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Masking Agents

The Clinic is the only place on Cyclingnews where you can discuss doping-related issues. Ask questions, discuss positives or improvements to procedures.

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Masking Agents

01 Mar 2017 16:51

sniper wrote:@dan:
as i posted earlier (and it was remarkably deleted by a mod), modified gelatine is a masking agent and included as such on WADAs prohibited list.
<link removed by mods>
you also overlook that Sagan may have doped in the final kilometers.
just saying, it's not so mad.
I've seen madder. :D


Here is a link to the WADA prohibited list:

https://www.wada-ama.org/sites/default/files/resources/files/2016-09-29_-_wada_prohibited_list_2017_eng_final.pdf

Could you please quote the part where modified gelatine is included. Thanks.
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Re: Re:

01 Mar 2017 16:59

King Boonen wrote:
sniper wrote:@dan:
as i posted earlier (and it was remarkably deleted by a mod), modified gelatine is a masking agent and included as such on WADAs prohibited list.
<link removed by mods>
you also overlook that Sagan may have doped in the final kilometers.
just saying, it's not so mad.
I've seen madder. :D


Here is a link to the WADA prohibited list:

https://www.wada-ama.org/sites/default/files/resources/files/2016-09-29_-_wada_prohibited_list_2017_eng_final.pdf

Could you please quote the part where modified gelatine is included. Thanks.

From the link I posted (which is the Dutch version of the 2017 WADA prohibited list, importantly with all products spelled out, unlike the link you posted)
S5. Diuretica en maskerende middelen = Diuretics and masking agents
(...)
Gelatine, gemodificeerd = modified gelatine
sniper
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Re: Re:

01 Mar 2017 17:00

King Boonen wrote:
sniper wrote:@dan:
as i posted earlier (and it was remarkably deleted by a mod), modified gelatine is a masking agent and included as such on WADAs prohibited list.
<link removed by mods>
you also overlook that Sagan may have doped in the final kilometers.
just saying, it's not so mad.
I've seen madder. :D


Here is a link to the WADA prohibited list:

https://www.wada-ama.org/sites/default/files/resources/files/2016-09-29_-_wada_prohibited_list_2017_eng_final.pdf

Could you please quote the part where modified gelatine is included. Thanks.


I'm more interested in where "modified gelatin" appears in Gummi Bears. Whatever "modified gelatin" is...

https://www.haribo.com/enCA/consumer-information/gummies/ingredients.html

Maybe this is one of Sagan's gummies...

Image
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Masking Agents

01 Mar 2017 17:11

My question - Accept that modified gelatine is a masking agent and according to Sniper is on the WADA prohibited list - We know that gummy bears are eaten by athletes of all persuasions - So why are there no positive tests ?
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Re: Sagan Clean?

01 Mar 2017 17:25

Don't know what Sniper posted earlier and thought links in another language had to be translated.
However here is the 2017 WADA prohibited list. No mention of gelatin (modified or otherwise).

http://www.usada.org/wp-content/uploads/wada-2017-prohibited-list-en.pdf
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Re: Re:

01 Mar 2017 18:13

sniper wrote:@dan:
as i posted earlier (and it was remarkably deleted by a mod), modified gelatine is a masking agent and included as such on WADAs prohibited list.
<link removed by mods>
you also overlook that Sagan may have doped in the final kilometers, finish bottles etc., you've no doubt heard of those. So there might be a motive for masking post-finish.
And well, this being procycling...just saying, while it's definitely mad (we agree), maybe that's procycling for you.

And of course all usual disclaimers apply. :D


(Leaving Sagan out of this entirely now of course as per mod's request)

Sniper, you got me intrigued there with the 'modified gelatin' thing. I couldn't get that link to tell me anything so I did a quick google. Turns out 'modified gelatin' is indeed considered doping and is banned. Interesting find. But what is 'modified gelatin'? Could it be drug laced (modified) gummy bears (gelatin)? Well, erm, no! Turns out it is an intravenous 'plasma volume expander' of the 'Colloids' variety. It's serious stuff. It's not a packet of little chewy bears.

Your point about riders using finish bottles etc., is a fair one, so you are right of course that riders may still have need to mask. Emphasis on 'may'. I just think it's extremely unlikely the very top riders are still taking that risk. Would be monumentaly stupid for minimal reward vs a big dose of legal options like high-dose caffeine and glucose tablets and whatever else, maybe a nice little pinch of Tramadol.
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01 Mar 2017 18:26

Quoting fro 2017 WADA code section S5 on diuretics and masking agents:

The following diuretics and masking agents are prohibited, as are other substances with a similar chemical
structure or similar biological effect(s).

Including, but not limited to:
• Desmopressin; probenecid; plasma expanders, e.g. glycerol and intravenous administration of albumin, dextran, hydroxyethyl starch and mannitol;
• Acetazolamide; amiloride; bumetanide; canrenone; chlortalidone; etacrynic acid; furosemide; indapamide; metolazone; spironolactone; thiazides, e.g. bendroflumethiazide, chlorothiazide and hydrochlorothiazide; triamterene and vaptans, e.g. tolvaptan.

Except:
• Drospirenone; pamabrom; and ophthalmic use of carbonic anhydrase inhibitors (e.g. dorzolamide, brinzolamide);
• Local administration of felypressin in dental anaesthesia.


The key point that plasma expanders have to been given via IV. Modified gelatin could act as one (depending on how and what was modified). Oral eating of gummies is not even close to a IV infusion.

Gelatin is a protein. It will be digested as such in the stomach down to peptides and eventually the amino acids.
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01 Mar 2017 18:44

I vote for renaming the thread "Gummy Bears".
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Re:

01 Mar 2017 18:53

Netserk wrote:I vote for renaming the thread "Gummy Bears".


I formally second that motion.
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01 Mar 2017 19:02

Not gonna happen. :)
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01 Mar 2017 19:08

Thanks for splitting the topic and saving my post :)
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Re: Re:

01 Mar 2017 19:12

sniper wrote:
King Boonen wrote:
sniper wrote:@dan:
as i posted earlier (and it was remarkably deleted by a mod), modified gelatine is a masking agent and included as such on WADAs prohibited list.
<link removed by mods>
you also overlook that Sagan may have doped in the final kilometers.
just saying, it's not so mad.
I've seen madder. :D


Here is a link to the WADA prohibited list:

https://www.wada-ama.org/sites/default/files/resources/files/2016-09-29_-_wada_prohibited_list_2017_eng_final.pdf

Could you please quote the part where modified gelatine is included. Thanks.

From the link I posted (which is the Dutch version of the 2017 WADA prohibited list, importantly with all products spelled out, unlike the link you posted)
S5. Diuretica en maskerende middelen = Diuretics and masking agents
(...)
Gelatine, gemodificeerd = modified gelatine

Sorry no, this bollocks needs to stop. Firstly, the posting of non-English links has been highlighted again and again as a deliberate strategy to mislead. I have given you a link to the actual WADA list, show where it says gelatine is banned.

Secondly the fact that you think a list exists where all products are listed shows how truly clueless you are about how the list actually works. The whole point of half of the wording in the actual list is that you can't have a list where all products are listed.
Vincenzo Nibali:
"I know how to ride a bike"

Reduce your carbon footprint, ride steel.
User avatar King Boonen
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Re:

01 Mar 2017 19:15

Irondan wrote:Not gonna happen. :)

:D
Dan2016
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Re: Re:

01 Mar 2017 19:16

King Boonen wrote:
sniper wrote:
King Boonen wrote:
sniper wrote:@dan:
as i posted earlier (and it was remarkably deleted by a mod), modified gelatine is a masking agent and included as such on WADAs prohibited list.
<link removed by mods>
you also overlook that Sagan may have doped in the final kilometers.
just saying, it's not so mad.
I've seen madder. :D


Here is a link to the WADA prohibited list:

https://www.wada-ama.org/sites/default/files/resources/files/2016-09-29_-_wada_prohibited_list_2017_eng_final.pdf

Could you please quote the part where modified gelatine is included. Thanks.

From the link I posted (which is the Dutch version of the 2017 WADA prohibited list, importantly with all products spelled out, unlike the link you posted)
S5. Diuretica en maskerende middelen = Diuretics and masking agents
(...)
Gelatine, gemodificeerd = modified gelatine

Sorry no, this bollocks needs to stop. Firstly, the posting of non-English links has been highlighted again and again as a deliberate strategy to mislead. I have given you a link to the actual WADA list, show where it says gelatine is banned.

Secondly the fact that you think a list exists where all products are listed shows how truly clueless you are about how the list actually works. The whole point of half of the wording in the actual list is that you can't have a list where all products are listed.

I've only allowed this link to remain because when I open it in my google chrome browser it automatically translates to english. Granted, I didn't spend much time reading it other than to make sure it was in english. If it's mumbo jumbo but in the english language then it will be deleted. If it's comprehensible then it will remain. If anyone is having an issue reading the translation please let me know in a report or PM.

Cheers
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"Nothing seems to blind peeps as much as patriotism does it!"
User avatar Irondan
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Re: Re:

01 Mar 2017 19:17

red_flanders wrote:
King Boonen wrote:
sniper wrote:@dan:
as i posted earlier (and it was remarkably deleted by a mod), modified gelatine is a masking agent and included as such on WADAs prohibited list.
<link removed by mods>
you also overlook that Sagan may have doped in the final kilometers.
just saying, it's not so mad.
I've seen madder. :D


Here is a link to the WADA prohibited list:

https://www.wada-ama.org/sites/default/files/resources/files/2016-09-29_-_wada_prohibited_list_2017_eng_final.pdf

Could you please quote the part where modified gelatine is included. Thanks.


I'm more interested in where "modified gelatin" appears in Gummi Bears. Whatever "modified gelatin" is...

https://www.haribo.com/enCA/consumer-information/gummies/ingredients.html

Maybe this is one of Sagan's gummies...

Image

Its succinylated gelatin and it's infused intraveinously in solution as a temporary plasma replacement. Isoplex is a product licensed in the U.K.
Vincenzo Nibali:
"I know how to ride a bike"

Reduce your carbon footprint, ride steel.
User avatar King Boonen
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Re: Re:

01 Mar 2017 19:20

Irondan wrote:
King Boonen wrote:
sniper wrote:
King Boonen wrote:
sniper wrote:@dan:
as i posted earlier (and it was remarkably deleted by a mod), modified gelatine is a masking agent and included as such on WADAs prohibited list.
<link removed by mods>
you also overlook that Sagan may have doped in the final kilometers.
just saying, it's not so mad.
I've seen madder. :D


Here is a link to the WADA prohibited list:

https://www.wada-ama.org/sites/default/files/resources/files/2016-09-29_-_wada_prohibited_list_2017_eng_final.pdf

Could you please quote the part where modified gelatine is included. Thanks.

From the link I posted (which is the Dutch version of the 2017 WADA prohibited list, importantly with all products spelled out, unlike the link you posted)
S5. Diuretica en maskerende middelen = Diuretics and masking agents
(...)
Gelatine, gemodificeerd = modified gelatine

Sorry no, this bollocks needs to stop. Firstly, the posting of non-English links has been highlighted again and again as a deliberate strategy to mislead. I have given you a link to the actual WADA list, show where it says gelatine is banned.

Secondly the fact that you think a list exists where all products are listed shows how truly clueless you are about how the list actually works. The whole point of half of the wording in the actual list is that you can't have a list where all products are listed.

I've only allowed this link to remain because when I open it in my google chrome browser it automatically translates to english. Granted, I didn't spend much time reading it other than to make sure it was in english. If it's mumbo jumbo but in the english language then it will be deleted. If it's comprehensible then it will remain. If anyone is having an issue reading the translation please let me know in a report or PM.

Cheers

It's not the translation that's the issue. The issue is it is a secondary source in a foreign language. The primary source is freely available in English, I linked it, but it does not contain the words sniper wants it to so he decided to use something else. Sniper claimed that modified gelatin appears on the WADA list. I provided a link to the WADA list which shows it does not.
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Reduce your carbon footprint, ride steel.
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Re: Re:

01 Mar 2017 19:22

Got it, thanks for the clarification.

As it's in english elsewhere we will remove the link.
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01 Mar 2017 19:31

Where does Gummy Bears = prohibited substances fit on a scale of the Moon landing was faked, the Earth is flat, Elvis is alive etc. ?
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Re: Re:

01 Mar 2017 19:35

King Boonen wrote:[quote="
It's not the translation that's the issue. The issue is it is a secondary source in a foreign language. The primary source is freely available in English, I linked it, but it does not contain the words sniper wants it to so he decided to use something else. Sniper claimed that modified gelatin appears on the WADA list. I provided a link to the WADA list which shows it does not.


The WADA list is not an exhaustive checklist: there are more substances that are prohibited which are derived from it. The list sniper linked to is the official NADO (Dutch anti-doping authority) interpretation of the WADA code for 2017. Most likely other countries will have almost the same, if not exactly the same checklists. I would say this was good research by sniper.

It will probably not be Haribo's gummy bears that contain masking agent, but self-baked candy with modified gelatin, or bears that are laced. Recent medical literature lists ongoing experiments in nano-medicine using modified gelatin (Google Scholar is your friend). The chemical effects may be sped up, or the trick could be to use saliva at the right moment during the doping control.

Also note that gummy bears contain a lot of sugar and taste good. This is another reason, in my humble opinion, to eat a lot of gummy bears.
Last edited by Scatto on 01 Mar 2017 19:46, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Re:

01 Mar 2017 19:40

Scatto wrote:
King Boonen wrote:[quote="
It's not the translation that's the issue. The issue is it is a secondary source in a foreign language. The primary source is freely available in English, I linked it, but it does not contain the words sniper wants it to so he decided to use something else. Sniper claimed that modified gelatin appears on the WADA list. I provided a link to the WADA list which shows it does not.


The WADA list is not a checklist: there are more substances that are prohibited which are derived from it. The list sniper linked to is the official NADO (Dutch anti-doping authority) interpretation of the WADA code. Most likely other countries will have almost the same checklists.

If that's so then why didn't he call it the "NADO interpretation of the WADA code"? Instead he said this:
and included as such on WADAs prohibited list.

Seriously, you can't post a link that needs to be translated and call it the WADA prohibited list when in fact it's a link to an altogether different interpretation of the WADA prohibited list.
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