Log in:  

Register

Cardiac Anomalies - is something going on or is this normal?

The Clinic is the only place on Cyclingnews where you can discuss doping-related issues. Ask questions, discuss positives or improvements to procedures.

Moderators: Irondan, Eshnar, Red Rick, Tonton, King Boonen, Valv.Piti, Pricey_sky

08 Jan 2018 12:23

I would have thought the high you get from alcohol would at least partially be related to the lowering of adrenaline. At least in people who drink to alleviate stress. Alcohol makes me feel relaxed. Caffeine makes me feel agitated and anxious. Caffeine and alcohol effect me in completely opposite ways. Haven't there been studies suggesting that a moderated consumption of alcohol is good for the heart?
User avatar sars1981
Member
 
Posts: 345
Joined: 24 Jul 2009 18:11

08 Jan 2018 12:45

In the same vein, small doses of cafeine can be good for your heart as well.
Marxten
New Member
 
Posts: 14
Joined: 09 Aug 2017 15:47
Location: Netherlands

08 Jan 2018 13:19

Generally its accepted that anything that causes vaso dilation and/or lowering of the blood pressure is good for the heart...obviously you can go too far and cause episodes of fainting etc but pretty much all heart conditions are medicated with drugs to slow the rate, reduce the force of the pump and lower BP...stimulants do the opposite and in large doses or with chronic use will put too much pre load on the heart, raise BP, make someone a stroke risk and reduce elasticity of the blood vessels.
deviant
Junior Member
 
Posts: 137
Joined: 18 Dec 2013 19:31

08 Jan 2018 19:12

I'm not really interested in studies or doctors as they usually concentrate on specific separated parts and the body doesn't work like that. Holistic stuff has much more to it.
High blood pressure is caused by too much salt in the blood attached to a lot of water. Why is that salt cannot leave the blood and enter the cells? Now that can have a myriad of causes which I won't enumerate here.
Caffeine and alcohol are diuretics due to their toxic nature. However, if the person is dehydrated (has adrenal fatigue) then the kidneys cannot help so alcohol must be removed by the liver which slows down other metabolic functions as the toxin removal is first priority of the body at this point. So this results in a fake calming effect.
This is why younger people get the adrenaline boost because they're not as dehydrated as ones over thirty.
bebellion2
New Member
 
Posts: 29
Joined: 12 Aug 2015 21:24

Re:

08 Jan 2018 20:32

bebellion2 wrote:I'm not really interested in studies or doctors as they usually concentrate on specific separated parts and the body doesn't work like that.
And the ghost of Michael Gove sighed contentedly...
User avatar fmk_RoI
Senior Member
 
Posts: 2,110
Joined: 16 Sep 2010 07:31

Re: Re:

09 Jan 2018 09:43

fmk_RoI wrote:
bebellion2 wrote:I'm not really interested in studies or doctors as they usually concentrate on specific separated parts and the body doesn't work like that.
And the ghost of Michael Gove sighed contentedly...


Are you one of those people who prescribes meditation to cure AIDS?
User avatar sars1981
Member
 
Posts: 345
Joined: 24 Jul 2009 18:11

Re: Re:

09 Jan 2018 10:03

sars1981 wrote:
fmk_RoI wrote:
bebellion2 wrote:I'm not really interested in studies or doctors as they usually concentrate on specific separated parts and the body doesn't work like that.
And the ghost of Michael Gove sighed contentedly...


Are you one of those people who prescribes meditation to cure AIDS?
That's an acrobatic leap of logic worthy of sniper. Chapeau for saying something beyond stupid.
User avatar fmk_RoI
Senior Member
 
Posts: 2,110
Joined: 16 Sep 2010 07:31

Re: Re:

09 Jan 2018 10:04

fmk_RoI wrote:
bebellion2 wrote:I'm not really interested in studies or doctors as they usually concentrate on specific separated parts and the body doesn't work like that.
And the ghost of Michael Gove sighed contentedly...

That's a funny thing to call Jeremy Hunt...
Vincenzo Nibali:
"I know how to ride a bike"

Reduce your carbon footprint, ride steel.
User avatar King Boonen
Administrator
 
Posts: 6,705
Joined: 25 Jul 2012 14:38

Re: Re:

09 Jan 2018 10:29

fmk_RoI wrote:
sars1981 wrote:
fmk_RoI wrote:
bebellion2 wrote:I'm not really interested in studies or doctors as they usually concentrate on specific separated parts and the body doesn't work like that.
And the ghost of Michael Gove sighed contentedly...


Are you one of those people who prescribes meditation to cure AIDS?
That's an acrobatic leap of logic worthy of sniper. Chapeau for saying something beyond stupid.


I was referring to B. But Chapeau to me for not knowing what chapeau means.
User avatar sars1981
Member
 
Posts: 345
Joined: 24 Jul 2009 18:11

Re: Re:

11 Jan 2018 13:02

fmk_RoI wrote:
That's an acrobatic leap of logic worthy of sniper. Chapeau for saying something beyond stupid.


Hey, whatever happened to sniper???

John Swanson
ScienceIsCool
Member
 
Posts: 1,617
Joined: 05 Jul 2009 15:34

Re: Re:

11 Jan 2018 15:31

ScienceIsCool wrote:
fmk_RoI wrote:
That's an acrobatic leap of logic worthy of sniper. Chapeau for saying something beyond stupid.


Hey, whatever happened to sniper???

John Swanson
sniper's dead, dude, sniper's dead.

But his ghost still lingers, sometimes...
User avatar fmk_RoI
Senior Member
 
Posts: 2,110
Joined: 16 Sep 2010 07:31

Re: Re:

11 Jan 2018 16:01

fmk_RoI wrote:
ScienceIsCool wrote:
fmk_RoI wrote:
That's an acrobatic leap of logic worthy of sniper. Chapeau for saying something beyond stupid.


Hey, whatever happened to sniper???

John Swanson
sniper's dead, dude, sniper's dead.

But his ghost still lingers, sometimes...

I thought I recognized that smell...

John Swanson
ScienceIsCool
Member
 
Posts: 1,617
Joined: 05 Jul 2009 15:34

Re:

11 Jan 2018 16:01

bebellion2 wrote:Caffeine and alcohol are toxic to the body, that's why people get high from them as the adrenals are trying to remove the substance through the kidneys, which results in a temporary adrenaline boost. On the long term this leads to chronic dehydration and adrenal fatigue, which might or might not be apparent to the user as it's usually a very slow, gradual decline in the quality of life ever since the first childhood dose of a hot cocoa drink. Later in life this can lead to many side effects like panic attacks or arrhythmias, as when the sodium/potassium ratio in cells gets out of balance muscle activity is immediately affected.

"Athlete's heart" is another condition which relates to (as in 'chronic stress') but not entirely caused by this. A carbohydrate-based diet induces a general 'high' which gives immediate energy that the person wants to spend right away. When this is coupled with exercise that burns mostly carbs, the effect is multiplied and the heart muscles get weakened over the years due to this overusage. In general a low carb diet is preferable (not Atkins), exercise has to be long distance+low intensity (fat burning zone) with the occasional bursts of high intensitiy intervals. This type of diet high in saturated fats also protects one from high cholesterol.


You have absolutely no idea what you are talking about, everything in bold is nonsense.
Oude Geuze
Junior Member
 
Posts: 100
Joined: 03 Apr 2016 21:16

Re: Cardiac Anomalies - is something going on or is this nor

11 Jan 2018 16:14

Nomad wrote:I can't speak for elite endurance athletes as I wouldn't have any idea why so many, particularly young athletes, are having heart problems. Could be medical drug-induced as the drugs these days have so many side-effects and many of safety studies are industry-funded (as well as buried studies in lot of cases). And IMO, with the FDA a subsidiary of Big Pharma and a promoter of destructive drugs, anything is possible (I lost a family member a few years ago to drug-induced organ failure).

My take is intense endurance exercise is beneficial for the cardiovascular system and improves stroke volume & lowers RHR. And from a new study it's clear that high-intensity interval training (HIIT) at >90% VO2max has a much more positive influence on gene transcripts & improved cardio-metobolic rate than less intense, lower VO2max type excercise. And in this study a greater number of genes were influenced with the older middle-aged test group than the younger bucks - which is good for us old cats!

As an avid runner in my late 50s I've been doing HIIT for over 30 yrs. Though I do lower mileage now and cross train more on a bike due to age-related chronic injuries, about half of my training is HIIT related. I haven't had any cardiovascular problems and even had a treadmill test a few years ago. RHR is very low for my age.


https://mobile.nytimes.com/2017/03/23/well/move/the-best-exercise-for-aging-muscles.html?mc=aud_dev&mcid=keywee&mccr=domdesk&kwp_0=619189&kwp_4=2200908&kwp_1=919655&referer=http://www.letsrun.com/forum/flat_read.php?thread=8581110

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/28273480


No offence but that person was seriously or life threatening ill long before recieving any medications that might have killed him or her.

Also, the Big Pharma conspiracy stuff is bullshit, yeah they do sloppy research sometimes, they cherry pick with publication-bias, p-hacking etc to post hoc rationalize millions or billions of investment in failed products, but they are safe. Ever heard of the FDA? Each country in the world have a similr government organ that individually assess medications constantly.
Also, all commonly used medications are indipendently researched by universities, hospitals and NGO's and governments around the world and assessed for safety by vast epidemiological data. If you think an MD would ever knowingly give a patient dangerous drugs for financial gains or pressure from "big pharma", you are delusional, extremely cynical or just a conspiratory nut.

Lastly, HIT training and other high intensity training shoud be done less as you age as the severe stress may overload compromised organs and uncover vascular/cardiac disease. The general consensus is that you in fact gain very little in terms of healt and longevity by training hard or high volume. Brisk walking, some strenght training and good diet is probably optimal for health.
Oude Geuze
Junior Member
 
Posts: 100
Joined: 03 Apr 2016 21:16

Re:

11 Jan 2018 16:22

bebellion2 wrote:I'm not really interested in studies or doctors as they usually concentrate on specific separated parts and the body doesn't work like that. Holistic stuff has much more to it.
High blood pressure is caused by too much salt in the blood attached to a lot of water. Why is that salt cannot leave the blood and enter the cells? Now that can have a myriad of causes which I won't enumerate here.
Caffeine and alcohol are diuretics due to their toxic nature. However, if the person is dehydrated (has adrenal fatigue) then the kidneys cannot help so alcohol must be removed by the liver which slows down other metabolic functions as the toxin removal is first priority of the body at this point. So this results in a fake calming effect.
This is why younger people get the adrenaline boost because they're not as dehydrated as ones over thirty.


Magnets, how do they work?

Seriously, just stop, you are making people misinformed, more confused and detract from the overal value of this forum with your posts.
Oude Geuze
Junior Member
 
Posts: 100
Joined: 03 Apr 2016 21:16

Re: Cardiac Anomalies - is something going on or is this nor

12 Jan 2018 05:54

Oude Geuze wrote:
Nomad wrote:I can't speak for elite endurance athletes as I wouldn't have any idea why so many, particularly young athletes, are having heart problems. Could be medical drug-induced as the drugs these days have so many side-effects and many of safety studies are industry-funded (as well as buried studies in lot of cases). And IMO, with the FDA a subsidiary of Big Pharma and a promoter of destructive drugs, anything is possible (I lost a family member a few years ago to drug-induced organ failure).

My take is intense endurance exercise is beneficial for the cardiovascular system and improves stroke volume & lowers RHR. And from a new study it's clear that high-intensity interval training (HIIT) at >90% VO2max has a much more positive influence on gene transcripts & improved cardio-metobolic rate than less intense, lower VO2max type excercise. And in this study a greater number of genes were influenced with the older middle-aged test group than the younger bucks - which is good for us old cats!

As an avid runner in my late 50s I've been doing HIIT for over 30 yrs. Though I do lower mileage now and cross train more on a bike due to age-related chronic injuries, about half of my training is HIIT related. I haven't had any cardiovascular problems and even had a treadmill test a few years ago. RHR is very low for my age.


https://mobile.nytimes.com/2017/03/23/well/move/the-best-exercise-for-aging-muscles.html?mc=aud_dev&mcid=keywee&mccr=domdesk&kwp_0=619189&kwp_4=2200908&kwp_1=919655&referer=http://www.letsrun.com/forum/flat_read.php?thread=8581110

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/28273480


No offence but that person was seriously or life threatening ill long before recieving any medications that might have killed him or her.

Also, the Big Pharma conspiracy stuff is bullshit, yeah they do sloppy research sometimes, they cherry pick with publication-bias, p-hacking etc to post hoc rationalize millions or billions of investment in failed products, but they are safe. Ever heard of the FDA? Each country in the world have a similr government organ that individually assess medications constantly.
Also, all commonly used medications are indipendently researched by universities, hospitals and NGO's and governments around the world and assessed for safety by vast epidemiological data. If you think an MD would ever knowingly give a patient dangerous drugs for financial gains or pressure from "big pharma", you are delusional, extremely cynical or just a conspiratory nut.
No offense? Damn right I'm offended! You could have asked for some details instead of that pretentious wiseass one liner of yours! (are you a pharma shill or what?). FWIW, my wife of 20 yrs suffered from a vaccine-induced autoimmune disease which was verified by her treating rheumatologists (Hep-B vaccine). The disease-modifying anti-rheumatic drugs (DMARDs) & antibody therapy drugs that she was treated with put her into stage-5 renal failure (verified by the nephrologist). She also sustained ACE inhibitor-induced pancreatic necrosis (verified by her teating GI doctors and the primary cause of her death!). These were all the result of the normal administration of the drugs. And the potential damage caused by these drugs are documented in the journals.

Do you know what it's like to watch a loved one die of pancreatic & renal failure? She was a runner & cyclist and was very healthy prior to her illness. Now my children and I live in depression because of a preventable death!

And you bring up the FDA?...please. Big Pharma runs the FDA - they PAY the FDA a fee to approve their industry-funded safey studied drugs! Newsflash: the normal administration of prescription drugs are now the 4th leading cause of death in the U.S.! (128,000 deaths & 2.7 million serious ADR reactions annually):

http://ethics.harvard.edu/b...

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/to-your-health/wp/2017/05/09/new-safety-risks-detected-in-one-third-of-fda-approved-drugs/?sw_bypass=true&utm_term=.350772a5fbaf

What's hypocritical here is the FDA and it's medical system's allies will go after dietary supplements, demean “unproven remedies,” and generally take every possible opportunity to warn people about “alternatives,” on the basis that they aren’t scientifically supported. Meanwhile, the very drugs these "experts" are promoting, and certifying as safe and effective, are killing and injuring people at a staggering rate. It's non-stop PR & marketing on the glories of medical drugs (seen many of ad naseum drug commercials dominating the air waves - it's all about profit for pharma).

And how about corruption within the FDA:

http://www.truth-out.org/news/item/10524-former-fda-reviewer-speaks-out-about-intimidation-retaliation-and-marginalizing-of-safety

How about the disaster with Xarelto and alleged cover-up of safety issues:

http://www.chicagotribune.com/lifestyles/health/ct-xarelto-internal-bleeding-20170425-story.html

And MEDICAL ERROR is now the *3rd* leading cause of death in the U.S.! Unbelievable..so much iatrogenic damage and very little accountability!

https://hub.jhu.edu/2016/05/03/medical-errors-third-leading-cause-of-death/


http://www.bmj.com/content/353/bmj.i2139.full

Btw, this isn't your stupid "conspiracy theory" claims - these are mainstream sources. So don't throw that conspiracy crap at me!
Last edited by Nomad on 12 Jan 2018 06:46, edited 1 time in total.
Nomad
Member
 
Posts: 323
Joined: 20 Apr 2016 01:39

Re: Cardiac Anomalies - is something going on or is this nor

12 Jan 2018 06:17

Oude Geuze wrote:
Nomad wrote:I can't speak for elite endurance athletes as I wouldn't have any idea why so many, particularly young athletes, are having heart problems. Could be medical drug-induced as the drugs these days have so many side-effects and many of safety studies are industry-funded (as well as buried studies in lot of cases). And IMO, with the FDA a subsidiary of Big Pharma and a promoter of destructive drugs, anything is possible (I lost a family member a few years ago to drug-induced organ failure).

My take is intense endurance exercise is beneficial for the cardiovascular system and improves stroke volume & lowers RHR. And from a new study it's clear that high-intensity interval training (HIIT) at >90% VO2max has a much more positive influence on gene transcripts & improved cardio-metobolic rate than less intense, lower VO2max type excercise. And in this study a greater number of genes were influenced with the older middle-aged test group than the younger bucks - which is good for us old cats!

As an avid runner in my late 50s I've been doing HIIT for over 30 yrs. Though I do lower mileage now and cross train more on a bike due to age-related chronic injuries, about half of my training is HIIT related. I haven't had any cardiovascular problems and even had a treadmill test a few years ago. RHR is very low for my age.


https://mobile.nytimes.com/2017/03/23/well/move/the-best-exercise-for-aging-muscles.html?mc=aud_dev&mcid=keywee&mccr=domdesk&kwp_0=619189&kwp_4=2200908&kwp_1=919655&referer=http://www.letsrun.com/forum/flat_read.php?thread=8581110

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/28273480


Lastly, HIT training and other high intensity training shoud be done less as you age as the severe stress may overload compromised organs and uncover vascular/cardiac disease. The general consensus is that you in fact gain very little in terms of healt and longevity by training hard or high volume. Brisk walking, some strenght training and good diet is probably optimal for health.
0/10

"Should be done less as you age?" Lol. Did you even bother to read the study in "Cell Metabolism" that I linked? Do you even run or cycle at all? Are you anywhere near my age (57) and have been training for decades? I've been running/coaching for over 30 yrs with a lot of that being higher intensity training (>90% VO2max).

I had a treatmill test a few years back and went off the chart for my age on the METs score. The cardiologist even said high intensity training was okay to do at my age. His concern, as I recall, was the risk of CV damage from chronic longer-sustained intense efforts over greater distances, i.e., marathons, ultras, Ironmans and undiagnosed pre-existing conditions. In fact, he was a runner himself! I've got a RHR in the low 40s, which many other hard training runners & cyclists in my age group also have. It's not unusual when you have improved stroke volume from the higher intensity training and the heart doesn't have to work very hard at rest (geez...who would have thought. Lol).

In the Grandmasters running club I belong to we have many old cats training very hard in their 50s, 60s, 70s & even some into their 80s! Many are accomplished top age-group competitors. No evidence of any cardiovascular problems with these folks. Some orthopedic problems from degenerative changes in the joints from previous acute injuries/surgeries but no CV or other health related problems that has been revealed. And nutiriton and some strength training is extremely important for the aging body.

HIIT helps slow down the aging process:

https://lifehacker.com/high-intensity-interval-training-helps-slow-down-the-ag-1794194445
Last edited by Nomad on 12 Jan 2018 08:48, edited 1 time in total.
Nomad
Member
 
Posts: 323
Joined: 20 Apr 2016 01:39

Re: Cardiac Anomalies - is something going on or is this nor

12 Jan 2018 07:32

Nomad, as someone who has witnessed his own share of medically-preventable tragedies (my mother was one of them), I understand your anger. But speaking more generally, and not to focus on any individual case, part of the problem may be that people expect drugs to be 100% safe. They aren’t, and if they are “only” 99% safe, i.e., significant side effects in 1% of the users, this may not be identified on the basis of studies with relatively small subject pools, as one of the links you posted notes. Studies with larger pools take more time and resources, at the same time that there may be a pressing need to get a potentially life-saving drug on the market. While I certainly understand there is a lot of greed and corruption in big pharma, they do get it from both sides, lawsuits when someone dies from an effect that was not recognized when the drug was approved, and complaints when it takes years for a drug to reach the market. Sure, pharma wants a quick review so they can start making money, but the public clamors for these drugs, too. Remember all the anger against the FDA when it was felt they weren't accelerating the process of getting AIDS drugs on the market.

Xarelto, a drug I’ve taken off and on for several years with no problems, may be a good example. The link says there have been 18,000 lawsuits, and 370 deaths linked to the drug. Xarelto is used by millions people (as the link notes, it’s a billion dollar industry), so while 18,000 sounds like a lot of complaints, it probably represents less than 1% of the users. That’s unfortunate, but that number has to be put against the number of strokes that are prevented by its use. It would be nice if we could have a miracle cure for everything, but the reality is that there are benefit-risk ratios for everything. Or as we say in the Clinic, there's a balance between false positives and false negatives, between sensitivity and specificity.

There's a great deal more to medical error than drugs, of course. My brother is a former doctor, and for years tried to get his peers to keep and publish accurate records so that the exact sources of iatrogenic deaths or other failures could be identified and corrected. He finally gave up in frustration; they didn't want to. But without denying the role of doctors, part of the problem, as with drugs, is the same with all modern technology. As it becomes increasingly more complex, it becomes increasingly more difficult to track, let alone understand, all the consequences.

Finally, while I don’t think there’s anything wrong with us old folks doing high intensity exercise, I wouldn’t latch too firmly onto studies of gene transcripts. We really don’t know that much about what most of these genes are doing, particularly when some messages are up-regulated and some down-regulated. It’s certainly simplistic to equate larger numbers of messages altered with more beneficial effects. I don’t think the authors are doing this, but it’s possible, e.g., that expression of some genes is affected as a compensatory reaction to an unusual level of physiological stress or insult. This could be why there was a large set of genes affected only in older subjects. Speaking as a molecular biologist, I’d put more stock in the positive physiological and cellular effects of this exercise, also documented, than in sheer numbers of messages transcribed. Actually, speaking as a cyclist, I put even more stock in just how I feel after a hard ride.
Merckx index
Senior Member
 
Posts: 3,353
Joined: 27 Jul 2010 19:19

Re: Cardiac Anomalies - is something going on or is this nor

12 Jan 2018 10:35

Merckx index wrote:Xarelto, a drug I’ve taken off and on for several years with no problems, may be a good example. The link says there have been 18,000 lawsuits, and 370 deaths linked to the drug. Xarelto is used by millions people (as the link notes, it’s a billion dollar industry), so while 18,000 sounds like a lot of complaints, it probably represents less than 1% of the users. That’s unfortunate, but that number has to be put against the number of strokes that are prevented by its use. It would be nice if we could have a miracle cure for everything, but the reality is that there are benefit-risk ratios for everything. Or as we say in the Clinic, there's a balance between false positives and false negatives, between sensitivity and specificity.
To try and drag this back to the topic: while people's personal medical experiences are really, really, really wonderful, if you enjoy that sort of thing, extrapolating from limited personal experience to explain a real world 'problem' is not very clever. And, as has already been pointed out in this thread - and is contained within the title - the real issue is not what the problem is, but whether or not there really is a problem. So, bringing in Merckx index's point about the one percent perception issue, let's not forget that, out of a cohort of 500 or so top level professional cyclists, each year we see reported just two or three cardiac-related issues, usually arrhythmia. That's a half of one percent. So, all the sob stories aside, what does that really tell us?
User avatar fmk_RoI
Senior Member
 
Posts: 2,110
Joined: 16 Sep 2010 07:31

Re: Cardiac Anomalies - is something going on or is this nor

12 Jan 2018 10:57

Cmon man..be realistic; it's not just the 370 deaths (so far) but a total of 15,043 adverse event reports, many of which are serious. The collateral damage of this drug killing 370 people and injuring thousands can't be justified for saving many more lives. I hope the famiies of the victims and injured can collect millions from the lawsuits!

https://drugsafetynews.com/2017/08/08/xarelto-injuries-deaths-40-2016/

And the fact that medical errors are now the *3rd* leading cause of death in the U.S. is egregious & completely unacceptable. The renowned & late Dr. Starfield of JH published a paper in JAMA back in 2000 articulating the problems in the system with the errors, drug deaths & injuries, etc. Now almost 20 yrs later nothing has changed and, in fact, has gotten much worse. So it's business as usual...Que Sera Sera.

Granted, ER physicians & trauma surgeons are doing a tremendous job saving lives every day. But, IMO, most doctors who treat chronic diseases are merely foot soldiers for the pharmaceutical industry. They know nothing about nutrition, dismiss many dietary supplements as ineffective and continually push their drugs under the montra of "FDA certified safe & effective." And since doctors are trained to pay homage to "peer-reviewed" studies, when **** hits the fan with some of these drugs they simply fall back on these "peer-reviewed" studies that they hold in such high esteem. Heck, some of the journal editors now say you can't trust half of the medical studies anymore because of false info and fraud. Think of the stench coming from these studies that masquerade as the real deal. This is from the former NEJM editor Dr. Dr. Marcia Angell:

http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/top-editor-medical-journals-publish-fake-science-in-big-pharmas-pocket/article/2622228

And another journal editor pissed-off:

http://www.collective-evolution.com/2015/05/16/editor-in-chief-of-worlds-best-known-medical-journal-half-of-all-the-literature-is-false/

But all is well & good with the medical system.

Rainbows & marshmallows.
Nomad
Member
 
Posts: 323
Joined: 20 Apr 2016 01:39

PreviousNext

Return to The Clinic

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: brownbobby, EricDolphy, veganrob, Yahoo [Bot] and 31 guests

Back to top