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CMS Doping in sport revelations/discussion

The Clinic is the only place on Cyclingnews where you can discuss doping-related issues. Ask questions, discuss positives or improvements to procedures.

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Re: CMS Doping in sport revelations/discussion

09 Mar 2017 13:26

Electress wrote:How can a package that wasn't actually ordered but sent by mistake have a destination?


From someone who has actually unpacked pharmaceutical deliveries at retail pharmacy*, you get a big box with a checklist of contents.
Start pulling them out and checking them off the paper copy of contents.

It was rare to find and error, but it would happen.
Usually around the dosage level, but gosh darnit so many drugs have similar sounding and looking names.

So I can actually believe that this is plausible.
Wrong thing got packed into a larger box.

The fact that it was a known and well abused PED makes the story suspicious, but on its own its not evidence of anything.


*many moons ago admittedly, but essentially the same systems are in place today.
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Re: CMS Doping in sport revelations/discussion

09 Mar 2017 13:32

Dan2016 wrote:
sniper wrote:
They are just existing in a fixed system. The whole model itself needs rethinking.


You could go so deep on this.
Actual crimes, like insurance fraud, property scams. Wiggins with his bent foundation. Establishment collusion, illegal betting. The obvious stuff like corruption with cycling, Gilbert and Cookson at UCI. Why the hell does barely anybody seem to care? We end up talking about a frigging jiffy bag of kenacort which in itself is the soft tip of doping iceberg.


Agreed. The jiffy bag is the ritual sacrifice to pacify and placate the public. We go through these sham sacrifices repeatedly. The new season is ushered in, everything will be better. Appearances are all the matter. These are the mechanisms of bent systems in all societies. Endlessly distracting from the fact that it's the system itself that doesn't work.

Well said.
Its symptomatic of the wider world, with only a hardcore of wankers like us.
90% of the world dont give 3 shits about anything. And thats why its rife and rampant.
There are no systems in place to truly stop it because all the wrong people are in the right positions.
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Re: CMS Doping in sport revelations/discussion

09 Mar 2017 13:58

sniper wrote:
Dan2016 wrote:
sniper wrote:
They are just existing in a fixed system. The whole model itself needs rethinking.


You could go so deep on this.
Actual crimes, like insurance fraud, property scams. Wiggins with his bent foundation. Establishment collusion, illegal betting. The obvious stuff like corruption with cycling, Gilbert and Cookson at UCI. Why the hell does barely anybody seem to care? We end up talking about a frigging jiffy bag of kenacort which in itself is the soft tip of doping iceberg.


Agreed. The jiffy bag is the ritual sacrifice to pacify and placate the public. We go through these sham sacrifices repeatedly. The new season is ushered in, everything will be better. Appearances are all the matter. These are the mechanisms of bent systems in all societies. Endlessly distracting from the fact that it's the system itself that doesn't work.

Well said.
Its symptomatic of the wider world, with only a hardcore of wankers like us.
90% of the world dont give 3 shits about anything. And thats why its rife and rampant.
There are no systems in place to truly stop it because all the wrong people are in the right positions.


https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems-and-poets/poems/detail/43290
Yeats' Second Coming
the best lack all conviction
the worst have passionate intensity
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Re: CMS Doping in sport revelations/discussion

09 Mar 2017 14:02

Dan2016 wrote:
Agreed. The jiffy bag is the ritual sacrifice to pacify and placate the public. We go through these sham sacrifices repeatedly. The new season is ushered in, everything will be better. Appearances are all the matter. These are the mechanisms of bent systems in all societies. Endlessly distracting from the fact that it's the system itself that doesn't work.


for intelligence agencies and spooks, the call this a limited hangout. release some information, whilst hiding the most damaging information, and potentially misdirecting watchful eyes on this topic.
"Hitler … didn't even sink to using chemical weapons."
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09 Mar 2017 17:54

There is at least one poster who had some form of CONTACT with the Australian Track Cycling Program, who could probably give reasons why riders may not co-operate with the BC Inquiry - Some have a mistaken belief that individuals should self-incriminate - This is wishful thinking.
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Re:

09 Mar 2017 18:54

yaco wrote:There is at least one poster who had some form of CONTACT with the Australian Track Cycling Program, who could probably give reasons why riders may not co-operate with the BC Inquiry - Some have a mistaken belief that individuals should self-incriminate - This is wishful thinking.


it is a fallacy.

like the no needles rule.

they already took hypodermics to inject the PEDs, which was explicitly outlawed. <eyesroll>

so outlawing the hypodermics is like a tautology regulation, a pleonasm dress up in a rule. #helmutroole ftw.

no needles is a much lower bar to circumvent when they were circumventing the higher bar of PEDS innit

also, the poster @King_Boonen, the PEDs that come in patches, trans dermis creams, steroids/androgens/peptides & other, much lower psychological bar for an athlete to transgress

#fallacies and #priapses
#phoneticTypos&malaprops
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Re: CMS Doping in sport revelations/discussion

09 Mar 2017 22:42

Draft report is out;


THE REPORT'S KEY FINDINGS

The British Cycling board ‘sanitised’ the investigation into Jess Varnish’s allegations against former technical director Shane Sutton, ‘reversing’ the initial findings to suit their own agenda. Varnish lost her funding ‘as an act of retaliation’ for criticising coaching staff and was ‘simply removed’ from the programme instead of being warned about her performance.
Former performance director Sir Dave Brailsford was ‘untouchable’, taking decisions about the multi-million-pound budget himself. Staff were regularly dispatched with confidential settlement agreements if relationships broke down and there was a perception of ‘jobs for the boys’.
Some elite cyclists have ‘experienced trauma’ at British Cycling and described a programme ‘characterised by fear and bullying from leadership figures’.
There is a ‘culture of fear’ among staff, some of whom are treated like children. Some staff are ‘frightened to speak out and are being bullied’.
Para-cyclists were sometimes called ‘wobblies’ or ‘gimps’ and the athletes took possession of these terms, setting up a WhatsApp group called ‘Wobblies&Gimps’.
Leadership at board level is inadequate and there is a ‘cloak-and-dagger’ atmosphere. A ‘systematic overhaul’ of leadership has been recommended.
The successful pursuit of medals has had a ‘blinding effect’, meaning serious issues have been ignored for a long time. UK Sport, which will give British Cycling £34million in the current Olympic cycle, did not monitor the sport in ‘any meaningful way’.
Former technical director Shane Sutton was never suitable for a management role and used crude language as he operated in an ‘old school’ way.
Boundaries between British Cycling and Team Sky were ‘blurred’.


http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/othersports/article-4298982/British-Cycling-s-wheels-blown-explosive-report.html
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Re: CMS Doping in sport revelations/discussion

09 Mar 2017 22:44

‘The apparently deliberate reversal of the grievance officer’s draft outcome by the British Cycling Board gives every impression of it trying to achieve that aim,’ says the report.

‘The actions of the British Cycling Board in that regard are shocking and inexcusable. They also call into serious question whether the composition of the British Cycling Board is fit to govern a national sporting body.’

The panel is also critical of the way the investigation was conducted, saying the ‘approach was inappropriate and indicative of vested interests within the British Cycling Board who wished to control the grievance outcome.

‘The Panel is also aware that, rather than authorising its appointed grievance officer to come to conclusions following their investigations into the former technical director (Sutton), the conclusions were to be decided upon by the British Cycling Board collectively,’ says the draft copy of the review.

The review is also critical of the way Varnish was axed, even if it recognises that the process applied to the selection of riders is generally ‘robust and good’.


:surprised:
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Re: CMS Doping in sport revelations/discussion

10 Mar 2017 01:03

Catwhoorg wrote:
Electress wrote:How can a package that wasn't actually ordered but sent by mistake have a destination?


From someone who has actually unpacked pharmaceutical deliveries at retail pharmacy*, you get a big box with a checklist of contents.
Start pulling them out and checking them off the paper copy of contents.

It was rare to find and error, but it would happen.
Usually around the dosage level, but gosh darnit so many drugs have similar sounding and looking names.

So I can actually believe that this is plausible.
Wrong thing got packed into a larger box.

The fact that it was a known and well abused PED makes the story suspicious, but on its own its not evidence of anything.


*many moons ago admittedly, but essentially the same systems are in place today.


I think you have missed my point. What actually happened re. the delivery was not it. It was the way it was explained by Freeman. Firstly saying it was delivered in error. Secondly that it "was not destined for any riders."

To me, that is a rather strange construction. A package delivered in error has no 'destination'. It wasn't 'destined' for anyone because no one ordered it. It merely arrived. However, Freeman's second statement implies that the package had been ordered, and he was claiming it just hadn't been ordered for any cyclists.

I'm not claiming this to be anything more than an ambiguity in language, and maybe means nothing at all. But, having done audits, this of phrasing would trigger my suspicions, because people being investigated will usually try to construct their answers to ensure they minimise / ameliorate the lies and hence ways of being caught out. A hypothesis in this case may be that Freeman said the latter to UKAD (the former was said internally) so as to cover the potential eventuality of a paper trail being found which indicated an order was made.

But, as I say, it's an ambiguity. It could simply mean nothing at all.
Electress
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Re: CMS Doping in sport revelations/discussion

10 Mar 2017 01:13

Electress wrote:
Catwhoorg wrote:
Electress wrote:How can a package that wasn't actually ordered but sent by mistake have a destination?


From someone who has actually unpacked pharmaceutical deliveries at retail pharmacy*, you get a big box with a checklist of contents.
Start pulling them out and checking them off the paper copy of contents.

It was rare to find and error, but it would happen.
Usually around the dosage level, but gosh darnit so many drugs have similar sounding and looking names.

So I can actually believe that this is plausible.
Wrong thing got packed into a larger box.

The fact that it was a known and well abused PED makes the story suspicious, but on its own its not evidence of anything.


*many moons ago admittedly, but essentially the same systems are in place today.


I think you have missed my point. What actually happened re. the delivery was not it. It was the way it was explained by Freeman. Firstly saying it was delivered in error. Secondly that it "was not destined for any riders."

To me, that is a rather strange construction. A package delivered in error has no 'destination'. It wasn't 'destined' for anyone because no one ordered it. It merely arrived. However, Freeman's second statement implies that the package had been ordered, and he was claiming it just hadn't been ordered for any cyclists.

I'm not claiming this to be anything more than an ambiguity in language, and maybe means nothing at all. But, having done audits, this of phrasing would trigger my suspicions, because people being investigated will usually try to construct their answers to ensure they minimise / ameliorate the lies and hence ways of being caught out. A hypothesis in this case may be that Freeman said the latter to UKAD (the former was said internally) so as to cover the potential eventuality of a paper trail being found which indicated an order was made.

But, as I say, it's an ambiguity. It could simply mean nothing at all.


lady macbeth lady doth protest too much,
or,
just clumsy.


ofcourse, I think it is clumsy. :D

but clumsy in a false dichotomy type of way.

its cycling, its doping. nothing unusual, no major value judgement. so what, they doped. its all a bit absurd.
"Hitler … didn't even sink to using chemical weapons."
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Re: CMS Doping in sport revelations/discussion

10 Mar 2017 01:14

thehog wrote:Draft report is out;


THE REPORT'S KEY FINDINGS

The British Cycling board ‘sanitised’ the investigation into Jess Varnish’s allegations against former technical director Shane Sutton, ‘reversing’ the initial findings to suit their own agenda. Varnish lost her funding ‘as an act of retaliation’ for criticising coaching staff and was ‘simply removed’ from the programme instead of being warned about her performance.
Former performance director Sir Dave Brailsford was ‘untouchable’, taking decisions about the multi-million-pound budget himself. Staff were regularly dispatched with confidential settlement agreements if relationships broke down and there was a perception of ‘jobs for the boys’.
Some elite cyclists have ‘experienced trauma’ at British Cycling and described a programme ‘characterised by fear and bullying from leadership figures’.
There is a ‘culture of fear’ among staff, some of whom are treated like children. Some staff are ‘frightened to speak out and are being bullied’.
Para-cyclists were sometimes called ‘wobblies’ or ‘gimps’ and the athletes took possession of these terms, setting up a WhatsApp group called ‘Wobblies&Gimps’.
Leadership at board level is inadequate and there is a ‘cloak-and-dagger’ atmosphere. A ‘systematic overhaul’ of leadership has been recommended.
The successful pursuit of medals has had a ‘blinding effect’, meaning serious issues have been ignored for a long time. UK Sport, which will give British Cycling £34million in the current Olympic cycle, did not monitor the sport in ‘any meaningful way’.
Former technical director Shane Sutton was never suitable for a management role and used crude language as he operated in an ‘old school’ way.
Boundaries between British Cycling and Team Sky were ‘blurred’.


http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/othersports/article-4298982/British-Cycling-s-wheels-blown-explosive-report.html


Christ. Bullying, autocratic and dictatorial, glossing over serious issues, 'jobs for the boys', corrupt Board, using their position to twist and misrepresent allegations etc, and - probably worst of all - exploiting their position and being vindictive against individuals who complained.

Only the fact that DB is now at Sky means he could 'survive' this. Rotten to the core.
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Re: CMS Doping in sport revelations/discussion

10 Mar 2017 01:23

Electress wrote:
thehog wrote:Draft report is out;


THE REPORT'S KEY FINDINGS

The British Cycling board ‘sanitised’ the investigation into Jess Varnish’s allegations against former technical director Shane Sutton, ‘reversing’ the initial findings to suit their own agenda. Varnish lost her funding ‘as an act of retaliation’ for criticising coaching staff and was ‘simply removed’ from the programme instead of being warned about her performance.
Former performance director Sir Dave Brailsford was ‘untouchable’, taking decisions about the multi-million-pound budget himself. Staff were regularly dispatched with confidential settlement agreements if relationships broke down and there was a perception of ‘jobs for the boys’.
Some elite cyclists have ‘experienced trauma’ at British Cycling and described a programme ‘characterised by fear and bullying from leadership figures’.
There is a ‘culture of fear’ among staff, some of whom are treated like children. Some staff are ‘frightened to speak out and are being bullied’.
Para-cyclists were sometimes called ‘wobblies’ or ‘gimps’ and the athletes took possession of these terms, setting up a WhatsApp group called ‘Wobblies&Gimps’.
Leadership at board level is inadequate and there is a ‘cloak-and-dagger’ atmosphere. A ‘systematic overhaul’ of leadership has been recommended.
The successful pursuit of medals has had a ‘blinding effect’, meaning serious issues have been ignored for a long time. UK Sport, which will give British Cycling £34million in the current Olympic cycle, did not monitor the sport in ‘any meaningful way’.
Former technical director Shane Sutton was never suitable for a management role and used crude language as he operated in an ‘old school’ way.
Boundaries between British Cycling and Team Sky were ‘blurred’.


http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/othersports/article-4298982/British-Cycling-s-wheels-blown-explosive-report.html


Christ. Bullying, autocratic and dictatorial, glossing over serious issues, 'jobs for the boys', corrupt Board, using their position to twist and misrepresent allegations etc, and - probably worst of all - exploiting their position and being vindictive against individuals who complained.

Only the fact that DB is now at Sky means he could 'survive' this. Rotten to the core.


British Cycling, innovative take on the babushka doll just a few bad apples trope.

if all exist within Cookson fish rots from the head torturing metaphors babushka doll of british cycling, and brailsford is merely one of the babushka dolls within the babushka doll, if that is how you spell babushka doll

#babushka_doll
#itsallrussiandopinginnit
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User avatar blackcat
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Re: CMS Doping in sport revelations/discussion

10 Mar 2017 06:03

Think you mean, Matryoshka doll. Babushka is a grandmother or elderly woman.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matryoshka_doll
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Re: CMS Doping in sport revelations/discussion

10 Mar 2017 06:20

thehog wrote:Draft report is out;


THE REPORT'S KEY FINDINGS

The British Cycling board ‘sanitised’ the investigation into Jess Varnish’s allegations against former technical director Shane Sutton, ‘reversing’ the initial findings to suit their own agenda. Varnish lost her funding ‘as an act of retaliation’ for criticising coaching staff and was ‘simply removed’ from the programme instead of being warned about her performance.
Former performance director Sir Dave Brailsford was ‘untouchable’, taking decisions about the multi-million-pound budget himself. Staff were regularly dispatched with confidential settlement agreements if relationships broke down and there was a perception of ‘jobs for the boys’.
Some elite cyclists have ‘experienced trauma’ at British Cycling and described a programme ‘characterised by fear and bullying from leadership figures’.
There is a ‘culture of fear’ among staff, some of whom are treated like children. Some staff are ‘frightened to speak out and are being bullied’.
Para-cyclists were sometimes called ‘wobblies’ or ‘gimps’ and the athletes took possession of these terms, setting up a WhatsApp group called ‘Wobblies&Gimps’.
Leadership at board level is inadequate and there is a ‘cloak-and-dagger’ atmosphere. A ‘systematic overhaul’ of leadership has been recommended.
The successful pursuit of medals has had a ‘blinding effect’, meaning serious issues have been ignored for a long time. UK Sport, which will give British Cycling £34million in the current Olympic cycle, did not monitor the sport in ‘any meaningful way’.
Former technical director Shane Sutton was never suitable for a management role and used crude language as he operated in an ‘old school’ way.
Boundaries between British Cycling and Team Sky were ‘blurred’.


http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/othersports/article-4298982/British-Cycling-s-wheels-blown-explosive-report.html

Is this Sir DB's "get out of jail" card? Step down because of past behaviour without a word about doping?
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Re: CMS Doping in sport revelations/discussion

10 Mar 2017 06:55

Robert5091 wrote:
thehog wrote:Draft report is out;


THE REPORT'S KEY FINDINGS

The British Cycling board ‘sanitised’ the investigation into Jess Varnish’s allegations against former technical director Shane Sutton, ‘reversing’ the initial findings to suit their own agenda. Varnish lost her funding ‘as an act of retaliation’ for criticising coaching staff and was ‘simply removed’ from the programme instead of being warned about her performance.
Former performance director Sir Dave Brailsford was ‘untouchable’, taking decisions about the multi-million-pound budget himself. Staff were regularly dispatched with confidential settlement agreements if relationships broke down and there was a perception of ‘jobs for the boys’.
Some elite cyclists have ‘experienced trauma’ at British Cycling and described a programme ‘characterised by fear and bullying from leadership figures’.
There is a ‘culture of fear’ among staff, some of whom are treated like children. Some staff are ‘frightened to speak out and are being bullied’.
Para-cyclists were sometimes called ‘wobblies’ or ‘gimps’ and the athletes took possession of these terms, setting up a WhatsApp group called ‘Wobblies&Gimps’.
Leadership at board level is inadequate and there is a ‘cloak-and-dagger’ atmosphere. A ‘systematic overhaul’ of leadership has been recommended.
The successful pursuit of medals has had a ‘blinding effect’, meaning serious issues have been ignored for a long time. UK Sport, which will give British Cycling £34million in the current Olympic cycle, did not monitor the sport in ‘any meaningful way’.
Former technical director Shane Sutton was never suitable for a management role and used crude language as he operated in an ‘old school’ way.
Boundaries between British Cycling and Team Sky were ‘blurred’.


http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/othersports/article-4298982/British-Cycling-s-wheels-blown-explosive-report.html

Is this Sir DB's "get out of jail" card? Step down because of past behaviour without a word about doping?


grey mail or poison pill
not same thing

he knows where the buried bodies got buried
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Re: CMS Doping in sport revelations/discussion

27 Mar 2017 23:13

So Sky had no policy on medical records and everyone knew Wiggins was getting the injection.

The doctor at the centre of the Sir Bradley Wiggins jiffy bag controversy has made the astonishing admission that there was not a 'written medicines management policy or stock-taking system' at either Team Sky or British Cycling in 2011.

Richard Freeman, who is still British Cycling's doctor, also contradicts earlier claims by insisting that the use of the powerful corticosteroid that was given to Wiggins before he won the 2012 Tour de France was with the knowledge of Team Sky management and coaches.

Freeman has revealed this in written evidence to the Culture, Media and Sport select committee in a bid to explain why he has been unable to produce proof of what was in the medical package delivered to the 2011 Criterium du Dauphine for Wiggins.


http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/sportsnews/article-4354890/Jiffy-bag-doctor-admits-Sky-didn-t-records-2011.html
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Re: CMS Doping in sport revelations/discussion

28 Mar 2017 00:45

thehog wrote:So Sky had no policy on medical records and everyone knew Wiggins was getting the injection.

The doctor at the centre of the Sir Bradley Wiggins jiffy bag controversy has made the astonishing admission that there was not a 'written medicines management policy or stock-taking system' at either Team Sky or British Cycling in 2011.

Richard Freeman, who is still British Cycling's doctor, also contradicts earlier claims by insisting that the use of the powerful corticosteroid that was given to Wiggins before he won the 2012 Tour de France was with the knowledge of Team Sky management and coaches.

Freeman has revealed this in written evidence to the Culture, Media and Sport select committee in a bid to explain why he has been unable to produce proof of what was in the medical package delivered to the 2011 Criterium du Dauphine for Wiggins.


http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/sportsnews/article-4354890/Jiffy-bag-doctor-admits-Sky-didn-t-records-2011.html


Does anybody have a chart keeping track of who has blown a hole through whom in the Sky/BC debacle? Sutton basically called a liar by Freeman (a complete surprise to nobody), and Peters called out for running a medical shop with poorer record keeping than a church bake sale. I was hoping 'The Godfather' and 'All The President's Men' would have me in good stead to keep track of all the backstabbing and double bluffs, but this is exhausting.

All we need now is for Brailsford to come out and give a Nixonian "I am not a crook" statement. But Dave being Dave, that would come out as "I can see why you might say that, but we have a lot of great people, and I know for a fact that we have always tried to go about things the right way, and while mistakes were made, that 'not being a crook' thing is definitely something we're taking a really close look at, and is the kind of thing that I could definitely see us making team policy in the future, provided of course it doesn't jeopardise our medical confidentiality obligations to our riders, which I am sure you will agree they fully deserve."
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28 Mar 2017 03:07

'not a written medicines management policy or stock-taking system' at either Team Sky or British Cycling in 2011.'

And therein lies the attempted escape clause for the good doctor. He was, as good doctors do, following written policy, of which there apparently was none. At least in 2011. What about 2012 or onwards? How about verbal policy, or board policy?

Freeman is trying to save his medical butt by #busthrowundery Gollum, Peters and Sutton.

First serve in, awaiting the replie.
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Re: CMS Doping in sport revelations/discussion

28 Mar 2017 05:47

http://www.bbc.com/sport/cycling/39411057
Ex-Team Sky doctor's evidence leaves 'major questions', says MP Damian Collins -
The Doc's taking the fall - nothing to see here, move on ... Geezus

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2017/mar/27/team-sky-bradley-wiggins-doctor-british-cycling-mystery-package
Freeman also insisted he had once administered triamcinolone to a rider at Team Sky and British Cycling and was “aware of only a handful of riders in either team being referred to hospital for image-guided triamcinolone injection for clinical need, with none needing a TUE”.

He added: “My practice has never been compromised by coaches or management ever at Team Sky or British Cycling. I am not, and have not been, concerned that the TUE process is abused by athletes, in relation to my clinical experience and practice.”
How many lawyers have written "his answers"? :D
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28 Mar 2017 07:23

http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/cycling/team-sky-sir-bradley-wiggins-medical-records-lost-dropbox-a7652936.html
"“I found [Dropbox] difficult to use, having on-going concerns about its security and greater confidence in my own system of note keeping,” Freeman said in a submission which stated that he had been instrumental in setting up the use of the software to create a central store of medical records."
good grief ...
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