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Dutch ex-cycling doctor reveals...

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Dutch ex-cycling doctor reveals...

09 Sep 2017 11:52

Peter Janssen (75y), has done some big revelations in one of our national newspapers. He worked for PDM, Bankgiroloterij and Vacansoleil in the past.

I don't want to translate the whole article, but here are some main points
- In the late 80-ties he already started doing blood transfusions at PDM, he says he was the first one who introduced it in this way in the peloton. By freezing blood of riders like Rooks and Theunisse, and then re-injecting it right before big goals.
- He got the idea from Conconi who used other sporters blood for Francesco Mosers 1984 world hour record attempt. But instead of transfusing blood from others, it would be more effective to use own blood. 'Luckily' as Dutch company had just started a process for freezing blood for dutch military expats. So he called them and that's how it got started
- He also says Leontien van Moorsel and her husband Michael Zijlaard visited and he provided Van Moorsel with EPO and explained how to use it.
-Also did blood checks for vacansoleil before they contracted riders. When Daan Luijckx asked to check Ruben Plaza, Janssen gave a negative advice, because it was very clear Plaza was manipulating with EPO.
-Says it also almost went wrong a couple of times. In 2004 Lars Bak one a stage in Luxembourg, but was panicking after the control, and told Janssen "damn I used EPO". Luckily there was no positive.. (!?!?).

Lot's of **** about Vacansoleil as well. As expected
User avatar Dekker_Tifosi
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09 Sep 2017 12:24

Thanks, this is interesting.

He wasn't the first one to use own blood though, de Vlaeminck was on Moser's team in 1984 and says they asked him if he wanted to store some of his blood to reinfuse.

Anyway, Rooks and Theunisse using blood bags ties in with what we know from 1988 and if he says he started with those two it means they weren't doing it in 1987 when Delgado was on the squad. That's an important piece of data for the timeline.

Shame it doesn't shed any light on the early days of EPO.

He also names Eddy Bouwmans as a doper. If I had a nickel for every time someone claimed that Bouwmans was a poor clean rider who would've been a star if not for others doping, I would be a rich man now
User avatar GuyIncognito
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09 Sep 2017 12:44

Moser used other riders blood of same blood type. Read what I said from the idea of Conconi. In 1984 they were not using own blood, they were using other sporters blood with same blood type. They had no freezing process in 1984
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Re: Dutch ex-cycling doctor reveals...

09 Sep 2017 12:59

Dekker_Tifosi wrote:
Lot's of **** about Vacansoleil as well. As expected
Why no names, though? I'm particularly interested in Poels.
18-Valve. (pithy)
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Re: Dutch ex-cycling doctor reveals...

09 Sep 2017 13:03

Even though the full article is behind a pay wall, a summarized version (still in dutch) can be found here. I agree with GuyIncognito that it fits in neatly with what we already know about PDM in 1988 and that it's a shame he doesn't seem to say more about the beginning of the EPO era.

Another noteworthy aspect is the fact that a 1993 visit by Ab Krook is mentioned, who is a very influential ice skating coach.

There's also a reaction by Leontien van Moorsel in a separate article. The reaction dismisses the story as "vague insinuations". She also claims "nothing suspicious has ever been found in her medical tests". Leontien van Moorsel claims to have worked with Janssen from the age of 8 until the late 1990s.
HSNHSN
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Re:

09 Sep 2017 13:47

GuyIncognito wrote:He also names Eddy Bouwmans as a doper. If I had a nickel for every time someone claimed that Bouwmans was a poor clean rider who would've been a star if not for others doping, I would be a rich man now
You must have missed a lot.

Eddy Bouwmans himself already confessed that he used EPO a few times. Problem for him was, it didnt do him any good.
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09 Sep 2017 13:50

Since age 8? I remember her racing with the junior boys in Holland when I raced there as a junior after high school (US).
Huapango
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Re: Dutch ex-cycling doctor reveals...

09 Sep 2017 13:51

HSNHSN wrote:Even though the full article is behind a pay wall, a summarized version (still in dutch) can be found here. I agree with GuyIncognito that it fits in neatly with what we already know about PDM in 1988 and that it's a shame he doesn't seem to say more about the beginning of the EPO era.

Another noteworthy aspect is the fact that a 1993 visit by Ab Krook is mentioned, who is a very influential ice skating coach.

There's also a reaction by Leontien van Moorsel in a separate article. The reaction dismisses the story as "vague insinuations". She also claims "nothing suspicious has ever been found in her medical tests". Leontien van Moorsel claims to have worked with Janssen from the age of 8 until the late 1990s.


That van Moorsel response looks like it came out of the same silverline exercise book that Alan Wells looked in for his excuses when Mark Daly at the BBC bust him.

[Twitter is a give away isn't it. When the Sunday Times were starting to run with their "a famous British runner had blood passport values off the scales" story, Paula's twitter feed had gone on hold some days before, undoubtedly after she had lawyered up for the initial meeting and was waiting to see what the outcome was of the stand-off between her guys and the ST. Whilst Wells was never a great tweeter, it is telling that up to that story he did put out quite a few tweets and since it broke over two years ago he has just put out one - to support hiw wife's business. Whistling in the wind is just too kind a phrase for all these denials after these dopers have been exposed. I suppose it is better that they continue to lie rather than the "I only used it once and I did not find it improved my performance" type BS.]

That line from van Moorsel "nothing suspicious has ever been found in her medical tests" is so 2012 ish - hasn't she been keeping up. Mind I am surprised she was referring to them as according to Monique Kohl the testing regime knew they had to give her a miss and she did not have too many. And that sounds like a lot of the unsubstationable rumours about testing in the UK in the early to mid 90's and Peter Keen exercising influence.
http://www.omroepbrabant.nl/?news/253039902/Monique+Knol+beschuldigt+Leontien+van+Moorsel+van+gebruik+doping.aspx
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Re:

09 Sep 2017 14:45

Dekker_Tifosi wrote:Moser used other riders blood of same blood type. Read what I said from the idea of Conconi. In 1984 they were not using own blood, they were using other sporters blood with same blood type. They had no freezing process in 1984


I read that. What I'm saying is I doubt it's true because De Vlaeminck said they asked him in 1984 if he wanted to store his blood in the fridge.
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Re: Re:

09 Sep 2017 15:59

The key method of the Ferrara lab was autotransfusion with frozen blood and if Moser used blood doping for his 51,151 meters, I see very little reason to believe that he had used compatible blood instead of his own.

It is absolutely true that shortly after the 1984 succesful attempt, from somewhere emerged the rumour about the homologous transfusions being carried out. A Finnish sports magazine Urheilulehti for instance wrote the following only a few weeks after the one hour record in 1984:
Everything wasn't as it seemed to be when Italian Francesco Moser rode recently the one hour world record, claims the prestigious Belgian sports journal Sport 80. The journal insinuates that Moser was a subject of so-called blood doping, and according to Italian information they have, Moser had with him in México two heart surgeons and eight young men aged 18-20 whose blood type matched that of Moser's.

The most simple solution is that the Dutch doctor thought that Moser had used only compatible blood. Google gives no clue about the Sport 80 magazine, so there must've been a typo in the article, but the Finnish magazine has some Belgian source for the claim.
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Re: Re:

09 Sep 2017 16:53

GuyIncognito wrote:
Dekker_Tifosi wrote:Moser used other riders blood of same blood type. Read what I said from the idea of Conconi. In 1984 they were not using own blood, they were using other sporters blood with same blood type. They had no freezing process in 1984


I read that. What I'm saying is I doubt it's true because De Vlaeminck said they asked him in 1984 if he wanted to store his blood in the fridge.


"A refrigerator (colloquially fridge) is a popular household appliance that consists of a thermally insulated compartment and a heat pump (mechanical, electronic or chemical) that transfers heat from the inside of the fridge to its external environment so that the inside of the fridge is cooled to a temperature below the ambient temperature of the room. Refrigeration is an essential food storage technique in developed countries. The lower temperature lowers the reproduction rate of bacteria, so the refrigerator reduces the rate of spoilage. A refrigerator maintains a temperature a few degrees above the freezing point of water. Optimum temperature range for perishable food storage is 3 to 5 °C (37 to 41 °F).[1] A similar device that maintains a temperature below the freezing point of water is called a freezer."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Refrigerator

I hope that helps.
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Re: Dutch ex-cycling doctor reveals...

09 Sep 2017 17:54

18-Valve. (pithy) wrote:
Dekker_Tifosi wrote:
Lot's of **** about Vacansoleil as well. As expected
Why no names, though? I'm particularly interested in Poels.

No, it was mainly about the guys contracted by Luijckx, like almost Plaza. Nothing specific
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09 Sep 2017 19:31

So he didn't really say anything bad about Vacansoleil itself?
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Re:

09 Sep 2017 20:19

hrotha wrote:So he didn't really say anything bad about Vacansoleil itself?


He insisted on testing blood values for potential signings at Vacansoleil, Plaza was "code red'" afterwards they wanted to sign the Feillu brothers and the doctor said they also had to be tested but that didn't happen and shorly after that in 2009 Doctor Janssen retired from cycling because the trust wasn't restored and he had had enough of the opportunism at Vaconsoleil according to the article.
After he left Ricco was also flagged as red but Daan Luijkx signed him anyway.
They also signed Clement L'hotellerie despite warnings from who Janssen had worked with him at Skil and had told him he was using epo, testosterone and cortisone. He had even tipped of Zorzoli when he saw L'hotellerie win the KOM competition in Paris-Nice. Janssen had him tested 12 times in six months at Vacansoleil before he was red but at that point he had also tested positive in competition for methylhexanamine.
Last edited by Slangeveld on 09 Sep 2017 20:33, edited 1 time in total.
Slangeveld
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09 Sep 2017 20:29

yeah the morals at vacansoleil were rotten but we knew that already

Hoogerland finished 14th in the Vuelta and later even top 10 in the Tirreno, never ever achieved that level again.
Westra was also much stronger than later years.
Well I don't trust anyone from that team in those years
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Re: Dutch ex-cycling doctor reveals...

09 Sep 2017 20:51

Dekker_Tifosi wrote:- In the late 80-ties he already started doing blood transfusions at PDM, he says he was the first one who introduced it in this way in the peloton. By freezing blood of riders like Rooks and Theunisse, and then re-injecting it right before big goals.
- He got the idea from Conconi who used other sporters blood for Francesco Mosers 1984 world hour record attempt. But instead of transfusing blood from others, it would be more effective to use own blood. 'Luckily' as Dutch company had just started a process for freezing blood for dutch military expats. So he called them and that's how it got started
Do you have the actual quote for him saying he introduced transfusions to the peloton? I know for a fact that this is bull. Further, if he learned the technique from Conconi (though Winnen in 2013 said the knowledge came from Germany) then surely it's hard to believe such a claim?
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Re:

09 Sep 2017 20:53

Dekker_Tifosi wrote:Moser used other riders blood of same blood type. Read what I said from the idea of Conconi. In 1984 they were not using own blood, they were using other sporters blood with same blood type. They had no freezing process in 1984
Again, this does not tie in with known facts: CONI had given Conconi a wodge of dosh to buy a freezer and centrifuge.
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09 Sep 2017 21:00

Hey don't shoot the messenger. It's not I who said it. But that's what in the papers. He is selling his book so I'd take anything with a pinch of salt
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Re:

09 Sep 2017 21:49

Dekker_Tifosi wrote:Hey don't shoot the messenger. It's not I who said it. But that's what in the papers. He is selling his book so I'd take anything with a pinch of salt
Actual quotes would allow us to judge that. From what I've read he said 1988 was the first time he used blood bags, not the first time they were used in the peloton.
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Re: Dutch ex-cycling doctor reveals...

10 Sep 2017 04:09

Checking in with the story. I hope all is well with the regulars.

https://www.volkskrant.nl/sport/oud-wielerarts-leontien-van-moorsel-gebruikte-epo%7Ea4515790/

https://nos.nl/artikel/2192073-voormalig-wielerarts-brengt-van-moorsel-in-verband-met-epo.html

What I want to know is WHY a guy that had no problem (at all) with running uncontrolled human experiments for decades is suddenly telling all.

BTW, we know for sure the UCI knew all about it. They knew about Conconi. They knew about Ferrari. If he was doping anyone on the passport, they definitely knew.

As usual, it is such a dirty, rotten, sports federation in the worst meaning of the words dirty and rotten.
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