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The Grey Area doping thread

The Clinic is the only place on Cyclingnews where you can discuss doping-related issues. Ask questions, discuss positives or improvements to procedures.

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Re:

23 Jun 2018 17:11

King Boonen wrote:Thanks. I don't know why it needed monitoring to be honest. There's already plenty of evidence that it activates PPAR-d, has been since 2010 and was fully assayed in 2014 (possibly earlier, this is the paper I know about). It might primarily be an ARB but there's more than enough for it to be covered under the regs for PPAR-d activators.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/20176998/

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/24352213/?i=4&from=/20176998/related


Cycle Telmisartan with Astaxanthin which is also legal. Astaxanthin is a PPAR-gamma antagonist (and PPAR-alpha agonist) you can get close to the effects of GW. Both here are boarding on gene doping. Well to be honest it is gene doping, as molecular structure is being changed in the human body. 5 days on, 2 days off with he best part being the huge gains are when you cycle off Telmisartan, thus never needing to declare it on your doping form.
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Re: Re:

23 Jun 2018 19:00

thehog wrote:Cycle Telmisartan with Astaxanthin which is also legal. Astaxanthin is a PPAR-gamma antagonist (and PPAR-alpha agonist) you can get close to the effects of GW. Both here are boarding on gene doping. Well to be honest it is gene doping, as molecular structure is being changed in the human body. 5 days on, 2 days off with he best part being the huge gains are when you cycle off Telmisartan, thus never needing to declare it on your doping form.


No, it's not gene doping. These substances are simply ligands, like other drugs, that bind to and activate specific kinds of receptors. You have to keep taking them. Gene doping is forever.

That said, very interesting stuff, hog. I guess anything that's legal can be classified as a marginal gain, with the margins quite extensive in this case.
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Re: Re:

23 Jun 2018 19:34

Merckx index wrote:
thehog wrote:Cycle Telmisartan with Astaxanthin which is also legal. Astaxanthin is a PPAR-gamma antagonist (and PPAR-alpha agonist) you can get close to the effects of GW. Both here are boarding on gene doping. Well to be honest it is gene doping, as molecular structure is being changed in the human body. 5 days on, 2 days off with he best part being the huge gains are when you cycle off Telmisartan, thus never needing to declare it on your doping form.


No, it's not gene doping. These substances are simply ligands, like other drugs, that bind to and activate specific kinds of receptors. You have to keep taking them. Gene doping is forever.

That said, very interesting stuff, hog. I guess anything that's legal can be classified as a marginal gain, with the margins quite extensive in this case.


I think WADA and UCI's code covers so called grey area PEDs, ie illegal. Taking anything to enhance performance is illegal. Just because UCI doesn't police the sport doesn't make it legal.
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Re: Re:

23 Jun 2018 20:39

Benotti69 wrote:
Merckx index wrote:
thehog wrote:Cycle Telmisartan with Astaxanthin which is also legal. Astaxanthin is a PPAR-gamma antagonist (and PPAR-alpha agonist) you can get close to the effects of GW. Both here are boarding on gene doping. Well to be honest it is gene doping, as molecular structure is being changed in the human body. 5 days on, 2 days off with he best part being the huge gains are when you cycle off Telmisartan, thus never needing to declare it on your doping form.


No, it's not gene doping. These substances are simply ligands, like other drugs, that bind to and activate specific kinds of receptors. You have to keep taking them. Gene doping is forever.

That said, very interesting stuff, hog. I guess anything that's legal can be classified as a marginal gain, with the margins quite extensive in this case.


I think WADA and UCI's code covers so called grey area PEDs, ie illegal. Taking anything to enhance performance is illegal. Just because UCI doesn't police the sport doesn't make it legal.


Actually, the WADA code doesn’t state that. If that were the case you could argue employing a dietician is doping.
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Re: Re:

23 Jun 2018 21:37

Merckx index wrote:
thehog wrote:Cycle Telmisartan with Astaxanthin which is also legal. Astaxanthin is a PPAR-gamma antagonist (and PPAR-alpha agonist) you can get close to the effects of GW. Both here are boarding on gene doping. Well to be honest it is gene doping, as molecular structure is being changed in the human body. 5 days on, 2 days off with he best part being the huge gains are when you cycle off Telmisartan, thus never needing to declare it on your doping form.


No, it's not gene doping. These substances are simply ligands, like other drugs, that bind to and activate specific kinds of receptors. You have to keep taking them. Gene doping is forever.

That said, very interesting stuff, hog. I guess anything that's legal can be classified as a marginal gain, with the margins quite extensive in this case.


I said “bordering on gene doping”. GW501516 most certainly is in that category.

GW501516 (also known as GW501, GW516, GW1516) belongs to family of drugs that act on the PPARD receptors and is an oral drug that is bioactive (has interaction with or effect on cell tissue) in humans.

PPARD is believed to work at the gene level and affects skeletal muscle metabolism. In one laboratory study, PPARD activation seemed to nearly double the performance of running endurance in untrained adult mice.
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23 Jun 2018 21:49

That’s not gene doping.
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Re:

23 Jun 2018 22:27

King Boonen wrote:That’s not gene doping.


Yeah. I know. I keep saying that it’s bordering on gene doping as the molecular structure is changing. Give it another name as it’s beyond regular pharma doping.
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23 Jun 2018 22:39

No, it’s just like many forms of regular doping. It’s a ligand that binds to a nuclear receptor. An example of another such ligand would be cortisol.
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Re: The Grey Area doping thread

29 Jun 2018 15:46

Oh and most importantly :cool:

The World Anti-Doping Agency (WADA) have published the 2018 list of prohibited substances, with a number of minor changes being announced.

Approved by the WADA Executive Committee at their meeting in Paris last Sunday (September 24), the list designates what substances and methods are prohibited both in and out-of-competition.

Alcohol has been removed from the prohibited list, with the substance having previously been banned in four sports.
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Re: Re:

30 Jun 2018 06:57

King Boonen wrote:
Benotti69 wrote:
Merckx index wrote:
thehog wrote:Cycle Telmisartan with Astaxanthin which is also legal. Astaxanthin is a PPAR-gamma antagonist (and PPAR-alpha agonist) you can get close to the effects of GW. Both here are boarding on gene doping. Well to be honest it is gene doping, as molecular structure is being changed in the human body. 5 days on, 2 days off with he best part being the huge gains are when you cycle off Telmisartan, thus never needing to declare it on your doping form.


No, it's not gene doping. These substances are simply ligands, like other drugs, that bind to and activate specific kinds of receptors. You have to keep taking them. Gene doping is forever.

That said, very interesting stuff, hog. I guess anything that's legal can be classified as a marginal gain, with the margins quite extensive in this case.


I think WADA and UCI's code covers so called grey area PEDs, ie illegal. Taking anything to enhance performance is illegal. Just because UCI doesn't police the sport doesn't make it legal.


Actually, the WADA code doesn’t state that. If that were the case you could argue employing a dietician is doping.


Benotti is correct. Class S0 is basically WADAs catch all class.There are no grey area substances really.

S0 Non-Approved Substances
Any pharmacological substance which is not
addressed by any of the subsequent sections of the
List and with no current approval by any governmental
regulatory health authority for human therapeutic use
(e.g. drugs under pre-clinical or clinical development
or discontinued, designer drugs, substances approved
only for veterinary use) is prohibited at all times.
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Re: Re:

30 Jun 2018 10:21

samhocking wrote:
King Boonen wrote:
Benotti69 wrote:
Merckx index wrote:
thehog wrote:Cycle Telmisartan with Astaxanthin which is also legal. Astaxanthin is a PPAR-gamma antagonist (and PPAR-alpha agonist) you can get close to the effects of GW. Both here are boarding on gene doping. Well to be honest it is gene doping, as molecular structure is being changed in the human body. 5 days on, 2 days off with he best part being the huge gains are when you cycle off Telmisartan, thus never needing to declare it on your doping form.


No, it's not gene doping. These substances are simply ligands, like other drugs, that bind to and activate specific kinds of receptors. You have to keep taking them. Gene doping is forever.

That said, very interesting stuff, hog. I guess anything that's legal can be classified as a marginal gain, with the margins quite extensive in this case.


I think WADA and UCI's code covers so called grey area PEDs, ie illegal. Taking anything to enhance performance is illegal. Just because UCI doesn't police the sport doesn't make it legal.


Actually, the WADA code doesn’t state that. If that were the case you could argue employing a dietician is doping.


Benotti is correct. Class S0 is basically WADAs catch all class.There are no grey area substances really.

S0 Non-Approved Substances
Any pharmacological substance which is not
addressed by any of the subsequent sections of the
List and with no current approval by any governmental
regulatory health authority for human therapeutic use
(e.g. drugs under pre-clinical or clinical development
or discontinued, designer drugs, substances approved
only for veterinary use) is prohibited at all times.


That's possibly the most clueless thing I've seen posted while actually quoting the WADA code/prohibited list. I mean, it literally says non-approved substances and then defines them.
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30 Jun 2018 11:27

WADA do not approve substances. Class 0 simply defines everything else as illegal at all times. There are no non-approved substances you can use legally basically.
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30 Jun 2018 11:50

And yet it continues...
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Re: Re:

30 Jun 2018 13:45

samhocking wrote:Benotti is correct. Class S0 is basically WADAs catch all class.There are no grey area substances really.

S0 Non-Approved Substances
Any pharmacological substance which is not
addressed by any of the subsequent sections of the
List and with no current approval by any governmental
regulatory health authority for human therapeutic use
(e.g. drugs under pre-clinical or clinical development
or discontinued, designer drugs, substances approved
only for veterinary use)
is prohibited at all times.
I'm a bit slow today Sam, so could you explain the bolded part in simple English and whether that includes Tramadol? TIA.
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30 Jun 2018 13:55

Tramadol is approved and not prohibited so it isn't a Class S0 Substance.
As for the bolded part, it's simply listing all types of non-approved substances as prohibited at all times.
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30 Jun 2018 14:28

We’re slowly getting there... so if people take tramadol to improve their performance, will they get banned..? And does Wikipedia need a reference for straw man..?
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Re:

30 Jun 2018 14:34

samhocking wrote:Tramadol is approved and not prohibited so it isn't a Class S0 Substance.
As for the bolded part, it's simply listing all types of non-approved substances as prohibited at all times.
(And I thought I had my slow head on today...)

So Tramadol is not so called 'grey area doping' then, is that correct?

Ditto OOC use of corticos?

Basically, you and Benny are of the view that doping is only what's declared as doping by the List, with the List having a catch all category that covers everything not otherwise covered?

(That's such a head wreck I'm maybe actually glad to have my slow head on, otherwise that logic loop might shortcircuit me.)

Why do new substances have to be added to the List? Surely each review should now be only about unbanning things banned?

(Maybe everyone in WADA also has their slow head on and so can't see how wrong they are. Or, maybe they realise their error but are just digging a deeper hole, hoping people will then stop asking silly questions.)
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30 Jun 2018 14:34

That's not how anti-doping works. If only lol!

You're confusing the grey area of rules and ethics with black and white area of substance classes. The two are not related. Doping is a legal matter, not only what is in your body.
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Re:

30 Jun 2018 14:42

samhocking wrote:That's not how anti-doping works. If only lol!

You're confusing the grey area of rules with substances. The two are not related. Doping is a legal matter, not what is in your body.

I was answering a specific point from Benotti. You jumped in with some strawman discussion about non-approved substances which were never mentioned by Benotti. I really don’t see why this is so difficult... anyone would think it is purposeful...
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30 Jun 2018 14:50

Benottie clearly states "I think WADA and UCI's code covers so called grey area PEDs, ie illegal. Taking anything to enhance performance is illegal."

The part of the code that covers the grey area is S0. Taking anything that's classed black and white by WADA is considered performance enhancing and illegal like Benotti says (within Classes S1-S5). Tramadol is not a grey area substance because WADA haven't placed Tramadol within any class yet have they, they are monitoring its use. Doping is a legal matter. Ethically, perhaps it should be classed yesterday, but ethics don't decide what is illegal or what is doping and rules decide where the grey area is not the substance.
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