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Doping in XC mtb

The Clinic is the only place on Cyclingnews where you can discuss doping-related issues. Ask questions, discuss positives or improvements to procedures.

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Doping in XC mtb

27 Jul 2017 22:33

Hello fellow Clinicians, haven't been on here in a long time but after a hiatus, the bloodlust (pun intended) for conspiracy theories and hypothetical musings have once again taken over... Bit of a random subject I hadn't seen posted to kick things off but definitely glad to be back, good to see it's as lively as when I left it.

Someone posted the news about young & promising Charlie Craig in another thread and likened it to the early days of EPO abuse, riders dying in their sleep etc which led me to query, XC mtb. Is it rife? Whilst it certainly comes across as a lot cleaner than it's road counterpart, there have been a few, very few, cases in the past.

I know Nino Schurter has tremendous palmares, but really? Week in, week out he effortlessly trounces every field and has done for years. Regardless of course, regardless of competitors, regardless of wheel size, since he came on the scene it's just phenomenal (read; unbelievable) how he does it.

Jaroslav Kulhavy, turns up one season, wins Olympics, wins Worlds then Specialized say, 'oh he's not racing because of *insert poor excuse here*' or some other nonsense. Always finds time to holiday in South Africa with Sauser for the Cape Epic though.

Julian Absalon has won pretty much everything there is to win but now is on the downward spiral, especially with younger French pretenders, as well as Van Der Poel coming on the scene he seems to be slipping down the rankings. Or maybe he's not responding as well as in his younger days.

Only bring this particular subject up because I seem to recollect many moons ago that Dario Cioni & Ryder Hesjedal had somewhat murky reputations in the late 90's/early 00's (Cioni was on Mapei MTB so no surprises there) but it was only ever Filip Meirhaghe to get popped. Even though after a quick wiki search, Bas Van Dooren also got caught, honestly saying, 'it was a gamble'. Quite refreshing honesty.

So it is the healthy, jaunt about in the forest that it's made out to be I ask...? :lol:
Been on a hiatus but the doping comedy is too much, I miss this place. :lol:
terribleone
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28 Jul 2017 00:18

I could have used some EPO on my ride last night...
User avatar red_flanders
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28 Jul 2017 13:58

Raced XC mt bikes since 94 up until 2012 when the courses have become too short.
FM was a big bust at the time I believe he was World Champion. I forgot the name of the cyclist who gave Miguel Martinez him his spot after admitting doping.
MR the chicken comes from the mt bike arena. Supposedly he taught the Canadians how to dope(think Ryder, Seamus, etc). Alan Labatka is another very shady character.
I always wondered about JK and how he came out of nowhere and how he goes back there, and pops up again. Jose Hermida might have had ties to Puerto.
It wouldn't surprise me if there is rampant doping, it also wouldn't surprise me if there was very little. Mt bike racers don't make a ton of coin and that stuff can get expensive(as opposed to the multi-millionaire mid lifer trying amateur races).
As for Nino, I wouldn't be surprised if he is on the sauce however, he has been a champ since he was a teen, he has won everything at every level(remember him crying after he flatted in the U23 WC and lost). Also, he is just technically superior on the bike to everyone else right now. He rides down things that most walk creating huge gaps and making the others work really hard on the ups to catch him.
Now the motor thing really throws everything upside down
User avatar papisimo98
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Re:

28 Jul 2017 16:28

papisimo98 wrote:Raced XC mt bikes since 94 up until 2012 when the courses have become too short.
FM was a big bust at the time I believe he was World Champion. I forgot the name of the cyclist who gave Miguel Martinez him his spot after admitting doping.
MR the chicken comes from the mt bike arena. Supposedly he taught the Canadians how to dope(think Ryder, Seamus, etc). Alan Labatka is another very shady character.
I always wondered about JK and how he came out of nowhere and how he goes back there, and pops up again. Jose Hermida might have had ties to Puerto.
It wouldn't surprise me if there is rampant doping, it also wouldn't surprise me if there was very little. Mt bike racers don't make a ton of coin and that stuff can get expensive(as opposed to the multi-millionaire mid lifer trying amateur races).
As for Nino, I wouldn't be surprised if he is on the sauce however, he has been a champ since he was a teen, he has won everything at every level(remember him crying after he flatted in the U23 WC and lost). Also, he is just technically superior on the bike to everyone else right now. He rides down things that most walk creating huge gaps and making the others work really hard on the ups to catch him.
Now the motor thing really throws everything upside down

Sagan also with an MTB background of course.

There were some interesting doping cases in the SA MTB scene.
David George was mainly MTB-ing when they caught him in 2012.
Rourke Croeser in 2015.
Both done for EPO.
Kevin Evans in 2016 for passport irregularities.

In the Netherlands we had Bas van Dooren testing positive in 2002 and lots of rumors regarding Bart Brentjes, who was trained by a doper (Theunisse) and worked/works with Trek.
Theunisse is seen as somebody who brought full throttle doping to the Dutch MTB scene.


As for motors in MTB, consumer models with silent hidden motors are available, so imo it's safe to assume pro's are/have been using, too:
Electric mountain bike with invisible engine?

After studies, trials, and staggering here is the perfect mountain bike.

The new solutions made it possible to build a bicycle with hidden engine. Apparently identical to the best mountai bikes traditionally.

The electric motor, lightweight, allows you to experience the most tiring bikes.

A Bhoss Cycling brand that once again impresses.
https://www.gazzettadellaspezia.it/index.php?option=com_k2&view=item&id=52524:mtb-elettrica-motore-invisibile-bhoss&Itemid=9619
sniper
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Re: Re:

30 Jul 2017 15:41

sniper wrote:
papisimo98 wrote:Raced XC mt bikes since 94 up until 2012 when the courses have become too short.
FM was a big bust at the time I believe he was World Champion. I forgot the name of the cyclist who gave Miguel Martinez him his spot after admitting doping.
MR the chicken comes from the mt bike arena. Supposedly he taught the Canadians how to dope(think Ryder, Seamus, etc). Alan Labatka is another very shady character.
I always wondered about JK and how he came out of nowhere and how he goes back there, and pops up again. Jose Hermida might have had ties to Puerto.
It wouldn't surprise me if there is rampant doping, it also wouldn't surprise me if there was very little. Mt bike racers don't make a ton of coin and that stuff can get expensive(as opposed to the multi-millionaire mid lifer trying amateur races).
As for Nino, I wouldn't be surprised if he is on the sauce however, he has been a champ since he was a teen, he has won everything at every level(remember him crying after he flatted in the U23 WC and lost). Also, he is just technically superior on the bike to everyone else right now. He rides down things that most walk creating huge gaps and making the others work really hard on the ups to catch him.
Now the motor thing really throws everything upside down

Sagan also with an MTB background of course.

There were some interesting doping cases in the SA MTB scene.
David George was mainly MTB-ing when they caught him in 2012.
Rourke Croeser in 2015.
Both done for EPO.
Kevin Evans in 2016 for passport irregularities.

In the Netherlands we had Bas van Dooren testing positive in 2002 and lots of rumors regarding Bart Brentjes, who was trained by a doper (Theunisse) and worked/works with Trek.
Theunisse is seen as somebody who brought full throttle doping to the Dutch MTB scene.


As for motors in MTB, consumer models with silent hidden motors are available, so imo it's safe to assume pro's are/have been using, too:
Electric mountain bike with invisible engine?

After studies, trials, and staggering here is the perfect mountain bike.

The new solutions made it possible to build a bicycle with hidden engine. Apparently identical to the best mountai bikes traditionally.

The electric motor, lightweight, allows you to experience the most tiring bikes.

A Bhoss Cycling brand that once again impresses.
https://www.gazzettadellaspezia.it/index.php?option=com_k2&view=item&id=52524:mtb-elettrica-motore-invisibile-bhoss&Itemid=9619


Nice one Sniper, I seriously could do with one of those...! Seems like MTB could be a sorta, intro guide to doping proper. Like Papisimo said, Chicken introduced it to RH and others and although smaller reward, winners cheques are winners cheques.

Papisimo, agree with pretty much everything you've said. Do you remember Christophe Dupouey, the ex WC winner who later committed suicide? He was divvying out Pot Belge and got a jail term for it before taking his own life. It's interesting how much overlay there is, another doper, Jerome Chiotti was on Festina before moving to GT I believe.

Interesting you bring up Hermida and Puerto. Hadn't thought of that link before. I really wish the findings from that would come out, if Fancy Bears can hack ADAMS & others, why not the results of Puerto? I feel like it'll be the only way anything comes out of that given how much the Spanish know they're sporting arses are on the line.

Regarding Nino, I do agree to an extent, its just the constant thumping of everyone else but tbh, Absalon was doing it for years before him too. So I guess my question would be, is the Swiss/French just really good breeding grounds for talent or is there some kind of semi organised program going on by those federations, particularly as they've both ruled the top 10's of WC's for decades now.

red_flanders wrote:I could have used some EPO on my ride last night...


Didn't know you had a place in St Moritz Red... :lol:
terribleone
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Re:

01 Aug 2017 10:29

papisimo98 wrote:Raced XC mt bikes since 94 up until 2012 when the courses have become too short.
FM was a big bust at the time I believe he was World Champion. I forgot the name of the cyclist who gave Miguel Martinez him his spot after admitting doping.
MR the chicken comes from the mt bike arena. Supposedly he taught the Canadians how to dope(think Ryder, Seamus, etc). Alan Labatka is another very shady character.
I always wondered about JK and how he came out of nowhere and how he goes back there, and pops up again. Jose Hermida might have had ties to Puerto.
It wouldn't surprise me if there is rampant doping, it also wouldn't surprise me if there was very little. Mt bike racers don't make a ton of coin and that stuff can get expensive(as opposed to the multi-millionaire mid lifer trying amateur races).
As for Nino, I wouldn't be surprised if he is on the sauce however, he has been a champ since he was a teen, he has won everything at every level(remember him crying after he flatted in the U23 WC and lost). Also, he is just technically superior on the bike to everyone else right now. He rides down things that most walk creating huge gaps and making the others work really hard on the ups to catch him.
Now the motor thing really throws everything upside down

Who's JK?
Kokoso
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Re: Re:

01 Aug 2017 10:45

Kokoso wrote:
papisimo98 wrote:Raced XC mt bikes since 94 up until 2012 when the courses have become too short.
FM was a big bust at the time I believe he was World Champion. I forgot the name of the cyclist who gave Miguel Martinez him his spot after admitting doping.
MR the chicken comes from the mt bike arena. Supposedly he taught the Canadians how to dope(think Ryder, Seamus, etc). Alan Labatka is another very shady character.
I always wondered about JK and how he came out of nowhere and how he goes back there, and pops up again. Jose Hermida might have had ties to Puerto.
It wouldn't surprise me if there is rampant doping, it also wouldn't surprise me if there was very little. Mt bike racers don't make a ton of coin and that stuff can get expensive(as opposed to the multi-millionaire mid lifer trying amateur races).
As for Nino, I wouldn't be surprised if he is on the sauce however, he has been a champ since he was a teen, he has won everything at every level(remember him crying after he flatted in the U23 WC and lost). Also, he is just technically superior on the bike to everyone else right now. He rides down things that most walk creating huge gaps and making the others work really hard on the ups to catch him.
Now the motor thing really throws everything upside down

Who's JK?

Jaroslav Kulhavy I presume...
glassmoon
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02 Aug 2017 00:17

You've left off some names (I'll use initials since we 'can't prove it'): HDj was the first to show the hippies how to use a different kind of dope, all of SUUN-Chippie, KM, SL, RG...several others, but my mind is as sharp as a bar of soap. Most of the crap we type in this forum is just BS to entertain ourselves and each other, we really don't have a clue. In this case I feel like I have a slight clue. I tried my hand at being a dirt pro in the 90s (well I kept my pro licence for a lot longer, but the only thing pro was the licence). There were a few guys who I raced against almost every weekend who over one winter suddenly became not only NORBA killers, they also became regulars on the box at world cups/world champs.

Flash to today. I think that there are genetic freaks and Nino is one of them. Certainly, any of the guys at the top of all of the disciplines are gifted, but NS is a full on freak with a mad focused work ethic. There's more of that crap because I have no way to prove it, but I do believe it. I also agree with whoever posted that most of these guys couldn't afford it. There's no money in dirt anymore.

EDIT: To be clear, I'm not typing any of this as 'sour grapes' because I have no illusion that I would have been somebody. Take out the dopers and I move up from 27th to 20th at NORBA Nats. Once I got a job and just raced for fun, local and regional stuff was my game, and I'm confident that there was no pharma.
jmdirt
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Re:

03 Aug 2017 23:00

Thanks, JMdirt, definitely agree about Sunn & RG imparticularly. Sunn, and also GT were monstrous in that era. I remember lusting over many a GT Xiang & Sunn XC rig back in the day. Interesting no-one has mentioned Cadel. I think he was clean whilst in MTB & for the majority of his career on the road, until he came to the realisation that 'if you can't beat em, join em' kinda thing, but then I also heard that he used to gloat he was "the only Aussie with a Ferrari engine" so make of that what you will.

RG went from small time to unbeatable beast in 2 seasons if I remember correctly. Shame there isn't more old footage of the mid 90's/early 00's Grundig World Cup on youtube. Nino is a phenomenal athlete but it's just the longevity of it but if you ride bikes everyday in the Swiss alps your entire life, you're gonna be pretty gifted. It could be argued that Absalon didn't have much by way of competition until Nino came around I guess but that's disrespectful. Anyone on the start line of a World Cup event is gonna be a freaking monster tbh. Feel free to DM if you wanna reveal a bit more about these NORBA killers, I have a rough idea who you might be talking about but like you said, it's all speculation and just shooting the ****. Congrats at top 30 at NORBA's though, thats an engine I'd be proud of man.

Haha, 'my mind is as sharp as a bar of soap', I like that. I'm gonna use that. Can thoroughly relate. :lol:

jmdirt wrote:You've left off some names (I'll use initials since we 'can't prove it'): HDj was the first to show the hippies how to use a different kind of dope, all of SUUN-Chippie, KM, SL, RG...several others, but my mind is as sharp as a bar of soap. Most of the crap we type in this forum is just BS to entertain ourselves and each other, we really don't have a clue. In this case I feel like I have a slight clue. I tried my hand at being a dirt pro in the 90s (well I kept my pro licence for a lot longer, but the only thing pro was the licence). There were a few guys who I raced against almost every weekend who over one winter suddenly became not only NORBA killers, they also became regulars on the box at world cups/world champs.

Flash to today. I think that there are genetic freaks and Nino is one of them. Certainly, any of the guys at the top of all of the disciplines are gifted, but NS is a full on freak with a mad focused work ethic. There's more of that crap because I have no way to prove it, but I do believe it. I also agree with whoever posted that most of these guys couldn't afford it. There's no money in dirt anymore.

EDIT: To be clear, I'm not typing any of this as 'sour grapes' because I have no illusion that I would have been somebody. Take out the dopers and I move up from 27th to 20th at NORBA Nats. Once I got a job and just raced for fun, local and regional stuff was my game, and I'm confident that there was no pharma.
terribleone
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10 Aug 2017 14:49

I thought about this thread for awhile and I began to wonder:
Why would any top level XC racer(think Absalon, Nino, Kulhavy, Sauser, etc) stay in XC racing when there is so much more money in road racing.
Jakob Fuglsang pops to mind who is doing well on the road, and he wasn't even winning at the XC level. Ondrej Cink is another who just made the jump to the road without winning much at the XC world cup level.
At one race i attended back in the day I was staying next to Walker Ferguson(former U23 xc world champ). He stated that guys tend to stay in XC due to less doping and the fact on a good day, anything can happen.
So it makes me wonder why these guys stay in XC when the can clearly go road. Maybe it is cleaner?
User avatar papisimo98
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Re:

12 Aug 2017 15:27

papisimo98 wrote:I thought about this thread for awhile and I began to wonder:
Why would any top level XC racer(think Absalon, Nino, Kulhavy, Sauser, etc) stay in XC racing when there is so much more money in road racing.
Jakob Fuglsang pops to mind who is doing well on the road, and he wasn't even winning at the XC level. Ondrej Cink is another who just made the jump to the road without winning much at the XC world cup level.
At one race i attended back in the day I was staying next to Walker Ferguson(former U23 xc world champ). He stated that guys tend to stay in XC due to less doping and the fact on a good day, anything can happen.
So it makes me wonder why these guys stay in XC when the can clearly go road. Maybe it is cleaner?

My gut feeling is that you are on to something. Sniper is obsessed with motor fraud, but if you think about it, it would be easier to hide on the dirt: tire noise would cover motor noise, time with no one around to notice that you made a huge acceleration up a grunt, etc. Any rider using an FS bike though would need to have a hub motor since the seat tubes on many of the FS bikes are "shaped", pivots pierce them, and they don't align with the BB. I'm still very unconvinced about hub motors in general, and especially for dirt since most (all?) use through axles. NS uses DT hubs which don't have large volume (especially once you poke the 12 mm axle through it).
https://www.dtswiss.com/Components/Hubs-MTB/180-carbon-ceramic-RW

If we see a resurgence of the huge volume hubs...
jmdirt
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12 Aug 2017 16:45

Well yeah, I think motors are the elephant in the room.
Motivation, opportunity and the thief are all there, and have been there for many many years.

It's definitely happening in MTB, I think, although I have no idea about the scale of it compared to road cycling.

What you should do is look a bit closer at the behavior of top finishers shortly after the finish.
You'll notice that some guys cannot have their bikes removed from them by their mechanic quickly enough.
Which is weird. It's as if they're hiding their bike, even though that moment after the finish is the ideal moment to promote your bike brand.
I'll try to find an example. Or maybe somebody recognizes what I'm talking about and can help find an example.
sniper
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Re:

12 Aug 2017 18:37

sniper wrote:Well yeah, I think motors are the elephant in the room.
Motivation, opportunity and the thief are all there, and have been there for many many years.

It's definitely happening in MTB, I think, although I have no idea about the scale of it compared to road cycling.

What you should do is look a bit closer at the behavior of top finishers shortly after the finish.
You'll notice that some guys cannot have their bikes removed from them by their mechanic quickly enough.
Which is weird. It's as if they're hiding their bike, even though that moment after the finish is the ideal moment to promote your bike brand.
I'll try to find an example. Or maybe somebody recognizes what I'm talking about and can help find an example.

I'd have to go back and watch all of the finishes again to be certain, but at most of the races the racers are standing around, straddling their bikes, and talking. MT.SA is the most recent so its the freshest in my memory, and I'm nearly certain that's what happened there. NS's bike was leaning against a banner during the champagne spraying I think.

I certainly won't say that its not happening in dirt racing, but it would be much more difficult for many reasons (some that I listed above).

EDIT: If the mech takes the bike and stuffs it in the truck, that's fishy at best, but if the mech is grabbing it to get a prime spot near the podium that's smart. So just grabbing the bike means nothing, what is happening after that does.
jmdirt
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13 Aug 2017 14:14

fair points, jmdirt.

I found a case in point.
Go to 1:45:00 in the following coverage of July's worldcup race in Lenzerheide:
https://www.redbull.com/se-en/watch-uci-mtb-world-cup-2017-from-lenzerheide-live-stream
(if you have a slow connection it might take a while for the film to load)
In that race, Sintsov gets a third place, his best achievement ever.
After the finish (1:45:00) you see his mechanic(?) very quickly removing his bike, which i find odd as it would be a good moment for photos, although admittedly there's no way of telling where the mech takes the bike (maybe as you say he takes it to the podium, although I find it unlikely)
(btw, there is a clever button there in the screen to go back 10 secs)

Also, I don't see the BMC letters on his bike, which again I find weird from a sponsor perspective.
On this facebook page the JBG2 Team do in fact tag BMC.
https://web.facebook.com/jbg2team/posts/1497097460328866:0?_rdc=1&_rdr
sniper
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13 Aug 2017 21:03

I did an easy ride today so while I was spinning up a 20 minute climb (10 if riding hard :), the Stade hypothetical motor popped into my head. My number one question is still the same as I posted on the Motor Fraud thread: how do you get a skewer through it to hold the wheel on, especially a 12 mm through axle for dirt use? Another question is, how does the motor spindle get its power to the freewheel? The spindle is really small, are they assuming to use watch size gears to get the power to the freewheel? If so, would that even last for one ride? The lack of explanation of how their hypothetical motor would work just makes me doubt them more.

I didn't spend much time looking, but here is a planetary gear drive that could be used with the motor to allow it to drive the freewheel:

http://www3.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin/wti0001p?&I=LXWVT4&P=FR&atrkid=V3ADW3A24148B_10642245165_pla-69845187350__36556522365_g_c_pla_with_promotion__1o3&gclid=Cj0KCQjw8b_MBRDcARIsAKJE7lkisiHNGaKX7ys-H7l4Phq-li69V9hZwtQqwZrZWdmfS5-qn3y34OQaAq32EALw_wcB

That's one more piece that has to be added inside of limited space.

They could spline (key) the end of the shaft and put a gear directly on it, but that would require a unique freehub body housing too. And that still leaves the question of the small spindle handling the loads needed.

Again, I'm not saying that no one would do it or it can't be done, but the rear hub just doesn't seem like the most workable area. IMO, there is no rear hub motor in use in pro dirt racing. If you want to find space for hidden motor development, how about the BB?
jmdirt
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14 Aug 2017 08:20

Right, this thread is locked until we sort it out.
Vincenzo Nibali:
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Reduce your carbon footprint, ride steel.
User avatar King Boonen
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14 Aug 2017 12:52

Right, that conversation has been removed and the thread is open again.

Do not bait other members and do not attack other members.
Vincenzo Nibali:
"I know how to ride a bike"

Reduce your carbon footprint, ride steel.
User avatar King Boonen
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Re:

14 Aug 2017 15:02

sniper wrote:fair points, jmdirt.

I found a case in point.
Go to 1:45:00 in the following coverage of July's worldcup race in Lenzerheide:
https://www.redbull.com/se-en/watch-uci-mtb-world-cup-2017-from-lenzerheide-live-stream
(if you have a slow connection it might take a while for the film to load)
In that race, Sintsov gets a third place, his best achievement ever.
After the finish (1:45:00) you see his mechanic(?) very quickly removing his bike, which i find odd as it would be a good moment for photos, although admittedly there's no way of telling where the mech takes the bike (maybe as you say he takes it to the podium, although I find it unlikely)
(btw, there is a clever button there in the screen to go back 10 secs)

Also, I don't see the BMC letters on his bike, which again I find weird from a sponsor perspective.
On this facebook page the JBG2 Team do in fact tag BMC.
https://web.facebook.com/jbg2team/posts/1497097460328866:0?_rdc=1&_rdr

The team guy does grab the bike, but like I said, what does he do with it? Did he grab it because he wanted to get the mud off (so you could see the BMC) or because he is trying to hide something? That video also shows many of the riders just ride through the finish and into the crowd. Are they being sneaky or just heading out for a cool down?
jmdirt
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28 Aug 2017 18:39

At the end of the race yesterday most of the riders were hanging around the finish with their bikes. NS certainly wasn't trying to hide his bike.
jmdirt
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13 Sep 2017 21:38

The WC results are always worth taking a peek at. The results always seem a little strange, like the Olympic race.
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