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All About Salbutamol

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What will the verdict in Froome's salbutamol case?

He will be cleared
29
28%
3 month ban
3
3%
6 month ban
14
13%
9 month ban
23
22%
1 year ban
14
13%
2 year ban
19
18%
4 year ban
2
2%
 
Total votes : 104

Re: Re:

11 Feb 2018 02:09

ClassicomanoLuigi wrote:"if you needed that much salbutamol [in order to ride nonstop for five hours over three categorized climbs, then drop noted climber Vincenzo Nibali by 21 seconds], you must have had a very severe attack!"


Which actually might be the answer to why someone would take salbutamol during a GT. One possibility is the evidence that it could aid recovery. But a better-documented effect is an increase in anaerobic power. When does a GT rider need anaerobic power? During an attack on a climb. To drop an elite climber like Nibs requires a severe attack. Salbutamol might indeed by used for severe attacks!
Merckx index
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11 Feb 2018 07:46

Servere attacks indeed - almost Landis like recovery after the previous day. But the question remains though, why take so much if, as race leader he knew he would get tested at the finish?

Edit - Froome getting a lighter sentence because of possible bias, might be enhanced by him riding this Summer and getting booed and covered in urine at every event. Just think of last years TdF ... "I'm the victim here!"
Salbutamol - Breakfast of Champions!
"Are you going to believe me or what you see with your own eyes?"
Choco Loco for all your doping tips!
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Re:

11 Feb 2018 08:43

Robert5091 wrote:Servere attacks indeed - almost Landis like recovery after the previous day. But the question remains though, why take so much if, as race leader he knew he would get tested at the finish?

Edit - Froome getting a lighter sentence because of possible bias, might be enhanced by him riding this Summer and getting booed and covered in urine at every event. Just think of last years TdF ... "I'm the victim here!"

The Cookson Jolly was still in play
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Re:

11 Feb 2018 11:05

Robert5091 wrote:Servere attacks indeed - almost Landis like recovery after the previous day. But the question remains though, why take so much if, as race leader he knew he would get tested at the finish?

Because they had a plan to beat the doping test and something went wrong!
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11 Feb 2018 12:12

Any subsequent case heard at CAS after a hearing at an Anti-Doping Tribunal is always a 'DE Novo' case which means a completely new trial - So in other words fresh evidence and tactics.
yaco
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Re: Re:

11 Feb 2018 13:50

Merckx index wrote: If he made that claim, I think the response might be, you must have taken a lot of extra puffs, and if you needed that much salbutamol, you must have had a very severe attack, why didn’t you use a nebulizer?



That's assuming they had one to hand though, are nebulizers regularly carried by teams ? How big / portable are they ?
bigcog
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Re: All About Salbutamol

11 Feb 2018 14:17

A new one from Walsh, apparently the kidneys “stores” Salbutamol after a taking antisbiotic :confused: or the kidneys stored the Salbutamol and the antibiotics caused the “dump” of Sal into the blood stream.

Firstly the kidney is a filter not a storage unit of the body. And this is new, why was Froome taking antibiotics? :cool:

Image
User avatar thehog
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Re: All About Salbutamol

11 Feb 2018 15:21

thehog wrote:A new one from Walsh, apparently the kidneys “stores” Salbutamol after a taking antisbiotic :confused: or the kidneys stored the Salbutamol and the antibiotics caused the “dump” of Sal into the blood stream.

Firstly the kidney is a filter not a storage unit of the body. And this is new, why was Froome taking antibiotics? :cool:

Image


this should be easily replicated in the lab then....

unless of course, it's just a red herring to help massage the Froome fans and keep them onside for his post-ban career and will never be tested by court/tribunal/panel...that's the usual SKY MO
gillan1969
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Re: Re:

11 Feb 2018 15:31

bigcog wrote

That's assuming they had one to hand though, are nebulizers regularly carried by teams ? How big / portable are they ?


Sir David said: 'I believe it is for loosening mucus, quite often the guys if they get a tight chest will use a nebuliser. It's a product we use in there.'

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4048564/Team-Sky-boss-Sir-David-Brailsford-FINALLY-reveals-medical-package-sent-treat-Bradley-Wiggins-telling-MPs-decongestant-fluimucil.html
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Re: All About Salbutamol

11 Feb 2018 16:10

thehog wrote:A new one from Walsh, apparently the kidneys “stores” Salbutamol after a taking antisbiotic :confused: or the kidneys stored the Salbutamol and the antibiotics caused the “dump” of Sal into the blood stream.

Firstly the kidney is a filter not a storage unit of the body. And this is new, why was Froome taking antibiotics? :cool:

Image


This is comedy gold. Froome's "crazy adaptive physiology" allows his kidneys to store different things like in this case salbutamol for a few days, maybe weeks, who knows? In order to store certain substances the kidneys have to "malfunction" but "not fully" because otherwise any human would be in hospital with his family praying for him. Then, at some point the kidneys decide to dump into his system a massive amount of salbutamol which Froome has been taking for days, maybe weeks, who knows? On top of it he needs antibiotics but not for the kidneys but for bronchitis. This is something Walsh forgot to mention but Matteo Tosatto did here, on Jan 8th:

http://tribunatreviso.gelocal.it/sport/2018/01/08/news/toso-in-ammiraglia-sky-apre-la-strada-a-froome-1.16328324

"In those days, he was not well. He had bronchitis and took antibiotics."
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Re: All About Salbutamol

11 Feb 2018 16:23

thehog wrote:A new one from Walsh, apparently the kidneys “stores” Salbutamol after a taking antisbiotic :confused: or the kidneys stored the Salbutamol and the antibiotics caused the “dump” of Sal into the blood stream.

Firstly the kidney is a filter not a storage unit of the body. And this is new, why was Froome taking antibiotics? :cool:

Image


got to love the sheer level of BS...."It has been said that he believes...." :lol:
gillan1969
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Re: All About Salbutamol

11 Feb 2018 16:29

gillan1969 wrote:
thehog wrote:A new one from Walsh, apparently the kidneys “stores” Salbutamol after a taking antisbiotic :confused: or the kidneys stored the Salbutamol and the antibiotics caused the “dump” of Sal into the blood stream.

Firstly the kidney is a filter not a storage unit of the body. And this is new, why was Froome taking antibiotics? :cool:

Image


got to love the sheer level of BS...."It has been said that he believes...." :lol:


I love how Walsh begins with “It has been said” like it’s some form of popular thinking that Salbutamol is stored for weeks on end in the kidneys, rather than Walsh just being a paid shill again :lol:
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Re: Re:

11 Feb 2018 16:35

bigcog wrote:
Merckx index wrote: If he made that claim, I think the response might be, you must have taken a lot of extra puffs, and if you needed that much salbutamol, you must have had a very severe attack, why didn’t you use a nebulizer?



That's assuming they had one to hand though, are nebulizers regularly carried by teams ? How big / portable are they ?

Very small and portable
User avatar veganrob
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11 Feb 2018 16:40

Antibiotics for infections that are 80 viral.

I guess that bit is common
Veni, Vidi, Kirby

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Red Rick
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11 Feb 2018 16:46

Hope Sky can find a record of the aforementioned antibiotics - After all record keeping is not their strongest suit.
yaco
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Re:

11 Feb 2018 21:16

yaco wrote:Any subsequent case heard at CAS after a hearing at an Anti-Doping Tribunal is always a 'DE Novo' case which means a completely new trial - So in other words fresh evidence and tactics.
Froome's defense can try something different on appeal to CAS, but UCI will have submitted the judgment and reasoning of Anti-Doping Tribunal to CAS, when and if those proceedings begin. So, for Froome's lawyers to contradict their original claims, would make them look more confused at CAS. Different approach to the same UCI evidence, except from a worse standing point, having already been found guilty.

CAS appeal would be more likely to get Froome's ban reduced in duration, than to clear him completely.
Also, depends whether Froome has already admitted responsibility on paper, or whether his defense has contended complete innocence. Maybe deny responsibility at Anti-Doping Tribunal (meaning he gets banned for two years), then admit it at CAS, in hopes of getting a reduced ban. Or 'double down' on a losing gamble, who knows...
ClassicomanoLuigi
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11 Feb 2018 23:31

Antibiotics? ... now we're getting somewhere. Let's float that one out there :)
(Remember Froome has that unique multiple tour winner physique)
Salbutamol - Breakfast of Champions!
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Choco Loco for all your doping tips!
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Re: All About Salbutamol

11 Feb 2018 23:49

I already discussed a possible defense based on use of antibiotics upthread, beginning two weeks ago. The first post linked below cites the key study, the second lays out the possible defense:

viewtopic.php?f=20&t=33768&p=2220840&hilit=antibiotics#p2220840
viewtopic.php?f=20&t=33768&p=2221744&hilit=antibiotics#p2221744

If I figured this out, I'm not surprised one of Froome's scientific advisors did. To repeat, a very recent study (in press) reported that many antibiotics can inhibit the same organic cation transporters (OCTs) used to excrete salbutamol:

http://sci-hub.la/10.1016/j.ejps.2018.01.002

Under these conditions, the kidneys don't store the salbutamol, it just remains in the circulation in higher concentrations than normally would be the case. If one stops taking the antibiotic, the inhibition would be relieved, and the higher levels in the blood would mean higher than normal levels excreted.

Since this research is so new, though, there presumably have been no studies directly demonstrating inhibition of salbutamol excretion. With the known data, one at best could make an estimate of the degree of inhibition of salbutamol excretion, and from there, how high the plasma level of the drug. It quickly gets very complicated, though, because as plasma levels of the drug rise, the salbutamol more effectively competes with the antibiotic for the transporter. IOW, I would expect a plateau in plasma salbutamol level. This would all be based on theory, unless they actually tried to reproduce it in the lab. If they did, they could probably publish the results, as it would be a novel research finding. Right after the passage quoted by thehog:

”That’s not something I’ve come across in the literature,” says Dr John Dickinson, head of the respiratory clinic at the University of Kent and the UK’s foremost expert on asthma in sport.


Of course, they would also have to provide evidence that Froome was taking the antibiotic prior to the AAF (not at the same time, as Walsh says), showing its use was correlated with lower levels of excreted salbutamol, and that the level spiked shortly after he stopped taking the antibiotic. He might be able to demonstrate levels of the antibiotic in the urine, though as I noted before, one of the most promising candidates, erythromycin, is mostly excreted by the liver. There is also the issue of why this has not occurred in the past with riders taking antibiotics.
Last edited by Merckx index on 12 Feb 2018 02:26, edited 4 times in total.
Merckx index
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12 Feb 2018 00:07

Rabin talks about this also

Is there specific knowledge of the factors that cause excretion (the action by which the body discharges a substance) to evolve from salbutamol?

I would be wary of considering all possible pharmacological, toxicological or physiological cases where there may be interference with the renal excretion of a substance or its metabolism. It is enough that you have taken another substance that goes through the same cytochrome P-450 [organic molecule involved in the biodegradation of exogenous molecules, including salbutamol] : it can have an effect on the excretion time. At the renal level, there may also be a substance that interferes with excretion. But we do not rely on assumptions. We want facts.
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Re:

12 Feb 2018 00:27

70kmph wrote:Rabin talks about this also

Is there specific knowledge of the factors that cause excretion (the action by which the body discharges a substance) to evolve from salbutamol?

I would be wary of considering all possible pharmacological, toxicological or physiological cases where there may be interference with the renal excretion of a substance or its metabolism. It is enough that you have taken another substance that goes through the same cytochrome P-450 [organic molecule involved in the biodegradation of exogenous molecules, including salbutamol] : it can have an effect on the excretion time. At the renal level, there may also be a substance that interferes with excretion. But we do not rely on assumptions. We want facts.


Facts? who needs facts when there is David Walsh?
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