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CMS Doping in sport revelations/discussion

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Re: CMS Doping in sport revelations/discussion

20 Oct 2017 07:42

Robert5091 wrote:https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2017/oct/19/british-cycling-doctor-jiffy-bag-scandal-richard-freeman

Freeman has not spoken publicly since UK Anti-Doping (Ukad) launched an investigation more than a year ago into the contents of a Jiffy bag delivered to Wiggins at the 2011 Critérium du Dauphiné. In a written statement to a parliamentary hearing, Freeman insisted the package contained only the decongestant Fluimucil but Ukad has still not been able to verify that claim because of the lack of medical records.

It is understood he was due to speak to Ukad as part of its continuing investigation two weeks ago but was not well enough to do so. British Cycling, which parted company with Freeman on 2 October, insisted it would continue to co-operate with the Ukad investigation. Freeman’s resignation removes an uncomfortable link with it and the doping suspicions swirling round Team Sky. Harrington, who took over from Ian Drake as chief executive of British Cycling in May, said she would have preferred to bring the matter to a more solid conclusion.

“We were investigating him on employment matters and Ukad were investigating him on doping matters,” she said. “After some months we were ready to continue with disciplinary action. Dr Freeman really wasn’t well enough to commence that and so we’ve allowed him to resign.


http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/richard-freeman-resigns-from-british-cycling/

The Telegraph reported that Freeman is suffering from 'stress-related issues' and is not expected to return to his post with British Cycling regardless of the outcome of a current investigation by UK Anti-Doping.


Good to see UKAD are still investigating but seems to be for show at the moment. Freeman and Salzwedel out, the house cleaning goes on.


Guardian article says Freeman didn't get a payoff - find that hard to believe

How did Brailsford get Freeman to be the fall guy with the protracted sicky blag if he didn't incentivise him with £££s (and of course the inevitable NDA)
Wiggo's Package
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Re: CMS Doping in sport revelations/discussion

20 Oct 2017 08:00

Wiggo's Package wrote:
Robert5091 wrote:https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2017/oct/19/british-cycling-doctor-jiffy-bag-scandal-richard-freeman

Freeman has not spoken publicly since UK Anti-Doping (Ukad) launched an investigation more than a year ago into the contents of a Jiffy bag delivered to Wiggins at the 2011 Critérium du Dauphiné. In a written statement to a parliamentary hearing, Freeman insisted the package contained only the decongestant Fluimucil but Ukad has still not been able to verify that claim because of the lack of medical records.

It is understood he was due to speak to Ukad as part of its continuing investigation two weeks ago but was not well enough to do so. British Cycling, which parted company with Freeman on 2 October, insisted it would continue to co-operate with the Ukad investigation. Freeman’s resignation removes an uncomfortable link with it and the doping suspicions swirling round Team Sky. Harrington, who took over from Ian Drake as chief executive of British Cycling in May, said she would have preferred to bring the matter to a more solid conclusion.

“We were investigating him on employment matters and Ukad were investigating him on doping matters,” she said. “After some months we were ready to continue with disciplinary action. Dr Freeman really wasn’t well enough to commence that and so we’ve allowed him to resign.


http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/richard-freeman-resigns-from-british-cycling/

The Telegraph reported that Freeman is suffering from 'stress-related issues' and is not expected to return to his post with British Cycling regardless of the outcome of a current investigation by UK Anti-Doping.


Good to see UKAD are still investigating but seems to be for show at the moment. Freeman and Salzwedel out, the house cleaning goes on.


Guardian article says Freeman didn't get a payoff - find that hard to believe

How did Brailsford get Freeman to be the fall guy with the protracted sicky blag if he didn't incentivise him with £££s (and of course the inevitable NDA)


sky have such a large budget...... expenses to subcontractors' subcontractors' subcontractors....could easily get lost
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20 Oct 2017 08:44

Coincidentally the 'whistle-blower' letter went onto the CMS web page the day after Theresa May announced the snap general election on 18 April, and some 4 months after DB and SS have given evidence.

That letter just doesn't seem to read correctly - I think more than one person has written/edited it an attempt to make it look like one individual 'whistle-blower'.

1. The factual intelligent - medical knowledge and account of facts eloquently put
2. The bad spelling -porn instead of pawn - sloppy given number (1) author
3. The spin doctor - using buzzwords such as bullying, powerful clearly pushing the bullying agenda

I am no forensic writing professor but it reads like 2, maybe 3 people have had a hand in it.
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20 Oct 2017 09:24

It says here: http://www.bbc.com/sport/cycling/41691267
Freeman has left the governing body without a financial settlement and was not asked to sign a non-disclosure agreement.

yeah
so he is a Free Man
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Re:

20 Oct 2017 10:57

TourOfSardinia wrote:It says here: http://www.bbc.com/sport/cycling/41691267
Freeman has left the governing body without a financial settlement and was not asked to sign a non-disclosure agreement.

yeah
so he is a Free Man


So the BBC article says that Freeman didn't get a payoff from BC and BC didn't ask him to sign an NDA

No such confirmation in respect of Sky however and of course Freeman was employed by Sky at the time of the package incident

So can we infer that Freeman's payoff came from Sky and that he signed an NDA with Sky?

It would be a classic Brailsford move - use deflection tactics (no payoff from BC) to hide the awkward reality (payoff from Sky)
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Re:

20 Oct 2017 11:57

B_Ugli wrote:Coincidentally the 'whistle-blower' letter went onto the CMS web page the day after Theresa May announced the snap general election on 18 April, and some 4 months after DB and SS have given evidence.

That letter just doesn't seem to read correctly - I think more than one person has written/edited it an attempt to make it look like one individual 'whistle-blower'.

1. The factual intelligent - medical knowledge and account of facts eloquently put
2. The bad spelling -porn instead of pawn - sloppy given number (1) author
3. The spin doctor - using buzzwords such as bullying, powerful clearly pushing the bullying agenda

I am no forensic writing professor but it reads like 2, maybe 3 people have had a hand in it.
Re the part I bolded - did we read the same letter? What you see as eloquence many others see as fevered gibberish.
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Re: Re:

20 Oct 2017 23:58

Wiggo's Package wrote:
TourOfSardinia wrote:It says here: http://www.bbc.com/sport/cycling/41691267
Freeman has left the governing body without a financial settlement and was not asked to sign a non-disclosure agreement.

yeah
so he is a Free Man


So the BBC article says that Freeman didn't get a payoff from BC and BC didn't ask him to sign an NDA

No such confirmation in respect of Sky however and of course Freeman was employed by Sky at the time of the package incident

So can we infer that Freeman's payoff came from Sky and that he signed an NDA with Sky?

It would be a classic Brailsford move - use deflection tactics (no payoff from BC) to hide the awkward reality (payoff from Sky)


Also doctor/patient confidentiality was quoted at the hearings.
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Re: Re:

21 Oct 2017 06:34

Robert5091 wrote:
Wiggo's Package wrote:
TourOfSardinia wrote:It says here: http://www.bbc.com/sport/cycling/41691267
Freeman has left the governing body without a financial settlement and was not asked to sign a non-disclosure agreement.

yeah
so he is a Free Man


So the BBC article says that Freeman didn't get a payoff from BC and BC didn't ask him to sign an NDA

No such confirmation in respect of Sky however and of course Freeman was employed by Sky at the time of the package incident

So can we infer that Freeman's payoff came from Sky and that he signed an NDA with Sky?

It would be a classic Brailsford move - use deflection tactics (no payoff from BC) to hide the awkward reality (payoff from Sky)


Also doctor/patient confidentiality was quoted at the hearings.


Team Sky use doctor/patient confidentiality as a weapon of convenience

In the case of Freeman it was as you say the reason to stay silent

But in the Josh Edmondson case Sky's chief medic Steve Peters unilaterally waived doctor/patient confidentiality on the evening news because Sky needed to think up a reason why Edmondson's use of needles etc wasn't reported to the authorities
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21 Oct 2017 09:07

Josh purchased his own equipment. There was no doctor patient relationship. Josh was the doctor and the patient so no GMC rules broken by talking.

British Cycling invoice Sky for Freeman's services to Sky and Freeman will be self-employed invoicing British Cycling so Freeman is not PAYE employee as such. He will be employed like Cope was. i.e. self employed and keep his expenses separated between BC & Sky so BC accountant knows who pays what expense on the invoice he sends Tour Racing Ltd.
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Re:

21 Oct 2017 23:35

samhocking wrote:Josh purchased his own equipment. There was no doctor patient relationship. Josh was the doctor and the patient so no GMC rules broken by talking.

British Cycling invoice Sky for Freeman's services to Sky and Freeman will be self-employed invoicing British Cycling so Freeman is not PAYE employee as such. He will be employed like Cope was. i.e. self employed and keep his expenses separated between BC & Sky so BC accountant knows who pays what expense on the invoice he sends Tour Racing Ltd.


There was a doctor patient relationship. The reason that they determined not to report the incident was that he was deemed to be 'ill' - indeed, Dr Peter's quote was "I suppose if I'm looking at safety issues I did think there was a really big risk this lad would be pushed over the edge. I stand by my decision...He is making very poor decisions because he is not well, and therefore we need to treat him first of all and then get to the bottom of it. But actually to put him through some kind of investigation or disciplinary at that point could've been very serious and damaged this lad's health."

They claim they decided not to report for fear of his mental health. Then they discussed his mental health to defend their position. Now, presumably he'd already published his own story by then, but I would be curious to hear from a doctor whether or not this means you are permitted to discuss the patient, or whether you still need to clear it with the patient before doing so.

Re. Freeman's position - do you know that he contracted to Sky via BC using, presumably, back to back contracts or just presuming? If he were a freelancer, he'd be perfectly able to invoice directly - cheaper for Sky, less administrative complications re. expsenses etc., liabilities much much clearer in the event of failure to perform, lower risk falling foul of tax man.
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22 Oct 2017 08:22

http://inrng.com/2012/08/team-sky-budget-accounts/
... almost everyone working for the team does so as a “contractor”, selling their services to the team. This practice is common on many “anglo-saxon” teams as it puts the burden of paying payroll taxes on the rider or staff member, therefore allowing the team budget to stretch further.


This is still the norm at Sky I believe.
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Re:

22 Oct 2017 10:28

Robert5091 wrote:http://inrng.com/2012/08/team-sky-budget-accounts/
... almost everyone working for the team does so as a “contractor”, selling their services to the team. This practice is common on many “anglo-saxon” teams as it puts the burden of paying payroll taxes on the rider or staff member, therefore allowing the team budget to stretch further.


This is still the norm at Sky I believe.


Ta. But still not clear if contract out via BC or via Freeman as individual.
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Re:

22 Oct 2017 11:03

Robert5091 wrote:http://inrng.com/2012/08/team-sky-budget-accounts/
... almost everyone working for the team does so as a “contractor”, selling their services to the team. This practice is common on many “anglo-saxon” teams as it puts the burden of paying payroll taxes on the rider or staff member, therefore allowing the team budget to stretch further.


This is still the norm at Sky I believe.
It's the way many businesses run: most everyone's a self-employed contractor, only needed when needed. This works for the riders all the way down to the mechanics (and it's not just about tax dodging by the employer - the employee can also be tax dodging, or the employer can simply be saving having to have someone on the books for twelve months of the year when they're really only needed for three or four).
Last edited by fmk_RoI on 22 Oct 2017 11:09, edited 1 time in total.
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Re:

22 Oct 2017 11:05

samhocking wrote:Josh purchased his own equipment. There was no doctor patient relationship. Josh was the doctor and the patient so no GMC rules broken by talking.

British Cycling invoice Sky for Freeman's services to Sky and Freeman will be self-employed invoicing British Cycling so Freeman is not PAYE employee as such. He will be employed like Cope was. i.e. self employed and keep his expenses separated between BC & Sky so BC accountant knows who pays what expense on the invoice he sends Tour Racing Ltd.


Are you yourself a PAYE worker with sky/BC or do you invoice them directly for services rendered? Surely your consistent staunch defence of all things sky/BC cannot go unrewarded.
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Re:

22 Oct 2017 11:23

samhocking wrote:Josh purchased his own equipment. There was no doctor patient relationship. Josh was the doctor and the patient so no GMC rules broken by talking.

British Cycling invoice Sky for Freeman's services to Sky and Freeman will be self-employed invoicing British Cycling so Freeman is not PAYE employee as such. He will be employed like Cope was. i.e. self employed and keep his expenses separated between BC & Sky so BC accountant knows who pays what expense on the invoice he sends Tour Racing Ltd.

Sam you have a very fertile imagination.
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Re:

24 Oct 2017 07:55

samhocking wrote:Josh purchased his own equipment. There was no doctor patient relationship. Josh was the doctor and the patient so no GMC rules broken by talking.

British Cycling invoice Sky for Freeman's services to Sky and Freeman will be self-employed invoicing British Cycling so Freeman is not PAYE employee as such. He will be employed like Cope was. i.e. self employed and keep his expenses separated between BC & Sky so BC accountant knows who pays what expense on the invoice he sends Tour Racing Ltd.

I admire your tenacity, it's almost quixotic.
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24 Oct 2017 17:35

Well, it's only a week until the month end. When the much delayed DCMS report was supposed to be landing. Now it'll be landing "within the coming weeks." Damian Collins - the brightest light in the DCMS's star chamber - has spoken to CN and says the report will be "critical over areas of concern that we’ve identified between British Cycling and Team Sky".
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Re: Re:

24 Oct 2017 17:49

Electress wrote:
samhocking wrote:Josh purchased his own equipment. There was no doctor patient relationship. Josh was the doctor and the patient so no GMC rules broken by talking.

British Cycling invoice Sky for Freeman's services to Sky and Freeman will be self-employed invoicing British Cycling so Freeman is not PAYE employee as such. He will be employed like Cope was. i.e. self employed and keep his expenses separated between BC & Sky so BC accountant knows who pays what expense on the invoice he sends Tour Racing Ltd.


There was a doctor patient relationship. The reason that they determined not to report the incident was that he was deemed to be 'ill' - indeed, Dr Peter's quote was "I suppose if I'm looking at safety issues I did think there was a really big risk this lad would be pushed over the edge. I stand by my decision...He is making very poor decisions because he is not well, and therefore we need to treat him first of all and then get to the bottom of it. But actually to put him through some kind of investigation or disciplinary at that point could've been very serious and damaged this lad's health."

They claim they decided not to report for fear of his mental health. Then they discussed his mental health to defend their position. Now, presumably he'd already published his own story by then, but I would be curious to hear from a doctor whether or not this means you are permitted to discuss the patient, or whether you still need to clear it with the patient before doing so.

Re. Freeman's position - do you know that he contracted to Sky via BC using, presumably, back to back contracts or just presuming? If he were a freelancer, he'd be perfectly able to invoice directly - cheaper for Sky, less administrative complications re. expsenses etc., liabilities much much clearer in the event of failure to perform, lower risk falling foul of tax man.


Well Sam, got any more obfuscation?
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Re:

24 Oct 2017 21:12

fmk_RoI wrote:Well, it's only a week until the month end. When the much delayed DCMS report was supposed to be landing. Now it'll be landing "within the coming weeks." Damian Collins - the brightest light in the DCMS's star chamber - has spoken to CN and says the report will be "critical over areas of concern that we’ve identified between British Cycling and Team Sky".


Just hope they're not giving those criticized a chance to complain before publication. I expect Sky's lawyers are already writing up SDB's response.
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Re: Re:

25 Oct 2017 09:39

Robert5091 wrote:
fmk_RoI wrote:Well, it's only a week until the month end. When the much delayed DCMS report was supposed to be landing. Now it'll be landing "within the coming weeks." Damian Collins - the brightest light in the DCMS's star chamber - has spoken to CN and says the report will be "critical over areas of concern that we’ve identified between British Cycling and Team Sky".


Just hope they're not giving those criticized a chance to complain before publication. I expect Sky's lawyers are already writing up SDB's response.


You don't believe people should have a right of reply? That seems like a strange position, why do you think that?
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