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Masking Agents

The Clinic is the only place on Cyclingnews where you can discuss doping-related issues. Ask questions, discuss positives or improvements to procedures.

Moderators: Irondan, Eshnar, Red Rick, Valv.Piti, Pricey_sky, Tonton, King Boonen

Re: Re:

02 Mar 2017 01:16

Out of curiosity I just went down the rabbit hole and after a very circuitous route involving plasma expanders, oral plasma expanders (they exist: 'Plasmavol', based on mannitol), then mannitol itself, diuretics as masking agents and so on...I somehow eventually ended up with this, a fortuitous warning to everyone never to buy sugar-free Haribo's!:
https://www.amazon.com/Haribo-Sugar-Free-Gummy-Bears/dp/B008JELLCA
Dan2016
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02 Mar 2017 01:51

Mannitol is an IV plasma expander. I don't know what plasmavol is but I would be very, very skeptical. It's used as a sweetener.
I remember those sugar free gummy bear reviews, they do not sound pleasant!
Vincenzo Nibali:
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Reduce your carbon footprint, ride steel.
User avatar King Boonen
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02 Mar 2017 13:00

I asked an expert, he said:
1/ It's debatable whether gelatin is really forbidden by WADA 2017 - although some components are (glycerol).
2/ It's unsure that it would be a good masking agent.
3/ ... but it's a good question (victory!).

Nothing about IV or oral application, but the option was left open that the bears already contain modified gelatin.

Kudos to Dan2016 for the in-depth review of the product.
User avatar Scatto
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Re:

02 Mar 2017 13:14

Scatto wrote:I asked an expert, he said:
1/ It's debatable whether gelatin is really forbidden by WADA 2017 - although some components are (glycerol).
2/ It's unsure that it would be a good masking agent.
3/ ... but it's a good question (victory!).

Nothing about IV or oral application, but the option was left open that the bears already contain modified gelatin.

Kudos to Dan2016 for the in-depth review of the product.


Edit: I can't be bothered anymore. This is beyond stupid.
Vincenzo Nibali:
"I know how to ride a bike"

Reduce your carbon footprint, ride steel.
User avatar King Boonen
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Re: Re:

02 Mar 2017 15:00

King Boonen wrote:
Scatto wrote:I asked an expert, he said:
1/ It's debatable whether gelatin is really forbidden by WADA 2017 - although some components are (glycerol).
2/ It's unsure that it would be a good masking agent.
3/ ... but it's a good question (victory!).

Nothing about IV or oral application, but the option was left open that the bears already contain modified gelatin.

Kudos to Dan2016 for the in-depth review of the product.


Edit: I can't be bothered anymore. This is beyond stupid.


Why so impolite? I asked an expert, I don't know who you are but I would say expert's opinions matter.
User avatar Scatto
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02 Mar 2017 15:16

So Gummy Bears is a proven masking agent - So why aren't all cyclists eating gummy bears ?
yaco
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Re: Re:

02 Mar 2017 15:24

Scatto wrote:
King Boonen wrote:
Scatto wrote:I asked an expert, he said:
1/ It's debatable whether gelatin is really forbidden by WADA 2017 - although some components are (glycerol).
2/ It's unsure that it would be a good masking agent.
3/ ... but it's a good question (victory!).

Nothing about IV or oral application, but the option was left open that the bears already contain modified gelatin.

Kudos to Dan2016 for the in-depth review of the product.


Edit: I can't be bothered anymore. This is beyond stupid.


Why so impolite? I asked an expert, I don't know who you are but I would say expert's opinions matter.

I can't speak for KB but I'll say this, it would help if you let people know what field this person is an expert in, what's their qualifications and specifically what "question(s)" did you ask them?

Just stating that "I asked an expert" does not mean that you actually asked an expert anything, as this is the clinic, people say all sorts of stuff to further their agenda.

The clinic works well with hard data and facts, not so well with he said, she said.
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User avatar Irondan
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02 Mar 2017 16:24

Hahahaha! You guys are actually debating about gummy bear doping!?!?

John Swanson
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Re:

02 Mar 2017 16:27

ScienceIsCool wrote:Hahahaha! You guys are actually debating about gummy bear doping!?!?

John Swanson

No, not everyone.

There's still a member that's hung up on furthering this ridiculous conspiracy theory though. :rolleyes:
Darryl Webster wrote:
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User avatar Irondan
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Re: Re:

02 Mar 2017 17:50

Irondan

I can't speak for KB but I'll say this, it would help if you let people know what field this person is an expert in, what's their qualifications and specifically what "question(s)" did you ask them?

Just stating that "I asked an expert" does not mean that you actually asked an expert anything, as this is the clinic, people say all sorts of stuff to further their agenda.

The clinic works well with hard data and facts, not so well with he said, she said.


The lab director at uni. I asked if gummy bears were any good to mask doping. He didn't say yes or no, as I described above, but he was kind enough to answer. Maybe at some point we'll hear more of him and I will let you know.

It gets a bit comical when you start suspecting forum posters of cheating in a topic on suspicion :D
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Re: Re:

02 Mar 2017 17:54

Scatto wrote:
Irondan

I can't speak for KB but I'll say this, it would help if you let people know what field this person is an expert in, what's their qualifications and specifically what "question(s)" did you ask them?

Just stating that "I asked an expert" does not mean that you actually asked an expert anything, as this is the clinic, people say all sorts of stuff to further their agenda.

The clinic works well with hard data and facts, not so well with he said, she said.


The lab director at uni. I asked if gummy bears were any good to mask doping. He didn't say yes or no, as I described above, but he was kind enough to answer. Maybe at some point we'll hear more of him and I will let you know.

It gets a bit comical when you start suspecting forum posters of cheating in a topic on suspicion :D

This is the second time you've accused me of saying something I didn't say. :confused:

I didn't accuse you of anything. If you took what I said the wrong way that's on you.

Perhaps the clinic is not your forte, you seem overly sensitive to feedback to your comments...

BTW: Some forum posters lie all the time, it's as common as tying your shoe.
Darryl Webster wrote:
"Nothing seems to blind peeps as much as patriotism does it!"
User avatar Irondan
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Re:

02 Mar 2017 17:55

yaco wrote:So Gummy Bears is a proven masking agent - So why aren't all cyclists eating gummy bears ?


It's not proven.
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Re:

02 Mar 2017 17:58

Scatto wrote:I asked an expert, he said:
1/ It's debatable whether gelatin is really forbidden by WADA 2017 - although some components are (glycerol).
2/ It's unsure that it would be a good masking agent.
3/ ... but it's a good question (victory!).

Nothing about IV or oral application, but the option was left open that the bears already contain modified gelatin.

Kudos to Dan2016 for the in-depth review of the product.


Thanks Scatto, I'm not sure I warrant any credit for reviewing anything though. The idea of gummy bear doping really really appealed to my sense of humour, I love the idea, so I went digging hoping upon hope that my incredulity could be proved wrong. I like being proven wrong more than being right and the most apparently bonkers ideas are usually a good test of personal assumptions and bias. Unfortunately the best I came up with was, erm...a link to sugar-free gummy bears' impact on ones love life, and a bodybuilders supplement that makes you... like...totally ripped...crazy vascularity dude...grrr...yeah awesome.
The gummy bear doping theory is dead...unless it's not, or maybe or something! R.I.P I think or maybe not...
Dan2016
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Re: Re:

02 Mar 2017 18:01

Irondan wrote:
Scatto wrote:
Irondan

I can't speak for KB but I'll say this, it would help if you let people know what field this person is an expert in, what's their qualifications and specifically what "question(s)" did you ask them?

Just stating that "I asked an expert" does not mean that you actually asked an expert anything, as this is the clinic, people say all sorts of stuff to further their agenda.

The clinic works well with hard data and facts, not so well with he said, she said.


The lab director at uni. I asked if gummy bears were any good to mask doping. He didn't say yes or no, as I described above, but he was kind enough to answer. Maybe at some point we'll hear more of him and I will let you know.

It gets a bit comical when you start suspecting forum posters of cheating in a topic on suspicion :D

This is the second time you've accused me of saying something I didn't say. :confused:

I didn't accuse you of anything. If you took what I said the wrong way that's on you.

Perhaps the clinic is not your forte, you seem overly sensitive to feedback to your comments...


Ok, sorry if I misinterpreted "people say all sorts of stuff to further their agenda". I like feedback on my comments, though, and I've learned a lot already.
User avatar Scatto
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Re: Re:

02 Mar 2017 18:02

Dan2016 wrote:
Scatto wrote:I asked an expert, he said:
1/ It's debatable whether gelatin is really forbidden by WADA 2017 - although some components are (glycerol).
2/ It's unsure that it would be a good masking agent.
3/ ... but it's a good question (victory!).

Nothing about IV or oral application, but the option was left open that the bears already contain modified gelatin.

Kudos to Dan2016 for the in-depth review of the product.


Thanks Scatto, I'm not sure I warrant any credit for reviewing anything though. The idea of gummy bear doping really really appealed to my sense of humour, I love the idea, so I went digging hoping upon hope that my incredulity could be proved wrong. I like being proven wrong more than being right and the most apparently bonkers ideas are usually a good test of personal assumptions and bias. Unfortunately the best I came up with was, erm...a link to sugar-free gummy bears' impact on ones love life, and a bodybuilders supplement that makes you... like...totally ripped...crazy vascularity dude...grrr...yeah awesome.
The gummy bear doping theory is dead...unless it's not, or maybe or something! R.I.P I think or maybe not...


We think alike ;)
User avatar Scatto
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02 Mar 2017 18:10

Even if gummy bears had masking effects, you would need a couple of hours to digest them, so eating them minutes before being tested would have no effect.
carolina
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02 Mar 2017 18:21

Masking agents or gummy bear thread? I'm somewhat more interested in actual masking agents (Epitest? Probenecid? Hep?), and am curious if anyone knows if IEF is being bandied about for future testing re. gene doping since I know genetic manipulation been suggested (not sure how seriously, granted) in the case of an athlete of the Dawg's transformation.
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Re:

02 Mar 2017 18:24

GraftPunk wrote:Masking agents or gummy bear thread? I'm somewhat more interested in actual masking agents (Epitest? Probenecid? Hep?), and am curious if anyone knows if IEF is being bandied about for future testing re. gene doping since I know genetic manipulation been suggested (not sure how seriously, granted) in the case of an athlete of the Dawg's transformation.

This is the Masking Agent thread.
Darryl Webster wrote:
"Nothing seems to blind peeps as much as patriotism does it!"
User avatar Irondan
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Re: Re:

02 Mar 2017 18:26

Cut for brevity:
King Boonen wrote:
Dan2016 wrote:
King Boonen wrote:
Scatto wrote:



This problem has cropped up before in the clinic. People twist a foreign language link or use snippets to try and reinforce a point that the link does not reinforce. It's particularly obvious in this case as the WADA list is freely available to anyone and everyone.


(Ignore me, nothing further to add) Just acknowledging your reply Boonen, cheers. Didn't know some posters were known to deliberately twist foreign links to reinforce their point, I'm not here enough. I must admit, rather than being bad, that sounds like a good bit of comical mischief to me. I'm probably in the minority though.
Dan2016
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06 Jun 2017 17:02

Yet more Haibo doping! These people know no shame!
Jacopo Guarnieri‏
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That moment you realize you left home ALL your Haribo and still have a full week of racing. :cry: :cry: :cry: @dauphine

5:30 pm - 6 Jun 2017
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