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Norman Alvis - Master's Hour Recoed

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Re: Re:

09 Nov 2017 21:40

noddy69 wrote:I'm not ignoring them. The difference in equipment for speed has to be noted but I'm not buying that's all it is. Good detailed answer but doesn't really answer deteriation of stamina/power over a 20 year period into ones 50's. Just my opinion and if its wrong so be it, its just with cycling its usually the easy answer that's correct.

Yet you are ignoring the fact that the reduction in performance is right in line with published science on athlete's aerobic capacities as they age, even without considering improvements in equipment. Hence my earlier post:

viewtopic.php?p=2206690#p2206690
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Re: Re:

11 Nov 2017 08:16

Alex Simmons/RST wrote:
noddy69 wrote:I'm not ignoring them. The difference in equipment for speed has to be noted but I'm not buying that's all it is. Good detailed answer but doesn't really answer deteriation of stamina/power over a 20 year period into ones 50's. Just my opinion and if its wrong so be it, its just with cycling its usually the easy answer that's correct.

Yet you are ignoring the fact that the reduction in performance is right in line with published science on athlete's aerobic capacities as they age, even without considering improvements in equipment. Hence my earlier post:

viewtopic.php?p=2206690#p2206690

As I said could be wrong- but find it hard to believe Gustav Larson rides 50.016 and you still do over 49 no matter what the circumstances. Unfortunately that's where I'm at as a cycling fan. Think a few others on here probably feel the same- they just get a bit star struck when challenged.
Ultimately you know how you did it and my opinion doesn't count for records.
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Re: Re:

11 Nov 2017 10:40

noddy69 wrote:
Alex Simmons/RST wrote:
noddy69 wrote:I'm not ignoring them. The difference in equipment for speed has to be noted but I'm not buying that's all it is. Good detailed answer but doesn't really answer deteriation of stamina/power over a 20 year period into ones 50's. Just my opinion and if its wrong so be it, its just with cycling its usually the easy answer that's correct.

Yet you are ignoring the fact that the reduction in performance is right in line with published science on athlete's aerobic capacities as they age, even without considering improvements in equipment. Hence my earlier post:

viewtopic.php?p=2206690#p2206690

As I said could be wrong- but find it hard to believe Gustav Larson rides 50.016 and you still do over 49 no matter what the circumstances. Unfortunately that's where I'm at as a cycling fan. Think a few others on here probably feel the same- they just get a bit star struck when challenged.
Ultimately you know how you did it and my opinion doesn't count for records.

You do realise that the W/CdA demand for riding 49km at COS is nearly 20% lower than that required to do 50km at Manchester?
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Re: Re:

11 Nov 2017 11:51

Alex Simmons/RST wrote:
noddy69 wrote:
Alex Simmons/RST wrote:
noddy69 wrote:I'm not ignoring them. The difference in equipment for speed has to be noted but I'm not buying that's all it is. Good detailed answer but doesn't really answer deteriation of stamina/power over a 20 year period into ones 50's. Just my opinion and if its wrong so be it, its just with cycling its usually the easy answer that's correct.

Yet you are ignoring the fact that the reduction in performance is right in line with published science on athlete's aerobic capacities as they age, even without considering improvements in equipment. Hence my earlier post:

viewtopic.php?p=2206690#p2206690

As I said could be wrong- but find it hard to believe Gustav Larson rides 50.016 and you still do over 49 no matter what the circumstances. Unfortunately that's where I'm at as a cycling fan. Think a few others on here probably feel the same- they just get a bit star struck when challenged.
Ultimately you know how you did it and my opinion doesn't count for records.

You do realise that the W/CdA demand for riding 49km at COS is nearly 20% lower than that required to do 50km at Manchester?

Yep- No matter what the circumstances covers that part.
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Re: Re:

11 Nov 2017 15:49

noddy69 wrote:
Alex Simmons/RST wrote:
noddy69 wrote:
Alex Simmons/RST wrote:
noddy69 wrote:I'm not ignoring them. The difference in equipment for speed has to be noted but I'm not buying that's all it is. Good detailed answer but doesn't really answer deteriation of stamina/power over a 20 year period into ones 50's. Just my opinion and if its wrong so be it, its just with cycling its usually the easy answer that's correct.

Yet you are ignoring the fact that the reduction in performance is right in line with published science on athlete's aerobic capacities as they age, even without considering improvements in equipment. Hence my earlier post:

viewtopic.php?p=2206690#p2206690

As I said could be wrong- but find it hard to believe Gustav Larson rides 50.016 and you still do over 49 no matter what the circumstances. Unfortunately that's where I'm at as a cycling fan. Think a few others on here probably feel the same- they just get a bit star struck when challenged.
Ultimately you know how you did it and my opinion doesn't count for records.

You do realise that the W/CdA demand for riding 49km at COS is nearly 20% lower than that required to do 50km at Manchester?

Yep- No matter what the circumstances covers that part.


I think that Alex and I are wasting our time, but what the heck...

Here is some data from a one hour test run I did last December at Hellyer Velodrome in San Jose, CA. (Outdoor velodrome)

At the time the WR for my age group (55-59) was 47.773km. The US record was 45.019. I went 45.57km that day. Rob Van Houweling was there with his Kestrel weather station and laptop based timing system. I gave him my power data and he crunched the numbers. The results are in the spreadsheet below. Long story short all else being equal the models said that in Aguascalientes that ride would translate to 49.07 to 49.51 depending on the model. That is without acclimatization. When I went to Aguascalientes last July I ended up riding 49.121. All that to give you some real data to back up the model.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/2j2tha6jqe4u9ke/Speed_Power_SeaLevel_Altitude_Kevin.xls?dl=0

If Gustav Larson did his ride in CoS of Aguascalientes he would have gone a hell of a lot farther than 50km.

You are trying to compare apples to oranges.
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Re: Re:

11 Nov 2017 21:17

noddy69 wrote:Yep- No matter what the circumstances covers that part.

It clearly does not.

I get it, there is a trust deficit in sports. But just because someone has unsupported suspicions doesn't mean the sciences of physics and physiology are nonsense. You don't just get to hand wave such things away.

I've coached and assisted many hour rides and know that of those, three were masters who all did in the 48-48.5km range at sea level. They were all capable of 49.7-50.2km at Aguascalientes.

And to add to Kevin's data I also have data from another rider (I'll leave their name out of it as it's a disservice to have their name appear in a clinic thread) who had hour rides at both LA and Aguascalientes indoor tracks with similar form, and the increase in distance attained was also right in line with the model.
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12 Nov 2017 01:51

Of the dozen pro riders who have done the 'new' hour mark in the last couple years, only Decker went to Mexico. As Kevin stated, the cost of a record attempt there is less than half the cost of 1 of their road bikes! This fact makes the riders, support crews and pro teams involved seem very irrational. What is the reason for NOT going there?
Perhaps Alex could talk some sense into Dowsett, Wiggins, et al.

I kind of like Mexico.......
Last edited by UncleChainwhip on 12 Nov 2017 12:36, edited 1 time in total.
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Re:

12 Nov 2017 10:20

UncleChainwhip wrote:Of the dozen pro riders who have done the 'new' hour mark in the last couple years, only Decker went to Mexico. As Kevin stated, the cost of a record attempt there is less than half the cost of 1 of there road bikes! This fact makes the riders, support crews and pro teams involved seem very irrational. What is the reason for NOT going there?
Perhaps Alex could talk some sense into Dowsett, Wiggins, et al.

I kind of like Mexico.......

I can't speak for them but keep in mind you'd need several weeks to acclimate. And Wiggo sold out the velodrome in London in a matter of minutes, so there is the half a million bucks it brought in that would never happen at Aguascalietes. For other pros with team racing responsibility, being afforded the time to devote to preparation is mostly likely the main problem. It doesn't earn any UCI points.

Going to altitude is hardly novel. Merckx's hour record was set in Mexico City.
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Re: Norman Alvis - Master's Hour Record

15 Nov 2017 01:31

Mexico has fast tracks but they are NOT completely enclosed. I say go to CO Springs and bribe the HVAC techs as the tent has no windows and you got to have "some air circulation". Oh yeah, control the temperature and humidity too. Columbia and Ecuador also muy rapido. Hell, pull out all the stops and put the overlay flooring in the sprint lane and shower curtains in the curves (like Braun, Longo & Moser did}-----except this time in La Paz!
Would be glad to help. Sounds like Alex would too......
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Re: Norman Alvis - Master's Hour Record

15 Nov 2017 02:23

UncleChainwhip wrote:Mexico has fast tracks but they are NOT completely enclosed. I say go to CO Springs and bribe the HVAC techs as the tent has no windows and you got to have "some air circulation". Oh yeah, control the temperature and humidity too. Columbia and Ecuador also muy rapido. Hell, pull out all the stops and put the overlay flooring in the sprint lane and shower curtains in the curves (like Braun, Longo & Moser did}-----except this time in La Paz!
Would be glad to help. Sounds like Alex would too......


Looks pretty enclosed to me...

https://www.instagram.com/p/BWg6gAtA1Jf/
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15 Nov 2017 04:05

This is the CNAR track in Mexico City @ 2200m:

Image

Image

Image

http://www.fenamac.org/en/noticias/932-cdmx-velodromo-cnar
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Re:

15 Nov 2017 04:07

UncleChainwhip wrote:Of the dozen pro riders who have done the 'new' hour mark in the last couple yniears, only Decker went to Mexico. As Kevin stated, the cost of a record attempt there is less than half the cost of 1 of their road bikes! This fact makes the riders, support crews and pro teams involved seem very irrational. What is the reason for NOT going there?
Perhaps Alex could talk some sense into Dowsett, Wiggins, et al.

I kind of like Mexico.......


One caveat to the pricing is that our costs were spread out amongst I think 11 athletes. There are no UCI commasaires in Mexico so we had to fly in Randy Schaefer from Colorado. Mexican officials and anti doping traveled from Mexico City, etc. we had three days of record attempts. Generally a morning and then evening hour attempt when conditions were right. Then shorter attempts mid day when it was hot and fast. Chris Schmidt wanted $2500 for a turnkey hour record attempt including officials USADA. If a pro wanted to go to Aguascalientes alone for an attempt it would cost a lot more. Much cheaper to do it somewhere else. On the other hand, if you can get a group together it can be as cheap or chaper and faster.
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15 Nov 2017 04:42

Wow, what a teacup. Thanks for the nice pics. World Cup there must be special. No HVAC there though? Kevin mentions timing optimum rides for ambient outdoor temperatures. Circus tent at CO Springs not nearly as spacious, easier to control conditions. Does anyone remember the legend of the 'Moscow effect' of the indoor Russian velodrome? Was all the crying that Wiggins did about humidity and air pressure valid? If so, go to full lab-rat conditions in the CO Springs cocoon----airlock door in place, airtight seal on the rail perimeter and a janitor with a mop/pail full of Stan's sealant. May 2016 hour attempts there were advertised at $550 on their Records day!
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Re: Re:

15 Nov 2017 21:01

nslckevin wrote:
UncleChainwhip wrote:Of the dozen pro riders who have done the 'new' hour mark in the last couple yniears, only Decker went to Mexico. As Kevin stated, the cost of a record attempt there is less than half the cost of 1 of their road bikes! This fact makes the riders, support crews and pro teams involved seem very irrational. What is the reason for NOT going there?
Perhaps Alex could talk some sense into Dowsett, Wiggins, et al.

I kind of like Mexico.......


One caveat to the pricing is that our costs were spread out amongst I think 11 athletes. There are no UCI commasaires in Mexico so we had to fly in Randy Schaefer from Colorado. Mexican officials and anti doping traveled from Mexico City, etc. we had three days of record attempts. Generally a morning and then evening hour attempt when conditions were right. Then shorter attempts mid day when it was hot and fast. Chris Schmidt wanted $2500 for a turnkey hour record attempt including officials USADA. If a pro wanted to go to Aguascalientes alone for an attempt it would cost a lot more. Much cheaper to do it somewhere else. On the other hand, if you can get a group together it can be as cheap or chaper and faster.

In addition to this is the time and cost required for altitude adaptation.

Not everyone lives/trains at altitude, so to prepare correctly for it you need to also allow for several weeks away from home base, with all the extra costs that involves.

It's also a physiological risk in the sense that for those who are experiencing the greatest change in altitude from their home base, the initial week or so is likely to resulting in some detraining since intensity of effort will need to be dialled back.

It really helps to have had previous experience of the acclimation process to understand the individual's response to such an altitude and to develop a plan for the optimal duration of stay and training in the lead up to an attempt. So that means several weeks away and done at least twice, preferably more than twice.

Given the time investment alone to do it properly, that's why it's more something for retiring pros to consider than for someone in the middle of their racing career.
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Re:

15 Nov 2017 21:17

UncleChainwhip wrote:Wow, what a teacup. Thanks for the nice pics. World Cup there must be special. No HVAC there though? Kevin mentions timing optimum rides for ambient outdoor temperatures. Circus tent at CO Springs not nearly as spacious, easier to control conditions. Does anyone remember the legend of the 'Moscow effect' of the indoor Russian velodrome? Was all the crying that Wiggins did about humidity and air pressure valid? If so, go to full lab-rat conditions in the CO Springs cocoon----airlock door in place, airtight seal on the rail perimeter and a janitor with a mop/pail full of Stan's sealant. May 2016 hour attempts there were advertised at $550 on their Records day!


Air density, a function of barometric pressure, temperature and altitude (and only a very tiny bit humidity) has a significant impact on the speed attainable for a given power output.

In Wiggin's case, he did ride on a high barometric pressure day. A lower barometric pressure day could have seen another 500m added to his ride.

Many northern hemisphere tracks have temperature control but control of barometric pressure is unlikely.

I'm uncertain about the Moscow effect, other than as a 333.333 track it was very wide and tall giving sprinters a gravitational potential advantage compared with smaller tracks when setting their 200m flying TT qualification times. 9 of the 11 200m flying TT world records set since the 1980 Olympics were set at Moscow, although the current WR was set at Aguascalientes a few years ago.
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Re: Re:

15 Nov 2017 21:28

Alex Simmons/RST wrote:
nslckevin wrote:
UncleChainwhip wrote:Of the dozen pro riders who have done the 'new' hour mark in the last couple yniears, only Decker went to Mexico. As Kevin stated, the cost of a record attempt there is less than half the cost of 1 of their road bikes! This fact makes the riders, support crews and pro teams involved seem very irrational. What is the reason for NOT going there?
Perhaps Alex could talk some sense into Dowsett, Wiggins, et al.

I kind of like Mexico.......


One caveat to the pricing is that our costs were spread out amongst I think 11 athletes. There are no UCI commasaires in Mexico so we had to fly in Randy Schaefer from Colorado. Mexican officials and anti doping traveled from Mexico City, etc. we had three days of record attempts. Generally a morning and then evening hour attempt when conditions were right. Then shorter attempts mid day when it was hot and fast. Chris Schmidt wanted $2500 for a turnkey hour record attempt including officials USADA. If a pro wanted to go to Aguascalientes alone for an attempt it would cost a lot more. Much cheaper to do it somewhere else. On the other hand, if you can get a group together it can be as cheap or chaper and faster.

In addition to this is the time and cost required for altitude adaptation.

Not everyone lives/trains at altitude, so to prepare correctly for it you need to also allow for several weeks away from home base, with all the extra costs that involves.

It's also a physiological risk in the sense that for those who are experiencing the greatest change in altitude from their home base, the initial week or so is likely to resulting in some detraining since intensity of effort will need to be dialled back.

It really helps to have had previous experience of the acclimation process to understand the individual's response to such an altitude and to develop a plan for the optimal duration of stay and training in the lead up to an attempt. So that means several weeks away and done at least twice, preferably more than twice.

Given the time investment alone to do it properly, that's why it's more something for retiring pros to consider than for someone in the middle of their racing career.


For those of us without the time and/or resources to do an altitude camp to properly prepare, it's still significantly faster to just "show and go" at altitude than to do it at sea level. I'm sure I could have gone further if I had time to acclimatize. But I still went further than if I had gone to LA or some other sea level indoor track.

What is it that they say, "Don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good" ?

Kevin
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Re: Re:

15 Nov 2017 23:22

nslckevin wrote:For those of us without the time and/or resources to do an altitude camp to properly prepare, it's still significantly faster to just "show and go" at altitude than to do it at sea level. I'm sure I could have gone further if I had time to acclimatize. But I still went further than if I had gone to LA or some other sea level indoor track.

What is it that they say, "Don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good" ?

Kevin

Oh for sure (but you still need time to sort out your non-acclimated pacing). Provided you're not an idiot, you will go faster than at sea level.

However the problem emerges when having that acclimation period and prior experience is the difference between setting and not setting a record. There are sizeable individual differences in the response to altitude and also to acclimation. Hence having prior individual experience does help.
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17 Nov 2017 17:50

Couldn't renting a hyperbaric tent a couple of weeks in advance help in the acclimation involved?
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Re:

17 Nov 2017 19:42

GraftPunk wrote:Couldn't renting a hyperbaric tent a couple of weeks in advance help in the acclimation involved?

To some extent however you need to actually train in those conditions in order to best race in them. The tents are more about training low while sleeping high.
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