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Dutch ex-cycling doctor reveals...

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10 Sep 2017 06:22

What I want to know is WHY a guy that had no problem (at all) with running uncontrolled human experiments for decades is suddenly telling all.


Its not suddenly, he has been writing articles for years on his own website. The only difference is he is naming a few new names.

I have allways enjoyed reading his articles they are very insightfull.

http://endurancesupport.com/activiteiten/
Its not the easiest site to navigate, just type a word in the searchbar and you get articles.
Tienus
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10 Sep 2017 07:57

At least now we know for sure that it really wasn't EPO, but only blood transfusions that made Rooks that strong in 1988.

The question that remains is whether Conconi onconi and his clients were the true pioneers of EPO or not. Mathieu Hermans confessed he used it in 89 and very likely at the 1988 Vuelta as well. That's before Bugno & Chiapucci!
User avatar staubsauger
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Re:

10 Sep 2017 08:28

staubsauger wrote:At least now we know for sure that it really wasn't EPO, but only blood transfusions that made Rooks that strong in 1988.

The question that remains is whether Conconi onconi and his clients were the true pioneers of EPO or not. Mathieu Hermans confessed he used it in 89 and very likely at the 1988 Vuelta as well. That's before Bugno & Chiapucci!

If my memory is sound, Mathieu Hermans has told that his team doctor in late 1980s was Fuentes and that he himself has used rEPO. Secondary sources are always unreliable and I've never seen anyone quoting directly the Het Laatste Geel - book with the context where he discusses these issues, so I wouldn't be 100% certain that the two things are connected at all.
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10 Sep 2017 08:50

The early PDM stuff is fascinating too. He says that he was the first real doctor at PDM, where previously everything was done by soigneurs. They didn't want him there at all, because they were treated as gods and got lots of money as gifts from the riders. So after 2 years of not making headway he sneaked into the room of a soigneur during lunch and wrote down all the stuff he found. The main doping product was Andriol (testosterone), which was given routinely.

He decided that the only way for him to stay in cycling was if he used his medical knowledge to help with the doping. He knew that the testosterone test was based on the TE-value, where the normal value is 1, but a doping positive requires 6 or higher. So he figured that there was a lot of room for doping by bringing riders close to, but not over 6.

He contacted the accredited lab in Utrecht (Netherlands) and got them to test some urine samples where the riders had taken 1 or 2 capsules of Andriol in the afternoon. Two urine samples were taken from each rider, one in the morning and one in the afternoon. To the surprise of both Janssen and the director of the doping lab, the morning samples were positive for all riders, but the afternoon samples were all negative. The director of the doping lab accused him of messing with the samples, because he didn't believe that a rider could have a TE-value of 100 in the morning and less than 6 in the afternoon.

So Janssen claims that he was the one that figured out that Andriol makes people glow for only 24 hours.

Janssen says that Theunisse was extremely cocky and didn't want to participate in these tests. He tested positive for testosterone that year in the Tour (1988). Janssen says that he was angry, because they had a better system, where riders would get transfusions during the race.

He says that they got 1 blood bag before the first stage and 2 on July 11th in Strasbourg.

An interesting detail is that Janssen eventually got Theunisse an extensive test and he turned out to have naturally low epitestosterone values. So he glowed for 4 days, rather than 1. Janssen beliefs that this is why Theunisse tested positive so many times.
Last edited by Aapjes on 10 Sep 2017 09:00, edited 1 time in total.
Aapjes
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10 Sep 2017 08:56

The reaction by Eddy Bouwmans is quite amusing, BTW. he 'can't remember anything about blood transfusions.'

As if you'd forget such a thing.

And Janssen actually owns the shirt in which Tommy Simpson died.
Last edited by Aapjes on 10 Sep 2017 10:14, edited 1 time in total.
Aapjes
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10 Sep 2017 09:40

Bak was kind of obivious. In his early years he was amazing, winning a lot like avenir. He probably stopped now, as the results most defiantly arent the same.
Frankschleck
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10 Sep 2017 10:18

So. He reads an article about Conconi (hence, perhaps, the confusion over whose blood?). Another report brings to his attention a Dutch blood bank. A bit of practice on himself and - presto! - PDM has a blood doping programme. He gives a cost per bag - can someone confirm the amount? TIA - which helps us put a number on what we typically describe as an "expensive and logistically challenging" practice. When the Dutch blood bank is no longer available he switches to Germany (so Winnen wasn't fully wrong - but I'm not clear on actual dates here). Says blood bags were also used in 89.
User avatar fmk_RoI
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10 Sep 2017 10:28

Let's take a guy who joined the team for those years. Kelly. Kelly wasn't really any better with PDM. So the blood bags don't seem to have done much for him.

Meanwhile, Rooks was clearly much better in 88 than previously....but not so in 89.
User avatar GuyIncognito
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Re: Re:

10 Sep 2017 10:34

"Jeff" wrote:
Eddy Bouwmans himself already confessed that he used EPO a few times. Problem for him was, it didnt do him any good.


It is a different story here. Bouwmans claimed he discovered EPO in 1994, which means very late after EPO entered the peloton and while it was already widespread. That was also his last year with Post, in the Histor/Novemail year.

The story told by Dr Janssen - if true - dates from the Panasonic years (unless he mixed that up a bit), so between 1990 & 92 and is about blood transfusions and not EPO. It's the most interesting part for me. It means that Panasonic was not totally outclassed by EPO team and had kept sophisticated dope. Should we believe that Post was ahead of Raas in this respect? :p

It's interesting that Janssen followed Rooks and Theunisse defecting from PDM to Panasonic in 1990. Old news but I didn't know it, must confess. I've always thought it was an irony because 1990 is probably the year PDM discovered EPO. So Janssen, Rooks and Theunisse missed the EPO bandwagon.

Staubsauger said: At least now we know for sure that it really wasn't EPO, but only blood transfusions that made Rooks that strong in 1988.


Really, is there anything new here? Steven Rooks admitted to discovering EPO in 1991 just before his comeback at top level with 3rd place at the Worlds. It's been known for 10 years or so. About 5 years ago, it's been known that PDM were flying with blood transfusion until 1989...

Aapjes said: And he actually owns the shirt in which Tommy Simpson died.


What's wrong with that? Thanks for the informative post above though.
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Re:

10 Sep 2017 10:39

GuyIncognito wrote:Let's take a guy who joined the team for those years. Kelly. Kelly wasn't really any better with PDM. So the blood bags don't seem to have done much for him.

Meanwhile, Rooks was clearly much better in 88 than previously....but not so in 89.
It's a mistake to believe a) that everyone offered blood accepted and b) everyone was offered.
User avatar fmk_RoI
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Re:

10 Sep 2017 10:39

GuyIncognito wrote:Let's take a guy who joined the team for those years. Kelly. Kelly wasn't really any better with PDM. So the blood bags don't seem to have done much for him.

Meanwhile, Rooks was clearly much better in 88 than previously....but not so in 89.


Not really on both account. Kelly found back his old Ardennes legs. Rooks was transformed from Ardennes specialist to climber. By the way, has it been said Kelly got transfused? I'm waiting for concrete evidence.
Echoes
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Re: Re:

10 Sep 2017 11:45

fmk_RoI wrote:
GuyIncognito wrote:Let's take a guy who joined the team for those years. Kelly. Kelly wasn't really any better with PDM. So the blood bags don't seem to have done much for him.

Meanwhile, Rooks was clearly much better in 88 than previously....but not so in 89.
It's a mistake to believe a) that everyone offered blood accepted and b) everyone was offered.


But Rooks accepted we know that. We don't know if Kelly accepted, sure, but there's no way it wasn't offered to him.

Echoes wrote:
GuyIncognito wrote:Let's take a guy who joined the team for those years. Kelly. Kelly wasn't really any better with PDM. So the blood bags don't seem to have done much for him.

Meanwhile, Rooks was clearly much better in 88 than previously....but not so in 89.


Not really on both account. Kelly found back his old Ardennes legs. Rooks was transformed from Ardennes specialist to climber. By the way, has it been said Kelly got transfused? I'm waiting for concrete evidence.


Kelly hadn't stopped being good in the Ardennes, he was 5th the previous year. He won LBL that year because he went with an early attack that had all the strongest teams represented so the chase wasn't organized.

Rooks, like I said, was much better in 88 and not so in 89. He was not an "Ardennes specialist", he'd been top10 in the Tour
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10 Sep 2017 12:57

The whole interview can be read here (requires registration): https://blendle.com/i/de-volkskrant/bekentenis-van-een-dopingdokter/bnl-vkn-20170909-8621629. EDIT: This link doesn't require registration.

A few things: *Dr Janssen claims to have introduced blood transfusions at PDM after hearing the stories about Moser. He never claims to be the one to introduce them in the peloton. The blood bank charged him 1500 guilders per bag. He froze the blood of several riders, though he only identifies Rooks & Theunisse by name.

*Janssen did blood transfusions in '88 & '89 for PDM and in '90 for Panasonic. He then quit as team doctor for a while, before joining Foreldorado. It's at Foreldorado that he discovered EPO [this most likely happened in '96].

*Janssen introduced a zero-tolerance policy at Vacansoleil in '09. The UCI liked the idea so much that it was part of the reason why VCD got a licence that year. Janssen regularly tested the riders' blood, and also examined potential new recruits' blood values. He "caught" Clement L'hotellerie taking EPO, though Frenchman had already tested positive for MHAA at this point. The team made a deal with L'hotellerie that they wouldn't make the results of the internal controls public if he agreed to leave the team immediately. Janssen also stopped the team from signing Ruben Plaza as the rider was almost certainly on EPO. Team manager Daan Luijkx was annoyed at not being allowed to sign Plaza and Janssen ultimately decided to leave the team. One more potential recruit got a 'code red' after Janssen's departure: Ricardo Ricco, who ended up almost killing himself after a bad transfusion.
Last edited by El_ojo_del_Tigre on 10 Sep 2017 14:47, edited 3 times in total.
El_ojo_del_Tigre
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Re:

10 Sep 2017 13:29

El_ojo_del_Tigre wrote:The whole interview can be read here (requires registration): https://blendle.com/i/de-volkskrant/bekentenis-van-een-dopingdokter/bnl-vkn-20170909-8621629?
*Janssen introduced a zero-tolerance policy at Vacansoleil in '09. The UCI liked the idea so much that it was part of the reason why VCD got a licence that year. Janssen regularly tested the riders' blood, and also examined potential new recruits' blood values. He "caught" Clement L'hotellerie taking EPO, though Frenchman had already tested positive for MHAA at this point. The team made a deal with L'hotellerie that they wouldn't make the results of the internal controls public if he agreed to leave the team immediately.

Interesting stuff about Lhotellerie, thanks. Makes even funnier his 2015 statement after he had won the x-country French championship : when asked if people would finally forget about his 2009 positive for methylhexanamine, he answered "I hope so, it's not as if I'd been caught for EPO or testosterone". What.a.prick.

Image
Gregga
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10 Sep 2017 13:48

Janssen left Vacansoleil after they crossed a red line regarding the athlete's health when they juiced up Hoogerland for a potential top 10 at the Tour of Spain. The locomotive eventually finished 12th.

Ricco probably was badly advised by the Mapei center. Rumors back then said there was more going on than just him storing his own blood wrongly at his personal fridge behind the scenes.

That's what my memory tells.

Ricco and the locomotive remained pals. Probably already from their junior days!?

Ricco still owns his Vacansoleil Batavia. Rabobank asked Rasmussen to return his yellow Colnago, but he refused to do so!
Last edited by staubsauger on 10 Sep 2017 14:03, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar staubsauger
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Re: Re:

10 Sep 2017 14:03

Gregga wrote:
El_ojo_del_Tigre wrote:The whole interview can be read here (requires registration): https://blendle.com/i/de-volkskrant/bekentenis-van-een-dopingdokter/bnl-vkn-20170909-8621629?
*Janssen introduced a zero-tolerance policy at Vacansoleil in '09. The UCI liked the idea so much that it was part of the reason why VCD got a licence that year. Janssen regularly tested the riders' blood, and also examined potential new recruits' blood values. He "caught" Clement L'hotellerie taking EPO, though Frenchman had already tested positive for MHAA at this point. The team made a deal with L'hotellerie that they wouldn't make the results of the internal controls public if he agreed to leave the team immediately.

Interesting stuff about Lhotellerie, thanks. Makes even funnier his 2015 statement after he had won the x-country French championship : when asked if people would finally forget about his 2009 positive for methylhexanamine, he answered "I hope so, it's not as if I'd been caught for EPO or testosterone". What.a.prick.


:lol: What a prick indeed.

There's actually more about L'hotellerie in the interview. The doctor brings him up as an example of a rider the UCI decided to let go when they could've caught him taking EPO.

Janssen's story goes as follows:

Janssen was the team doctor at Skill Shimano in '07. When L'hotellerie joined that team, he told the doctor he was using EPO, testosterone, cortisone & possibly HGH too (Janssen isn't quite sure about that last one). Janssen tells L'hotellerie to knock it off.

The very next season Janssen, who has left Skill to join Vacansoleil by now, sees L'hotellerie win the mountain classification at Paris-Nice.

Immediately afterwards, Janssen's successor at Skill asks the doctor to take a look at L'hotellerie's blood values. Sure enough, the frenchman's obviously using EPO. So Janssen calls Zorzoli and tells him he'll catch L'hotellerie if he tests the rider the next day. The UCI does nothing.
Last edited by El_ojo_del_Tigre on 10 Sep 2017 14:49, edited 6 times in total.
El_ojo_del_Tigre
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10 Sep 2017 14:05

Interesting (to me) comment on reddit about this:
https://www.reddit.com/r/peloton/comments/6z11d9/confessions_of_a_doping_doctor_peter_janssen/

So as some of you probably know, I'm from the Netherlands. More specifically, I'm from Deurne, a small village no one's heard of apart from girls who are into horses (there's some sort of big horse training school there) and Dutch pro cyclists. The reason the pros know about Deurne is because of the GP who lived a few doors down from my parents: Dr Peter Janssen, blood doping pioneer and the Netherlands' biggest doping doctor.
I knew him as a GP, but when I started watching lots of cycling my dad pointed out to me that Dr Janssen used to be PDM's doping doctor. Even in the late 90s that was common knowledge. He told me this as a few of the Dutch cyclists we saw on TV on the weekend would show up on our street a few days later. I think it was around '99/'00 that I worked out that they would show up on Thursday evenings during the classics season (usually just one or two of them), and a lot of more them in the lead up to stage races.
He was an official team doctor, and he ran a sports clinic in local hospital, so I didn't think anything of it. I was still young and naive and believed doping was a stupid thing people used to do and I was way too excited to actually see these guys (mostly the Bankgiroloterij team at the time) in real life to put two and two together. It wasn't until a few years later, around the time he was at Vacansoleil and a few riders tested positive, that things really started to click.
It was pretty disillusioning to realise why all those riders I'd been excited about seeing had been just down the road. And just how often they'd been there - doping wasn't a one time mistake, as some riders were making out in their public apologies, it was a well planned programme.
What I didn't put together before (or didn't want to put together), is that I saw Leontien van Moorsel visit his surgery as well. She was my absolute hero at the time. I'd seen her win the world TT title in 1998 in Valkenburg and 4 Olympic medals in Sydney in 2000. So when I was out with my dad walking our dog in early 2001 (on a non-doping evening, so I didn't link her to Dr Janssen) and saw Leontien just walking down the street, I was very excited. I got to meet her very briefly and awkwardly before she and her husband got back into the car and drove off. I can remember the meeting very well as I thought it was awesome, and because my dad, who's a cycling fan as well, seemed weirdly cold to Leontien. I now get he was just a lot smarter than me.
She's had doping accusations hurled at her before, but I didn't want to believe she would dope ("it's different in women's cycling", "they don't even earn enough to afford to dope" etc). Unfortunately, I recognise way too many details in this article to doubt the man. So I'm starting this weekend with another fallen hero :(.
To end on a positive note: I feel a lot better about the time I was walking our dog and she had a bout of horribly smelly explosive diarrhoea all over Dr Janssen's front yard.
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Re:

10 Sep 2017 14:22



Paula Radcliffe says hello

"I feel a lot better about the time I was walking our dog and she had a bout of horribly smelly explosive diarrhoea all over Dr Janssen's front yard."

:D
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10 Sep 2017 14:45

The full article is available for free here (in dutch, doesn't require registration).
El_ojo_del_Tigre
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Re: Re:

10 Sep 2017 15:31

GuyIncognito wrote:
fmk_RoI wrote:
GuyIncognito wrote:Let's take a guy who joined the team for those years. Kelly. Kelly wasn't really any better with PDM. So the blood bags don't seem to have done much for him.

Meanwhile, Rooks was clearly much better in 88 than previously....but not so in 89.
It's a mistake to believe a) that everyone offered blood accepted and b) everyone was offered.


But Rooks accepted we know that. We don't know if Kelly accepted, sure, but there's no way it wasn't offered to him.
Agreed. I'm just trying to make a point about blood transfusions: they weren't like EPO and available to all (see the cost per bag Janssen quotes). So far, from the original Fok revelation, we only have three names for transfusions in PDM. Personally, I would assume that, if offered, Kelly would not refuse (he wasn't scared of needles and you have the whole Intralipid thing). Though he is the type who might balk at the cost.
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