothing, but the suspicion is not any more ridiculous than doubts on the hair products used by the Festina riders in the 1990's.


I didn't reply to your comment on the NADO because it is irrelevant. It is the WADA list that matters, not what an NADO decides to list. Again, I will refer you to the actual list, with a link to the latest version, and ask you to highlight the part that you think is relevant:

https://www.wada-ama.org/sites/default/files/resources/files/2016-09-29_-_wada_prohibited_list_2017_eng_final.pdf

With regard the bolded part, I can't believe I'm actually going to ask this. Are you suggesting modified gelatin (and they don't even note the modification...) is banned orally? Are you sure you want to suggest that.


Sorry Boonen I know you're not asking me, but if you don't mind, regarding the modified gelatin, it would be under this in the WADA list:

S5 DIURETICS AND MASKING AGENTS
The following diuretics and masking agents are
prohibited, as are other substances with a similar chemical
structure or similar biological effect(s).
Including, but not limited to:
• Desmopressin; probenecid; plasma expanders,
e.g. glycerol and intravenous administration of albumin,
dextran, hydroxyethyl starch and mannitol;


Hydroxyethyl starch plasma expanders are part of the Colloid family of plasma expanders, as is gelatin. The Dutch prohibited list has just legitimately added 'modified gelatin' as an e.g., for Colloid plasma expanders. I'm just googling out of curiousity, I'm not a medic.
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Re: Re:

01 Mar 2017 21:52

Dan2016 wrote:
King Boonen wrote:
Scatto wrote:
Sniper was attempting to back up the ridiculous accusations that Sagan was using Haribo as a masking agent. He used a Dutch link to obsfucate the fact that a) modified gelatin is not named on the WADA list and b) modified gelatin would would only be banned if it were intraveinously infused as a solution.


I don't know why he used the Dutch link, but I suppose it's because he speaks Dutch. I explained the link between the NADO and WADA above. In the NADO-list, which is easy enough to run through Google Translate, modified gelatin is mentioned. Substances that are only sanctioned when administered intravenously are marked. To me it seems that this is not the case for modified gelatin.

I agree this could be much ado about nothing, but the suspicion is not any more ridiculous than doubts on the hair products used by the Festina riders in the 1990's.


I didn't reply to your comment on the NADO because it is irrelevant. It is the WADA list that matters, not what an NADO decides to list. Again, I will refer you to the actual list, with a link to the latest version, and ask you to highlight the part that you think is relevant:

https://www.wada-ama.org/sites/default/files/resources/files/2016-09-29_-_wada_prohibited_list_2017_eng_final.pdf

With regard the bolded part, I can't believe I'm actually going to ask this. Are you suggesting modified gelatin (and they don't even note the modification...) is banned orally? Are you sure you want to suggest that.


Sorry Boonen I know you're not asking me, but if you don't mind, regarding the modified gelatin, it would be under this in the WADA list:

S5 DIURETICS AND MASKING AGENTS
The following diuretics and masking agents are
prohibited, as are other substances with a similar chemical
structure or similar biological effect(s).
Including, but not limited to:
• Desmopressin; probenecid; plasma expanders,
e.g. glycerol and intravenous administration of albumin,
dextran, hydroxyethyl starch and mannitol;


Hydroxyethyl starch plasma expanders are part of the Colloid family of plasma expanders, as is gelatin. The Dutch prohibited list has just legitimately added 'modified gelatin' as an e.g., for Colloid plasma expanders. I'm just googling out of curiousity, I'm not a medic.


That's fine, you are correct and that's exactly the part I wanted Scatto to find. You've even bolded the extremely relevant part to this discussion which is what myself, and Catwhoorg have been driving at and which Scatto said he didn't think applied. It must be intravenously administrated to be doping.

To get back to the reason this started. A Dutch language link was used to claim that it is a named substance on the WADA list. It isn't, it is a similar substance to those named used in the same way. The Dutch language link was also, I believe, used to obfuscate the fact that it is only doping when used IV. This seemed to work on Scatto as they said that that based on that link they thought that the IV adminstration route did not apply to modified gelatin. The fact that the word gelatin appeared on the Dutch link was being used to add weight to the ridiculous idea that Haribo (or fake Haribo) are being used as a masking agent. If the actual, English language WADA prohibited list had been used this would have been shown to be rubbish.


This problem has cropped up before in the clinic. People twist a foreign language link or use snippets to try and reinforce a point that the link does not reinforce. It's particularly obvious in this case as the WADA list is freely available to anyone and everyone.
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01 Mar 2017 22:09

You're splitting hairs KB.
More important than whether it's doping is whether it's a masking agent.
That was Scatto's original point, iirc.

Well done to Scatto for creating this brainstorm and for not giving in despite some weird attempts at killing the debate and some posters making and taking it awkardly personal.

Good work @cathwoorg and @dan2016 for expanding, and for doing so in normal fashion without adhoms and belittling comments.
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01 Mar 2017 22:25

sniper, are you of the opinion that eating gummy bear works as a masking agent?
Or, on the other hand, are you now sure that eating gummy bears cannot work as a masking agent?
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Re:

01 Mar 2017 22:32

sniper wrote:You're splitting hairs KB.
More important than whether it's doping is whether it's a masking agent.
That was Scatto's original point, iirc.

Well done to Scatto for creating this brainstorm and for not giving in despite some weird attempts at killing the debate and some posters making and taking it awkardly personal.

Good work @cathwoorg and @dan2016 for expanding, and for doing so in normal fashion without adhoms and belittling comments.



:eek: :eek: :confused:

You Sir, are quite unbelievable.

Please do not take that as a compliment ;)

Nice job in getting right to the facts KB and shutting this nonsense down.
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01 Mar 2017 22:35

Not sure if serious guys............
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Re:

01 Mar 2017 22:40

Netserk wrote:sniper, are you of the opinion that eating gummy bear works as a masking agent?
Or, on the other hand, are you now sure that eating gummy bears cannot work as a masking agent?


IMO, It's the wrong question. For the discussion to be legitimate, someone has to show some kind of evidence that either gummi bears contain a masking agent, or that Sagan's gummies were laced with one, and the particular agent is able to act in seconds or a couple of minutes.

Further, there would need to be evidence that either way, the masking agent was either legal or undetectable. Since he wolfed them down before a doping control.

It might also be good to outline why he needs both a finishing bottle and a motor. Is he that bad?

Good luck.
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Re:

01 Mar 2017 23:17

Red Rick wrote:Not sure if serious guys............

Unfortunately I think that it is.
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01 Mar 2017 23:32

Van Avermaet is obviously on gummy bears too. How else would he beat Sagan?
Last edited by hrotha on 01 Mar 2017 23:49, edited 1 time in total.
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Re:

01 Mar 2017 23:38

hrotha wrote:Van Avermaet is obviously on gummi bears too. How else would he beat Sagan?

Gummy worms. More masking agent.
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Re:

02 Mar 2017 00:07

hrotha wrote:Van Avermaet is obviously on gummi bears too. How else would he beat Sagan?

It is said GVA has a cortisone TUE for an infection on his feet. Didn't look it up though. Also, he was seeing a doctor that applied ozone therapy to cyclocross riders. As the evidence was lacking, he was cleared from the case.

As for the IV administration: we're here to learn... some apparently to bully and test. The NADO list is certainly valid for Dutch riders or races in the Netherlands, so don't look for deep plots - they should have added that it is IV-only, like they did with other PED or masking agents.

I did look into some literature and found this: http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0141813015005413

Somebody more knowledgeable than me should analyse this, but it suggests that gelatin is modified to carry novel drugs and have both an immediate surface effect and a more sustained effect. Oral administration is one of the routes mentioned - although arguably useless as a plasma expander.

Disclaimer: I like GVA and Peter Sagan, but I'm not ready to believe there is no more blunt doping.
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02 Mar 2017 00:32

Well clearly that list on the Dutch NADO website isn't valid if it doesn't mention IV administration as it's wrong.

What do gelatin nano particles have to do with masking agents?
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