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CMS Doping in sport revelations/discussion

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14 Feb 2019 04:36

The question remains about 2012 Olympic samples - Yes it is overseen by the IOC but my guess is that the sporting federations must AGREE and fund the retesting - It's strange that a cyclist has not returned a positive from re-testing knowing the past issues with cycling.
yaco
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Re: CMS Doping in sport revelations/discussion

14 Feb 2019 09:45

I think the problem for UKAD is, they are dealing with many unknowns because there's no evidence of doping, only suggestions and allegations of it. e.g. They don't know for sure what was in Freemans/Wiggins June 2011 package to Dauphine and they don't know for sure what GMC might hand back to them after this Tribunal if the allegation the testosterone was for an athlete is upheld by MPTS.

UKAD, within the June 2011 Jiffybag delivery investigation, uncovered the testosterone order made by Freeman for Testosterone which is just a few weeks before a package was sent to Freeman, allegedly for Wiggins who had just won 2011 Dauphine and many would argue was on track to win 2011 Tour a few weeks later had he not broken his collar bone. Nothing suggests anyone knows what was in the jiffybag. Even the whistleblower said he never saw the jiffy bag contents, but Testosterone & Corticosteroids are obvious PEDS historically in cycling.

So, it's not a huge stretch of the imagination, if you were trying to join some dots Wiggins IC & OoC samples throughout May, June & July in Dauphine (along with arguably dozens of other BC & Sky riders) might need to be retested by UKAD for testosterone using the 'new' lab techniques now available today not used when last tested in 2011. I don't know who had control of anti-doping for UCI in 2011, but CADF formed in 2008, but didn't become independent of UCI until 2013. The IC & OoC controls on Wiggins at least would have been CADF I would think though, not UKAD as International Level athletes generally don't get tested by their own NADO anymore for obvious reasons.

There have also been a fair amount of accusations about Cookson. Given Verbruggen & McQuade covering up doping was not that long ago & Cookson was British Cycling president in 2011 it's not beyond a possibility.

Of ~500 re-analysis of London 2012 samples carried out by ITA so far, 48 athletes have an AAF, with the majority being for anabolic steroids. 'If' techniques were being used by British Cycling / Sky to dope with Testosterone in a similar way to those athletes now guilty, UKAD re-testing could identify that. However, UKAD won't just re-test samples unless GMC discover evidence doping might have taken place.

IOC are now in a race this year before 2020 to complete all the 2012 sample re-testing. I'm sure the success of this retesting is on UKAD's mind in relation to BC & Sky huge success in the 2011 to 2012 period. You certainly wouldn't NOT want the option to retest all BC & Sky riders samples because SoL expired given ITA's successes recently for finding anabolic steroids.
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14 Feb 2019 11:15

Sam - Think you inadvertently answered my question - You state the IOC has retested 500 samples from the 2012 Olympics - My estimation tells me there were about 10,000 athletes at the 2012 Olympic Games.
yaco
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14 Feb 2019 22:01

"Nothing suggests anyone knows what was in the jiffybag."

Well, Freeman obviously does and Burt who put the stuff in the jiffy bag, though strangely Burt claims not to know what it was he put in the jiffy bag (see http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/freeman-denies-crossing-the-line-in-treating-bradley-wiggins-and-team-sky-riders/ ).

Should there be a paper trail for what was sent, it would be "enlightning", but as everything seems to have been on Freeman's disappearing laptop, we'll never get to know.

Though interestingly, Freeman said, "We started recording them in 2012, and between 2012 and 2014 over 275 medications were sent overseas ..."
Why start in 2012 and for a team with marginal gains and all the other bs, why all the extra trips from the UK to the continent when there are chemists in Europe?

(edit - of course! 2012 - SDB's "dark night of the soul" and the new anti-doping policy.)
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Re:

15 Feb 2019 13:47

Robert5091 wrote:"Nothing suggests anyone knows what was in the jiffybag."

Well, Freeman obviously does and Burt who put the stuff in the jiffy bag, though strangely Burt claims not to know what it was he put in the jiffy bag (see http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/freeman-denies-crossing-the-line-in-treating-bradley-wiggins-and-team-sky-riders/ ).

Should there be a paper trail for what was sent, it would be "enlightning", but as everything seems to have been on Freeman's disappearing laptop, we'll never get to know.

Though interestingly, Freeman said, "We started recording them in 2012, and between 2012 and 2014 over 275 medications were sent overseas ..."
Why start in 2012 and for a team with marginal gains and all the other bs, why all the extra trips from the UK to the continent when there are chemists in Europe?

(edit - of course! 2012 - SDB's "dark night of the soul" and the new anti-doping policy.)


Alain Baxter.
MatParker117
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15 Feb 2019 14:05

I assume you're refering to -
https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2017/mar/27/team-sky-bradley-wiggins-doctor-british-cycling-mystery-package
Freeman also told the select committee that the experience of the Scottish skier Alain Baxter, who had lost out on an Olympic medal because he had taken Vick containing a banned substance, had made them wary of buying medicines over the counter. “It was very important to be sure that any medicines sent to the team on tour were appropriate and from a reliable source,” he wrote.

Which seems a lot of bs to my, admittedly, un-GP-trained thinking.
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Re:

15 Feb 2019 15:00

Robert5091 wrote:I assume you're refering to -
https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2017/mar/27/team-sky-bradley-wiggins-doctor-british-cycling-mystery-package
Freeman also told the select committee that the experience of the Scottish skier Alain Baxter, who had lost out on an Olympic medal because he had taken Vick containing a banned substance, had made them wary of buying medicines over the counter. “It was very important to be sure that any medicines sent to the team on tour were appropriate and from a reliable source,” he wrote.

Which seems a lot of bs to my, admittedly, un-GP-trained thinking.
Which part of it is BS? Given strict liability, people need to know what they are ordering. Medicines in one country are not always the exact same in another country. If you can afford to buy from a trusted supplier and ship it, you will do that, the same as some teams pay to have supplements tested for contamination.
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16 Feb 2019 00:48

I would have thought within the EU it would not be a problem. It's not like cyclists in France, Span, Italy etc are getting busted regularly for taking "dodgy medicines". It's also up to the doc to know what to order for his patient. Maybe Sky & BC had a deal with a certain supplier too?
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Re:

16 Feb 2019 10:27

Robert5091 wrote:I would have thought
Think what you will.
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Re:

19 Feb 2019 12:08

yaco wrote:Sam - Think you inadvertently answered my question - You state the IOC has retested 500 samples from the 2012 Olympics - My estimation tells me there were about 10,000 athletes at the 2012 Olympic Games.


Well not everyone gets tested, nowhere near. It will be similar to Cycling. The podium 3 and then a smal random/targeted selection, some via ABP indicators etc. There wont be 10000 samples. I would be suprised if much more than 1000 including tbe ABP ones.
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19 Feb 2019 13:23

From Matt Lawton today
https://twitter.com/Matt_Lawton_DM/status/1097841662473183232
Preliminary legal argument on Richard Freeman’s MPTS hearing now expected to run into next week. Was supposed to begin on Feb 6 and scheduled to finish on March 5. Farcical.


Edit- Once again, for those just joining the fun, the MPTS website with Freemans hearing details at https://www.mpts-uk.org/hearings-and-decisions/medical-practitioners-tribunals/dr-richard-freeman-feb-19
(edit - spelling!)
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20 Feb 2019 16:19

Not much for anyone to report, but some speculation on what is being discussed:
Former British Cycling and Team Sky doctor Richard Freeman's tribunal has been postponed again while the panel of judges continues to hear 'preliminary legal argument', the medical practitioners' tribunal service has confirmed.

The hearing was meant to start at the MPTS's Manchester base on February 6 but was immediately adjourned when Dr Freeman's legal team made a private application to the tribunal.

The nature of that application is unknown but it is thought to be related to Dr Freeman's mental health and the two parties have been arguing the matter for 10 days.
The MPTS are kicking the ball into next week:
'Please be advised that the preliminary legal argument being made in the hearing of Dr Freeman will continue throughout this week. This means that we do not expect a decision on the application until sometime next week.'
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21 Feb 2019 07:01

10 days of discussion about the docs health?
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Re:

21 Feb 2019 07:57

Robert5091 wrote:10 days of discussion about the docs health?


it is a medical tribunal.......geddit :lol:
gillan1969
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Re: CMS Doping in sport revelations/discussion

21 Feb 2019 12:01

Well the only good thing to come out of the delay, is I assume this isn't just about Freeman's mental health, unless it takes MPTS this long to decipher his psychologists handwriting signing him off!

What does that leave O'Rourke left with to open/continue preliminary legal arguments with under MPTS rules?
All I can see is an argument over medical privacy of witness(s) or an argument about MPTS/GMC's legal jurisdiction to decide Freeman's 'motive' was a doping one.
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25 Feb 2019 07:19

As the Tribunal is due to end March 5 (next Tuesday) that's only 7 working days (including today) away. If the plan was to stall, then, chapeau! The doc/Sky/BC have got their money's worth. Although with this still hanging in the air, will it cause problems for SDB and his sponsor hunt?
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25 Feb 2019 08:44

A couple of journalists have said they believe Brailsford already has a new sponsor lined up ready to buy Tour Racing Ltd and takeover sponsorship for a while and before Colombia and tribunal start date. They claimed the deal is already at a very advanced stage and announcement is due shortly. Maybe this week apparantly.
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27 Feb 2019 06:31

https://twitter.com/danroan/status/1100423065748553728
New twist in the farcical medical tribunal of ex Br Cycling / Team Sky doc Richard Freeman. After 3 weeks of preliminary legal argument, a new application has now been raised - so the previous application has been put on hold. A case scheduled to end next Tue still hasn’t started


see also https://www.eurosport.co.uk/cycling/preliminary-legal-arguments-mean-ex-team-sky-doctors-tribunal-delayed-again_sto7162660/story.shtml#uk-tw-sh
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27 Feb 2019 10:55

I wonder what the second application is covering? Assuming the first was legal argument over the Testogel motive & Ordering allegations, would seem the second legal argument is over the medical treatment of staff and Freeman's prescription management maybe?
samhocking
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04 Mar 2019 16:07

Does n't time fly when you're having fun ... Tomorrow is the last day of the MPTS Tribunal .. we await a new date for part 2.
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