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CMS Doping in sport revelations/discussion

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Re:

06 Mar 2017 18:38

Dan2016 wrote:Just as a mental exercise I thought I'd do a complete about-turn and try and test my own bias towards Sky. I've always thought they were 'at it', so everything that's happening now is certainly confirmation bias, regardless of the truth or otherwise.

I've just googled Kenalog and came across this forum thread for hayfever sufferers discussing it and how much it has helped them (if you don't want to read it, the synopsis is that it's really an extremely effective treatment, life changing for some, causing desperation when it became not so readily prescribed in the UK):
https://forums.netdoctor.co.uk/discussion/44394/hayfever-injection-kenalog

So, playing devils advocate for a moment, is it possible we have gotten a little carried away with the confirmation bias of this Sky scandal? It all started with the leaking of Wiggins TUE's for Kenalog. Even if he only had relatively mild asthma and niggling seasonal hayfever, Kenalog could have been a legit and logical prescription. The patients on the forum I linked above attest to that.

The 60 - 70 vials? Well, anecdotally, I would say a good 50% of all the cyclists I know suffer from seasonal hayfever. Let's guestimate that Sky + BC Olympic Programme is approx 200 riders. So it wouldn't be complete fantasy to assume a fair number of them suffer seasonal hayfever. Now what if there was a drug that after a single treatment just nipped the problem in the bud, no need to think about it for the rest of the year? Well Kenalog does exactly that so let's have some in our medical store room.

The jiffy bag? God knows. Bizarre story and explanations. Clearly multiple lies going on around this. Could it have been Kenalog for Wiggins for the reasons above but using it at that time wasn't allowed, would've incurred a ban? In other words, a legit non-PED reason, but a timing that would've flouted PED rules? Seems possible to me (devils advocate). They certainly can't admit that now though.

If any of you have been involved in any kind of legal proceedings you'll probably have experienced how quickly the intricacies of the truth of the matter get lost. Lies are sometimes used just to try and prove what is actually true, or at least not to weaken your position in proving the truth. I wonder if this is an irony in this whole Sky fiasco. They've been 'at it', but they are being ripped to shreds for something that was not actually 'it'. Generally guilty but specifically innocent, if that makes sense.

Just me waffling out loud, so to speak. I'll jump back in with the Sky bashing shortly. :)


i think this has been covered...the jiffy bag is now irrelevant...as is even the kenalog

if not sanctionable and otherwise innocent...how did we end up here?

but here we are...

and if this is the mess they are in due to non-sanctionable stuff then...well...the fridge is full and the bottle opener on stand-by :)

Edit: for the avoidance of doubt, that's my fridge btw...who knows what you'll find in theirs :)
gillan1969
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Re:

06 Mar 2017 18:47

Dan2016 wrote:Just as a mental exercise I thought I'd do a complete about-turn and try and test my own bias towards Sky. I've always thought they were 'at it', so everything that's happening now is certainly confirmation bias, regardless of the truth or otherwise.

I've just googled Kenalog and came across this forum thread for hayfever sufferers discussing it and how much it has helped them (if you don't want to read it, the synopsis is that it's really an extremely effective treatment, life changing for some, causing desperation when it became not so readily prescribed in the UK):
https://forums.netdoctor.co.uk/discussion/44394/hayfever-injection-kenalog

So, playing devils advocate for a moment, is it possible we have gotten a little carried away with the confirmation bias of this Sky scandal? It all started with the leaking of Wiggins TUE's for Kenalog. Even if he only had relatively mild asthma and niggling seasonal hayfever, Kenalog could have been a legit and logical prescription. The patients on the forum I linked above attest to that.

The 60 - 70 vials? Well, anecdotally, I would say a good 50% of all the cyclists I know suffer from seasonal hayfever. Let's guestimate that Sky + BC Olympic Programme is approx 200 riders. So it wouldn't be complete fantasy to assume a fair number of them suffer seasonal hayfever. Now what if there was a drug that after a single treatment just nipped the problem in the bud, no need to think about it for the rest of the year? Well Kenalog does exactly that so let's have some in our medical store room.

The jiffy bag? God knows. Bizarre story and explanations. Clearly multiple lies going on around this. Could it have been Kenalog for Wiggins for the reasons above but using it at that time wasn't allowed, would've incurred a ban? In other words, a legit non-PED reason, but a timing that would've flouted PED rules? Seems possible to me (devils advocate). They certainly can't admit that now though.

If any of you have been involved in any kind of legal proceedings you'll probably have experienced how quickly the intricacies of the truth of the matter get lost. Lies are sometimes used just to try and prove what is actually true, or at least not to weaken your position in proving the truth. I wonder if this is an irony in this whole Sky fiasco. They've been 'at it', but they are being ripped to shreds for something that was not actually 'it'. Generally guilty but specifically innocent, if that makes sense.

Just me waffling out loud, so to speak. I'll jump back in with the Sky bashing shortly. :)


An honorable exercise in self-examination. However, William of Ockham says 'hi'.
Electress
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Re:

06 Mar 2017 18:54

Dan2016 wrote:I can't get my head around the nitty-gritty of the medical prescription side. Thanks Boonen for replying to my previous post. I have a gut feeling there is something really bad for Freeman/Sky/BC hiding in the details but I've no idea what.
The loss of relevant records is certainly very convenient isn't it.
But of course they have all the records to prove that the testosterone patches were delivered in *cough* error. Couldn't make it up.


The precise limitations around the confirmation from the supplier about the error would be interesting -- was the error sending testosterone to Freeman at all, or specifically and precisely around sending testosterone to Freeman at his BC address where others might see it and/or the paperwork. (So, did Freeman or his agents order from the same supplier in other guises?)
heartsnotinit
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Re: Re:

06 Mar 2017 19:14

gillan1969 wrote:
Dan2016 wrote:


i think this has been covered...the jiffy bag is now irrelevant...as is even the kenalog

if not sanctionable and otherwise innocent...how did we end up here?

but here we are...

and if this is the mess they are in due to non-sanctionable stuff then...well...the fridge is full and the bottle opener on stand-by :)

Edit: for the avoidance of doubt, that's my fridge btw...who knows what you'll find in theirs :)


I'm struggling to keep up. Jiffy bag and kenalog are now irrelevant? So it's the record keeping etc., that's the only relevant bit, is that right?

Still doesn't completely negate my point, I think (I'm not sure). The things that started all of this could actually be innocent (devils advocate), but they've been shafted getting caught in covering up other stuff and general complete incompetence.

It's very entertaining though, I agree, whatever the truth is.
Dan2016
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Re: Re:

06 Mar 2017 19:16

heartsnotinit wrote:
Dan2016 wrote:I can't get my head around the nitty-gritty of the medical prescription side. Thanks Boonen for replying to my previous post. I have a gut feeling there is something really bad for Freeman/Sky/BC hiding in the details but I've no idea what.
The loss of relevant records is certainly very convenient isn't it.
But of course they have all the records to prove that the testosterone patches were delivered in *cough* error. Couldn't make it up.


The precise limitations around the confirmation from the supplier about the error would be interesting -- was the error sending testosterone to Freeman at all, or specifically and precisely around sending testosterone to Freeman at his BC address where others might see it and/or the paperwork. (So, did Freeman or his agents order from the same supplier in other guises?)


Haha! That would be funny. Supplier comes out and confirms the only error was sending it to the wrong address, but it was definitely ordered by Freeman.
Dan2016
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Re: Re:

06 Mar 2017 19:18

Electress wrote:
Dan2016 wrote:


...William of Ockham says 'hi'.


Hi William. :D
Dan2016
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Re: Re:

06 Mar 2017 19:52

Electress wrote:
Dan2016 wrote:


An honorable exercise in self-examination. However, William of Ockham says 'hi'.


My previous reply was a bit flippant. I tend to agree, invoking old William is appropriate.
Dan2016
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Re: Re:

06 Mar 2017 19:58

Dan2016 wrote:
Electress wrote:
Dan2016 wrote:


An honorable exercise in self-examination. However, William of Ockham says 'hi'.


My previous reply was a bit flippant. I tend to agree, invoking old William is appropriate.


No, I understood, it was entirely on point. :D
Electress
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06 Mar 2017 19:59

Cheers. :D
Dan2016
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Re: Re:

07 Mar 2017 06:43

samhocking wrote:
As I said, I don't know the numbers seeking medical help for cycling-related injuries or otherwise with BC, but that's not what i'm claiming. I'm claiming there's 1500 Foundation level riders under the UKSport funding and BC Coaching umbrella within BCs Olympic Rider Route and you can get medical help from BC at this level. Obviously we're not talking club and go-ride etc. They're not subsidiaries or clubs/schools. They're riders nominated by clubs to be coached under Great Britain Cycling Team Regional School of Racing and coached as groups by GBCT Foundation-level Coaches. Basically it's the starting point of the Olympic program and where funding begins.


Sam I realize that admitting you are wrong is something that you would never ever do, but scrolling up shows that you have serious memory and reading issues.

Sure, in reality there's only a couple of thousand top level athletes across CX, MTB, Road, Track & BMX using or accessing BC's Doctors, but 70 viles of Kenalog that last 3 years on the shelf seems relatively low for so many riders if that's what the order was for?


The top level has been debunked. Which is obvious to anyone who actually knows the sport. There's no country with thousands of top level cyclists, especially not a country without a cycling culture as the UK.

Also, you explicitly claimed this mass of top level athletes was indeed accessing or using these doctors.

Sam, read your own posts and come back to us. Perhaps you do not realize it, but you are disqualifying yourself as a person with a valid opinion by this nonsense and flat out refusal of retreating from factually demolished positions.
Franklin
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Re: Re:

07 Mar 2017 09:12

Dan2016 wrote:
gillan1969 wrote:
Dan2016 wrote:


i think this has been covered...the jiffy bag is now irrelevant...as is even the kenalog

if not sanctionable and otherwise innocent...how did we end up here?

but here we are...

and if this is the mess they are in due to non-sanctionable stuff then...well...the fridge is full and the bottle opener on stand-by :)

Edit: for the avoidance of doubt, that's my fridge btw...who knows what you'll find in theirs :)


I'm struggling to keep up. Jiffy bag and kenalog are now irrelevant? So it's the record keeping etc., that's the only relevant bit, is that right?

Still doesn't completely negate my point, I think (I'm not sure). The things that started all of this could actually be innocent (devils advocate), but they've been shafted getting caught in covering up other stuff and general complete incompetence.

It's very entertaining though, I agree, whatever the truth is.


in effect yes....

speeding at 33 in a 30 they could have pulled over, held their hands up and said...'its a fair cop guv'

"its a grey area and hey, some cops would have let us off but we'll take it on the chin."

but....they decided to speed off.....Sir Dave at the wheel

so, finding out what is hidden in the boot is now the real issue...the 33mph speeding offence is now, virtually, irrelevant...
gillan1969
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Re: CMS Doping in sport revelations/discussion

08 Mar 2017 09:06

I like how Freeman managed to upload the 2014 version of his CV in 2017 when his laptop was stolen in 2014 :surprised:

Image

Must have had a backup? :cool:
User avatar thehog
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Re: CMS Doping in sport revelations/discussion

08 Mar 2017 12:52

thehog wrote:I like how Freeman managed to upload the 2014 version of his CV in 2017 when his laptop was stolen in 2014 :surprised:

Image

Must have had a backup? :cool:


Date of theft? Summertime for the Greek holiday, presumably? Leaves rest of 2014 with a new computer.

Now, if it had the 2013 CV, we'd be cooking on gaz, coz it'd show he was totally capable of uploading to Dropbox. He just 'forgot'.
Electress
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Re: CMS Doping in sport revelations/discussion

08 Mar 2017 13:08

Electress wrote:
thehog wrote:I like how Freeman managed to upload the 2014 version of his CV in 2017 when his laptop was stolen in 2014 :surprised:

Image

Must have had a backup? :cool:


Date of theft? Summertime for the Greek holiday, presumably? Leaves rest of 2014 with a new computer.

Now, if it had the 2013 CV, we'd be cooking on gaz, coz it'd show he was totally capable of uploading to Dropbox. He just 'forgot'.


Date or the theft doesn't matter because when the laptop was stole all his files went with it. However in February 2017 he uploaded then 2014 version of his CV. Now where did that file come from? :cool:
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Re: CMS Doping in sport revelations/discussion

08 Mar 2017 13:12

thehog wrote:
Electress wrote:
thehog wrote:I like how Freeman managed to upload the 2014 version of his CV in 2017 when his laptop was stolen in 2014 :surprised:

Image

Must have had a backup? :cool:


Date of theft? Summertime for the Greek holiday, presumably? Leaves rest of 2014 with a new computer.

Now, if it had the 2013 CV, we'd be cooking on gaz, coz it'd show he was totally capable of uploading to Dropbox. He just 'forgot'.


Date or the theft doesn't matter because when the laptop was stole all his files went with it. However in February 2017 he uploaded then 2014 version of his CV. Now where did that file come from? :cool:


But surely he could simply have drafted a new CV on his new (still 2014) computer after his one with all the medical files on was "nicked" Legitimately it's still his 2014 CV. He then uploads it now (for some reason??)
Am I being thick?
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Re: CMS Doping in sport revelations/discussion

08 Mar 2017 23:30

Good to see omertà is alive and well:

Independent review into British Cycling potentially undermined by code of silence adopted by riders

Independent review into British Cycling expected to be damning
A key conclusion is that a 'culture of fear' existed under Sir Dave Brailsford
The review is not expected to have included the testimony of big-name riders
Sir Bradley Wiggins, Laura Kenny and Mark Cavendish have opted for silence

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Re: CMS Doping in sport revelations/discussion

09 Mar 2017 12:56

thehog wrote:Good to see omertà is alive and well:

Independent review into British Cycling potentially undermined by code of silence adopted by riders

Independent review into British Cycling expected to be damning
A key conclusion is that a 'culture of fear' existed under Sir Dave Brailsford
The review is not expected to have included the testimony of big-name riders
Sir Bradley Wiggins, Laura Kenny and Mark Cavendish have opted for silence


http://r.search.yahoo.com/_ylt=A0LEVzwFUMFYaLIAplVXNyoA;_ylu=X3oDMTByOHZyb21tBGNvbG8DYmYxBHBvcwMxBHZ0aWQDBHNlYwNzcg--/RV=2/RE=1489092742/RO=10/RU=http%3a%2f%2fwww.espn.com%2folympics%2fcycling%2fnews%2fstory%3fid%3d2908804/RK=0/RS=03_T_sEuYZ4T6KP85JEgSz6syjg-

I'm not sure if the link works but it is an article about the UCI pledge form back in 2007 promising to refund a year's salary if they are caught doping. Cav was front and center signing on at a press conference. Ten years later and we have this.
Nick C.
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Re: CMS Doping in sport revelations/discussion

09 Mar 2017 13:10

Nick C. wrote:
thehog wrote:Good to see omertà is alive and well:

Independent review into British Cycling potentially undermined by code of silence adopted by riders

Independent review into British Cycling expected to be damning
A key conclusion is that a 'culture of fear' existed under Sir Dave Brailsford
The review is not expected to have included the testimony of big-name riders
Sir Bradley Wiggins, Laura Kenny and Mark Cavendish have opted for silence


http://r.search.yahoo.com/_ylt=A0LEVzwFUMFYaLIAplVXNyoA;_ylu=X3oDMTByOHZyb21tBGNvbG8DYmYxBHBvcwMxBHZ0aWQDBHNlYwNzcg--/RV=2/RE=1489092742/RO=10/RU=http%3a%2f%2fwww.espn.com%2folympics%2fcycling%2fnews%2fstory%3fid%3d2908804/RK=0/RS=03_T_sEuYZ4T6KP85JEgSz6syjg-

I'm not sure if the link works but it is an article about the UCI pledge form back in 2007 promising to refund a year's salary if they are caught doping. Cav was front and center signing on at a press conference. Ten years later and we have this.


Thanks for the link, it worked fine for me.
Interesting idea, I missed that one at the time. It seems like all of these measures are for appearances only, the system trying to exert some morality that doesn't exists, cannot exist. It's always the riders that take the fall, pariahs made. They are just existing in a fixed system. The whole model itself needs rethinking.
Dan2016
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Re: CMS Doping in sport revelations/discussion

09 Mar 2017 13:11

They are just existing in a fixed system. The whole model itself needs rethinking.


You could go so deep on this.
Actual crimes, like insurance fraud, property scams. Wiggins with his bent foundation. Establishment collusion, illegal betting. The obvious stuff like corruption with cycling, Gilbert and Cookson at UCI. Why the hell does barely anybody seem to care? We end up talking about a frigging jiffy bag of kenacort which in itself is the soft tip of doping iceberg.
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Re: CMS Doping in sport revelations/discussion

09 Mar 2017 13:24

sniper wrote:
They are just existing in a fixed system. The whole model itself needs rethinking.


You could go so deep on this.
Actual crimes, like insurance fraud, property scams. Wiggins with his bent foundation. Establishment collusion, illegal betting. The obvious stuff like corruption with cycling, Gilbert and Cookson at UCI. Why the hell does barely anybody seem to care? We end up talking about a frigging jiffy bag of kenacort which in itself is the soft tip of doping iceberg.


Agreed. The jiffy bag is the ritual sacrifice to pacify and placate the public. We go through these sham sacrifices repeatedly. The new season is ushered in, everything will be better. Appearances are all the matter. These are the mechanisms of bent systems in all societies. Endlessly distracting from the fact that it's the system itself that doesn't work.
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