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EPO is apparently useless

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Re: Dutch Study: "EPO little to no effect on trained cyclist

01 Jul 2017 17:51

Tonton wrote:How do you say BS in Dutch? :D

Literally:
Stierenstront, stierenkak.

Figuratively ("nonsense"):
Onzin, flauwekul, zever in zakskes.

For a short term effect things like amphetamines probably work more directly, but EPO is an enormous help to improve endurance in the longer term and enables riders to train more kilometers without getting exhausted.
La fatica in montagna per me è poesia (Fatigue in the mountains is poetry to me) - Marco Pantani
Van een ezel kunt ge geen koerspaard maken (You can't turn a donkey into a race horse) - Patrick Lefevere
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01 Jul 2017 18:24

Actually, the study said that there was no effect on 'hardly trained' cyclists (eg, tourists, or non sportsmen).

So it's a worthless study to begin with
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Re: Dutch Study: "EPO little to no effect on trained cyclist

01 Jul 2017 19:11

Strange Loop wrote:
Tonton wrote:How do you say BS in Dutch? :D


Onzin. (Although that's doesn't have the same negative connotation and most here will understand/use "******").

You can find the thread for this study here: http://forum.cyclingnews.com/viewtopic.php?f=20&t=33344


Can the mods merge this thread with the one above? Because the same article is discussed in that one, with a lot more replies.
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01 Jul 2017 23:50

Yup. EPO has no effect. That perfectly explains why Riis won a Tour. Or the 90's in general. Doesn't help people with kidney failure either. Useless drug. Amgen went bankrupt.

John Swanson
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Re: Re:

02 Jul 2017 02:10

sniper wrote:
Escarabajo wrote:...
Pantani, Riis, Armstrong, Virenque. All of them were wrong!!!

The latter three riders were likely using motorized bikes (and possibly the first rider, too) at various points in their carreer, so unfortunately they are not the best examples for measuring/analyzing the impact of EPO.

Oh please. Stop it!!!

And Bush killed Kennedy!!
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Re:

02 Jul 2017 09:01

ScienceIsCool wrote:Yup. EPO has no effect. That perfectly explains why Riis won a Tour. Or the 90's in general. Doesn't help people with kidney failure either. Useless drug. Amgen went bankrupt.

John Swanson

That's what always makes me roll my eyes... "There's no reliable data"... when there's a Mount Ventoux of aggregate of real world data pointing to the importance of Epo :Neutral:

Then again, it fits in what I think of the Dutch resurgence of the last ten years in all manners of sports.. we saw it before in the tail en d of the eighties. Soccer, Skating, Cycling, etc.. etc.

And lo and behold: We had a soccer team finding its groove, Skating has become a joke, our athletes all of a sudden can sprint again, we have our swimming stars... On cycling in that same timeframe we managed to get our own climbers again (Mollema/Ten Dam, Gesink), culminating in TD's win of the Giro (and SK should have won it last year).

It's a coincidence.. really. Just as the reports about how Epo does not work all of a sudden being pumped through our universities (Hello Harm Kuijpers). I assume these researchers are kosher, but one must wonder why this research came out at a time where this tiny country all of a sudden is performing on all cilinders again.

In earnest: In the timeframe 2008-2012 we made a gargantuan leap of which we are still seeing the effects.

=> When a country all of a sudden has a Renaissance in all kinds of sports, there's a Puerto behind it. With the obligatory smoke screens.
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Re:

02 Jul 2017 10:12

ScienceIsCool wrote:Yup. EPO has no effect. That perfectly explains why Riis won a Tour. Or the 90's in general. Doesn't help people with kidney failure either. Useless drug. Amgen went bankrupt.

John Swanson

EPO has great effect.
But I wouldn't say Riis 1996 hits it out of the ballpark.
Riis was on EPO well before 1996.
1996 something else happened.
In addition to EPO of course.
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02 Jul 2017 10:21

If we look at the results of the years before it's hardly revolutionary. Big Mig made a huge drop, but every name (including Riis) in that top ten had bona-fide GT history (except neo-pro Jan, but he was not exactly a star out of nowhere, we knew he was a huge talent).

Same with the classics.. Musseeuw before, Musseeuw after.

Yeah, all Epo fuelled, certainly, but contrary to the dramatic 1992 disappearance of the old guard, most stars in the epo era did fine during that decade.

Sorry, I think your hammering on the motors'is silly. There's no indication that this happened, no rumors. Cycling is way too leaky to make that plausible.
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Re:

02 Jul 2017 11:34

Franklin wrote:...There's no indication that this happened, no rumors.

Lol, I guess.

With all due respect, maybe you could consider reading the appropriate threads on motors first and maybe even try to address (if only a fraction of) the relevant evidence and arguments put forth therein.
Otherwise there is no breeding ground for a fruitful discussion on the topic.

To get back to my original point:
if you want to address the issue of the impact of EPO on (cycling) performance scientifically, then you'll want to control as many variables as possible.
So ideally you'll want to take performances of which you can be sure they did not involve motors.
As much as it saddens me, for reasons extensively laid out in the "first motor caught" thread, Riis 1996 is no such performance.

Indeed, by extension, it means that most of the topperformances from the mid-90s onwards are, in my view, unreliable data points. It's a sad state of affairs, and I wish it were different. I wish there was no cheating and no omerta. I really do.
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02 Jul 2017 12:03

I read them. Point to a rumor originating in that era and we can talk. Varjas showing a motor fits in a Trek *shrug*.

Let's turn this around, now shall we? Point out the dramatic change in 1996 and explain why the only one who got caught was Miguel Indurain. Perhaps his bike was unsuited for a motor. Oh wait, he had exactly the same bike as Riis. Maybe Miguel was a more honest person? Miguel lacked the cash?

Serious Snip[er, you are a good guy, but considering the dramatic change clearly is not supported by data your whole premise is odd. Suddenly everyone gets a motor except Miguel Indurain? That's extremely farfetched.
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Re:

02 Jul 2017 12:57

Franklin wrote:I read them. Point to a rumor originating in that era and we can talk. Varjas showing a motor fits in a Trek *shrug*.

Let's turn this around, now shall we? Point out the dramatic change in 1996 and explain why the only one who got caught was Miguel Indurain. Perhaps his bike was unsuited for a motor. Oh wait, he had exactly the same bike as Riis. Maybe Miguel was a more honest person? Miguel lacked the cash?

Serious Snip[er, you are a good guy, but considering the dramatic change clearly is not supported by data your whole premise is odd. Suddenly everyone gets a motor except Miguel Indurain? That's extremely farfetched.

I didn't say "everyone gets a motor".
I said top-performances from the mid 90s onwards, in my view, don't offer reliable data points.
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02 Jul 2017 13:16

Topics merged. Let me know if there is an issue with the merge, or anything else.

I too find the study not thorough, as they didn't use pros, and it looks like it took nothing into factor over long term training, plus day to day recovery, where some of the biggest gains are likely to be attained. It also jumps to conclusions, and as DFA123 noted on page three, it's completely irresponsible for a scientist to make a presumption that Armstrong "lost his jerseys to a drug that had no effect".

What's next? A study showing the minimal amount Floyd was over the limit on his testosterone positive had no affect on his performance on the Joux Plane?
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03 Jul 2017 20:39

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Re: Re:

03 Jul 2017 22:40

sniper wrote:
Franklin wrote:...There's no indication that this happened, no rumors.

Lol, I guess.

With all due respect, maybe you could consider reading the appropriate threads on motors first and maybe even try to address (if only a fraction of) the relevant evidence and arguments put forth therein.
Otherwise there is no breeding ground for a fruitful discussion on the topic.

To get back to my original point:
if you want to address the issue of the impact of EPO on (cycling) performance scientifically, then you'll want to control as many variables as possible.
So ideally you'll want to take performances of which you can be sure they did not involve motors.
As much as it saddens me, for reasons extensively laid out in the "first motor caught" thread, Riis 1996 is no such performance.

Indeed, by extension, it means that most of the topperformances from the mid-90s onwards are, in my view, unreliable data points. It's a sad state of affairs, and I wish it were different. I wish there was no cheating and no omerta. I really do.

What is your LOL for???
He was talking about the no test EPO era.

Please bring any rumor, book quote, or interview, confession about that era the motors were being used or cut the crap!!!

Who cares about the motor in an era when they were free to dope with EPO. Motor + free EPO, LOL. That's right I want to see those climbs!
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Re: EPO is apparently useless

04 Jul 2017 00:23

EPO is no better than orange juice.
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04 Jul 2017 05:50

Havent read the study. If the aim is to give a more nuanced view of the chain "increased hb mass -> increased vo2 uptake -> similarly increased performance capacity -> similarly increased actual race performance" then fair play. Even so it is stating a truism that can be spun in very unproductive ways as per usual.

If the argument is that epo is useless as a means of doping, then, well, it is so useless that evolution has made kidneys produce it naturally to regulate RBC production in humans. Clearly useless.
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Re:

04 Jul 2017 11:15

ScienceIsCool wrote:Yup. EPO has no effect. That perfectly explains why Riis won a Tour. Or the 90's in general. Doesn't help people with kidney failure either. Useless drug. Amgen went bankrupt.

John Swanson


I don't get this reply, but you're probably trolling. However, your username is "ScienceIsCool", so you apparently claim to have a thing for science.

The article, not the topic title, claims that EPO is not effective in enhancing performance; nowhere does it claim that EPO does "nothing" in the case of kidney failure. Now, I believe there are some severe flaws in the article, I wrote some of the problems I have down in this post, but there are a lot people commenting who didn't even bother to read the article (free access!).
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04 Jul 2017 12:14

Small doping scandal at the Österreich Rundfahrt, Matija Kvasina got busted busted for Molidustat, an HIF-stabilizer that stimulates erythropoietin production without hypertensive effects, as far as I know it's not really on the market and still in the riall phase, but don't quote me on that.
Sources: http://www.tuttobiciweb.it/2017/07/04/102830/positivo-il-croato-matija-kvasina-epo-doping-tuttobiciweb
http://www.laola1.at/de/red/sport-mix/radsport/oesterreich-rundfahrt/oesterreich-rundfahrt-teilnehmer-wegen-dopings-suspendiert/
Not a huge surprise, a guy who has been riding since 2004 and suddenly became way better in his 30ies.
Felbermayr - Simplon Wels are also one of the shadier Aistrian CT teams, Zoidl was never able to replicate the results that he got in 2013 when he was riding for them.
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Re: Re:

04 Jul 2017 12:49

Strange Loop wrote:
ScienceIsCool wrote:Yup. EPO has no effect. That perfectly explains why Riis won a Tour. Or the 90's in general. Doesn't help people with kidney failure either. Useless drug. Amgen went bankrupt.

John Swanson


I don't get this reply, but you're probably trolling. However, your username is "ScienceIsCool", so you apparently claim to have a thing for science.

The article, not the topic title, claims that EPO is not effective in enhancing performance; nowhere does it claim that EPO does "nothing" in the case of kidney failure. Now, I believe there are some severe flaws in the article, I wrote some of the problems I have down in this post, but there are a lot people commenting who didn't even bother to read the article (free access!).


....there is a form of irony that is used extensively in these parts, its called sarcasm, you should take a few moments to acquaint yourself with it....

....just sayin' eh....

Cheers
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04 Jul 2017 16:35

I heard from secondary sources that giving people a power meter already changed the training of participants.
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