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Cardiac Anomalies - is something going on or is this normal?

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Re: Cardiac Anomalies - is something going on or is this nor

17 Apr 2018 18:32

I don't see the heart anomalies as that abnormal. I know of 3 riders in my local area out of perhaps 200 who I would argue raced too hard, train too much and love cycling on the limit so much, it has left them with various heart issues requiring surgery.
Always important to remember, humans are designed to walk, climb, run, jump, crawl, lift, swim and have sex in short intervals of several minutes. Riding a bike for 5 hours every day for 3 weeks is as unnatural as sitting stationary in front of a TV eating chips for 5 hours a day for 3 weeks or running a marathon everyday for 3 weeks. All, we are not designed to do well.
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Re: Cardiac Anomalies - is something going on or is this nor

17 Apr 2018 20:00

samhocking wrote:I don't see the heart anomalies as that abnormal. I know of 3 riders in my local area out of perhaps 200 who I would argue raced too hard, train too much and love cycling on the limit so much, it has left them with various heart issues requiring surgery.
Always important to remember, humans are designed to walk, climb, run, jump, crawl, lift, swim and have sex in short intervals of several minutes. Riding a bike for 5 hours every day for 3 weeks is as unnatural as sitting stationary in front of a TV eating chips for 5 hours a day for 3 weeks or running a marathon everyday for 3 weeks. All, we are not designed to do well.


Dunno, there's a fairly significant body of thought that we are designed for long distance running, basically to hunt for food. We are endurance machines.

Obviously this is a bit different to riding a bike hard. My impression, after doing a lot of both, is that you can put yourself in a much greater level of "general" fatigue on a bike because when running the muscles in your legs tend to get too damaged to work properly before other constraints kick in. I ran just inside 2:30 for a marathon and was in a mess for weeks yet am capable of putting in similar length hard efforts on a bike day after day. Does it follow that this would put more pressure on the heart/lungs over a long period?
simoni
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Re: Cardiac Anomalies - is something going on or is this nor

17 Apr 2018 21:49

simoni wrote:Dunno, there's a fairly significant body of thought that we are designed for long distance running, basically to hunt for food. We are endurance machines.

Obviously this is a bit different to riding a bike hard. My impression, after doing a lot of both, is that you can put yourself in a much greater level of "general" fatigue on a bike because when running the muscles in your legs tend to get too damaged to work properly before other constraints kick in. I ran just inside 2:30 for a marathon and was in a mess for weeks yet am capable of putting in similar length hard efforts on a bike day after day. Does it follow that this would put more pressure on the heart/lungs over a long period?


The big problem with running is it's a weight-bearing sport. Your body weight is hitting the ground thousands of times and something starting at the feet going upwards is going to give out before you ever get close to the kind of time you can reach on a bike (no impact there).

The endurance demands are very similar and you can predict pretty well from biking to running performance and vice-versa.
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Re: Cardiac Anomalies - is something going on or is this nor

17 Apr 2018 22:24

simoni wrote:
samhocking wrote:I don't see the heart anomalies as that abnormal. I know of 3 riders in my local area out of perhaps 200 who I would argue raced too hard, train too much and love cycling on the limit so much, it has left them with various heart issues requiring surgery.
Always important to remember, humans are designed to walk, climb, run, jump, crawl, lift, swim and have sex in short intervals of several minutes. Riding a bike for 5 hours every day for 3 weeks is as unnatural as sitting stationary in front of a TV eating chips for 5 hours a day for 3 weeks or running a marathon everyday for 3 weeks. All, we are not designed to do well.


Dunno, there's a fairly significant body of thought that we are designed for long distance running, basically to hunt for food. We are endurance machines.

Obviously this is a bit different to riding a bike hard. My impression, after doing a lot of both, is that you can put yourself in a much greater level of "general" fatigue on a bike because when running the muscles in your legs tend to get too damaged to work properly before other constraints kick in. I ran just inside 2:30 for a marathon and was in a mess for weeks yet am capable of putting in similar length hard efforts on a bike day after day. Does it follow that this would put more pressure on the heart/lungs over a long period?
You're absolutely right - our bodies are designed for long-distance running & walking. In fact, we are the only mammals that have the physiology for efficient endurance capabilities over very long distances.

https://news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/2007/04/humans-hot-sweaty-natural-born-runners/

http://www.slate.com/articles/health_and_science/new_scientist/2013/06/daniel_lieberman_long_distance_running_we_evolved_endurance_and_dislike.html
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18 Apr 2018 05:50

25-year old ex-Continental rider Jeroen Goeleven found dead in his bed: https://www.directvelo.com/actualite/65520/jeroen-goeleven-est-mort
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Re: Cardiac Anomalies - is something going on or is this nor

18 Apr 2018 10:08

Nomad wrote:
simoni wrote:
samhocking wrote:I don't see the heart anomalies as that abnormal. I know of 3 riders in my local area out of perhaps 200 who I would argue raced too hard, train too much and love cycling on the limit so much, it has left them with various heart issues requiring surgery.
Always important to remember, humans are designed to walk, climb, run, jump, crawl, lift, swim and have sex in short intervals of several minutes. Riding a bike for 5 hours every day for 3 weeks is as unnatural as sitting stationary in front of a TV eating chips for 5 hours a day for 3 weeks or running a marathon everyday for 3 weeks. All, we are not designed to do well.


Dunno, there's a fairly significant body of thought that we are designed for long distance running, basically to hunt for food. We are endurance machines.

Obviously this is a bit different to riding a bike hard. My impression, after doing a lot of both, is that you can put yourself in a much greater level of "general" fatigue on a bike because when running the muscles in your legs tend to get too damaged to work properly before other constraints kick in. I ran just inside 2:30 for a marathon and was in a mess for weeks yet am capable of putting in similar length hard efforts on a bike day after day. Does it follow that this would put more pressure on the heart/lungs over a long period?
You're absolutely right - our bodies are designed for long-distance running & walking. In fact, we are the only mammals that have the physiology for efficient endurance capabilities over very long distances.

https://news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/2007/04/humans-hot-sweaty-natural-born-runners/

http://www.slate.com/articles/health_and_science/new_scientist/2013/06/daniel_lieberman_long_distance_running_we_evolved_endurance_and_dislike.html


We definitely are not designed for long distance running over multiple days. Clearly we are designed to run short distances like those articles state of 10-15km (1-2000 calories) on single day, because that's how much energy we can store without stopping and refuelling, but not 5 hours a day everyday for 3 weeks. If that was required to hunt food you would be burning 6-7000 calories a day chasing antelope and not even be able to eat 7000 calories from that antelope in time for the next days running. You would be burning 7000 calories a day to eat 7000 calories a day which is pointless when you only need 2000.
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18 Apr 2018 22:26

The poster formerly known as yespatterns.
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02 Aug 2018 12:43

For fans of join the dots: Dutch media investigation claims legal thyroid meds - which bring increased risk of heart problems + sudden death - being used in multiple sports and multiple countries to aid weight loss:
Top athletes would use the medication in particular because they think it causes weight loss. [...] The seriousness appears from a letter (.pdf) of 10 July of the Dutch skating union (KNSB) to the skaters. "The KNSB stands for a clean, fair and therefore doping-free sport," writes technical director Remy de Wit. "Recently we have received signals that athletes in the skating world are prescribed medication that, although not on WADA's doping list, but whose use without medical necessity poses health risks, we would like to warn you specifically." [...] A letter (.pdf) from the Doping Authority was also sent to WADA on 10 July, which was also signed by sports organization NOC*NSF and the Ministry of Health, Welfare and Sport. It is requested to place thyroid hormones on the banned list. "We have indications from medical professionals in the Netherlands that thyroid hormones are currently being abused by top athletes," he says.[...] "There is an increased risk of osteoporosis, heart problems and sudden death", says Visser when it comes to misuse (abuse) of thyroid hormones.
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02 Aug 2018 12:58

A recent article in Le Monde (€) claimed there is evidence thyroid meds are being used in cycling and the UCI is conscious of this. If anyone has accessed this and think it adds anything, please post a quote/summary. TIA.
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06 Oct 2018 11:27

A death (age: 23) and a retirement (age: 20)
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Re:

06 Oct 2018 12:23

fmk_RoI wrote:A recent article in Le Monde (€) claimed there is evidence thyroid meds are being used in cycling and the UCI is conscious of this. If anyone has accessed this and think it adds anything, please post a quote/summary. TIA.
The intro to the article is about the abnormal weight loss phenomenon in cycling, and uses Wiggins as an example of a "human guinea pig" for some kind of new methods, and says Froome "looks like a concentration camp victim". So then, there's a rundown of possible methods of extreme weight loss while maintaining or increasing power. With hormones thyroïdiennes being one of them.
- Le directeur médical de l’UCI, Xavier Bigard, s’inquiète des « moyens mis en œuvre pour arriver à ces états » (anorexiques), citant, comme les médecins d’équipe, la prise d’hormones thyroïdiennes (T3 et T4). Normalement prescrites à des patients souffrant d’insuffisances de la glande thyroïde, ces gélules en vente libre sur Internet facilitent l’élimination des graisses et sont utilisées dans plusieurs équipes, malgré les risques de dérèglements hormonaux.
"The medical director of the UCI is worried about these "techniques which have been put into use to arrive at these anorexic states", citing, as do team doctors, the thyroid hormones T3 and T4. Normally prescribed for patients suffering from thyroid insufficiency, capsules [of T3/T4] sold openly on the internet assist in fat reduction, and are used by several teams, despite the risks of hormonal disturbances."
Elles ne sont pas interdites par le code mondial antidopage, mais l’UCI réfléchit à un « contrôle et à la régulation de l’utilisation de ces extraits hormonaux », révèle le professeur. « Les extraits thyroïdiens sont hyperdangereux et inconcevables, tranche Jacky Maillot, médecin de l’équipe Groupama-FDJ. Ça devrait être interdit puisque c’est du dopage masqué. »
"These are not prohibited by the WADA code but the UCI is considering "testing and regulation of these hormonal extracts", the professor reveals. "Thyroid extracts are super-dangerous and inconceivable", opines Jack Maillot, team doctor for Groupama-FDJ. "They should be banned because they are a form of hidden doping"

What does this article add to the discussion, well the reasons cyclists might take thyroid hormones are: definitely for the metabolic effect of losing fat, and possibly for the endocrine effect of small increases in endogenous EPO. The endocrinology is complicated, but raising EPO is a possible ancillary motive. And furthermore, it's a matter of fact that this grey-area use of thyroid hormones has been used in elite running by athletes such as Mo Farah, and that thyroid medicines are part of Salazar's training regimen
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/05/19/sports/nike-oregon-project-alberto-salazar-dathan-ritzenhein.html

And what the Le Monde interview quotes add to that is: apparently it is also a matter of fact that "several" WT or pro conti cycling teams are using T3/T4.
Last edited by ClassicomanoLuigi on 06 Oct 2018 12:47, edited 1 time in total.
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Re:

06 Oct 2018 12:30

fmk_RoI wrote:A death (age: 23) and a retirement (age: 20)
I don't know what to say, other than sadness and "what-if" wondering, if they had not pursued pro cycling then maybe the one of them would still be alive today, and now the other may have caused himself future heart trouble

About the thyroid hormones I put that above, and yes, the number-one reason for cyclists not to tinker with this grey-area thyroid-function doping is, that it can cause atrial fibrillation. Dangerous for heart rhythm
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Re:

06 Oct 2018 13:04

fmk_RoI wrote:A recent article in Le Monde (€) claimed there is evidence thyroid meds are being used in cycling and the UCI is conscious of this. If anyone has accessed this and think it adds anything, please post a quote/summary. TIA.

I’m on thyroid treatment and I’m slow as ****....
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06 Oct 2018 22:10

I’m on thyroid treatment and I’m skiny and fast as ****.
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06 Oct 2018 22:21

What really scares me is how random it seems to be whether anything is detected or not.
Tanguy Turgis dodged the bullet, but then there's Jimmy Duquennoy; nothing detected in the pre-season tests, seemed fine, and then… just... gone!
Aka The Ginger One.
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07 Oct 2018 21:37

4 young Belgian riders to suddenly die of cardiac arrest in the last year.
Three of them at home. Vanacker and Goeleven while sleeping.

Bjarne Vanacker (20) - Nov 2017
Jeroen Goeleven (25) - Aprl 2018
Michael Goolaerts (23) - April 2018
Jimmy Duquennoy (23) - Oct 2018

Do you know of anyone from other nationalities that died in the same period? I don't.

It looks more than a coincidence to me.
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Re:

08 Oct 2018 05:03

Benotti69 wrote:I’m on thyroid treatment and I’m skiny and fast as ****.

That would mean you’ve got an over active thyroid, mix it with some salbutamol and you’ll be winning 3 grand tours in a row in no time
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Re:

08 Oct 2018 06:52

huge wrote:4 young Belgian riders to suddenly die of cardiac arrest in the last year.
Three of them at home. Vanacker and Goeleven while sleeping.

Bjarne Vanacker (20) - Nov 2017
Jeroen Goeleven (25) - Aprl 2018
Michael Goolaerts (23) - April 2018
Jimmy Duquennoy (23) - Oct 2018

Do you know of anyone from other nationalities that died in the same period? I don't.

It looks more than a coincidence to me.


Nietzsche. “That which does not kill us, makes us stronger.”
us = belgium national squad
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Re: Re:

09 Oct 2018 10:46

TourOfSardinia wrote:Nietzsche. “That which does not kill us, makes us stronger.”
us = belgium national squad
The crap you can find in fortune cookies and Christmas crackers these days...
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Re: Re:

09 Oct 2018 10:48

ClassicomanoLuigi wrote:
fmk_RoI wrote:A recent article in Le Monde (€) claimed there is evidence thyroid meds are being used in cycling and the UCI is conscious of this. If anyone has accessed this and think it adds anything, please post a quote/summary. TIA.
The intro to the article is about the abnormal weight loss phenomenon in cycling, and uses Wiggins as an example of a "human guinea pig" for some kind of new methods, and says Froome "looks like a concentration camp victim". So then, there's a rundown of possible methods of extreme weight loss while maintaining or increasing power. With hormones thyroïdiennes being one of them.
- Le directeur médical de l’UCI, Xavier Bigard, s’inquiète des « moyens mis en œuvre pour arriver à ces états » (anorexiques), citant, comme les médecins d’équipe, la prise d’hormones thyroïdiennes (T3 et T4). Normalement prescrites à des patients souffrant d’insuffisances de la glande thyroïde, ces gélules en vente libre sur Internet facilitent l’élimination des graisses et sont utilisées dans plusieurs équipes, malgré les risques de dérèglements hormonaux.
"The medical director of the UCI is worried about these "techniques which have been put into use to arrive at these anorexic states", citing, as do team doctors, the thyroid hormones T3 and T4. Normally prescribed for patients suffering from thyroid insufficiency, capsules [of T3/T4] sold openly on the internet assist in fat reduction, and are used by several teams, despite the risks of hormonal disturbances."
Elles ne sont pas interdites par le code mondial antidopage, mais l’UCI réfléchit à un « contrôle et à la régulation de l’utilisation de ces extraits hormonaux », révèle le professeur. « Les extraits thyroïdiens sont hyperdangereux et inconcevables, tranche Jacky Maillot, médecin de l’équipe Groupama-FDJ. Ça devrait être interdit puisque c’est du dopage masqué. »
"These are not prohibited by the WADA code but the UCI is considering "testing and regulation of these hormonal extracts", the professor reveals. "Thyroid extracts are super-dangerous and inconceivable", opines Jack Maillot, team doctor for Groupama-FDJ. "They should be banned because they are a form of hidden doping"

What does this article add to the discussion, well the reasons cyclists might take thyroid hormones are: definitely for the metabolic effect of losing fat, and possibly for the endocrine effect of small increases in endogenous EPO. The endocrinology is complicated, but raising EPO is a possible ancillary motive. And furthermore, it's a matter of fact that this grey-area use of thyroid hormones has been used in elite running by athletes such as Mo Farah, and that thyroid medicines are part of Salazar's training regimen
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/05/19/sports/nike-oregon-project-alberto-salazar-dathan-ritzenhein.html

And what the Le Monde interview quotes add to that is: apparently it is also a matter of fact that "several" WT or pro conti cycling teams are using T3/T4.
Thanks for doing the summary/translation job.
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