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The Grey Area doping thread

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30 Jun 2018 14:55

Again, S0 covers non-approved substances, not anything. This is really, really simple English. If Benotti wants to re-define their wording that’s fine, it’s not up to another poster.
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30 Jun 2018 14:58

S0 covers anything not in S1-S5. It's simple to understand. Tramadol is not within any class, it's not a grey area until it's placed within a class and then the rules surrounding its permitted use can make it a grey area.
Last edited by samhocking on 30 Jun 2018 15:02, edited 1 time in total.
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Re:

30 Jun 2018 15:00

samhocking wrote:S0 covers anything not in S1-S5. It's simple to understand. Tramadol is not within any class, it's not a grey area until it's placed within a class and then the rules surround its use make it a grey area.


This is getting even sillier...
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Re:

30 Jun 2018 15:06

samhocking wrote:S0 covers anything not in S1-S5. It's simple to understand. Tramadol is not within any class, it's not a grey area until it's placed within a class and then the rules surrounding its permitted use can make it a grey area.
Sam enough already. S0 covers drugs in development or other drugs not authorised for human use. It has nothing to do with what you are claiming it means.
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30 Jun 2018 15:08

It's not silly, it's crystal clear. Tramadol in terms of anti-doping is not a grey area. It is not placed within S0-S5 all times. It is monitored just like Codeine & Hydrocodone are and would end up in S7 in compeition if prohibited.

The only grey area in anti-doping is within the WADA rules allowing prohibited substances to be used and within S0 class because substances in S0 are not necessarily detectable.
Last edited by samhocking on 30 Jun 2018 15:14, edited 1 time in total.
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30 Jun 2018 15:13

I kind of want this to continue, just out of morbid fascination...
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Re:

30 Jun 2018 15:15

King Boonen wrote:I kind of want this to continue, just out of morbid fascination...


Fine by me. Name one legal reason Tramadol can't be used within competition according to the rules without using ethical reason to make it a grey area.
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Re: Re:

30 Jun 2018 15:19

samhocking wrote:
King Boonen wrote:I kind of want this to continue, just out of morbid fascination...


Fine by me. Name one legal reason Tramadol can't be used within competition according to the rules without using ethical reason.


That’s it, I’m buying JCB stock.
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30 Jun 2018 15:29

Do I take that Tramadol isn't a grey doping area then compared to say faking an ankle injury for TUE Corticosteroids otherwise banned or using a banned substance in S0 you know WADA do not know about and can't detect so you are legally protected just like the TUE protects you legally?
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Re:

30 Jun 2018 15:37

samhocking wrote:
The only grey area in anti-doping is within the WADA rules allowing prohibited substances to be used and within S0 class because substances in S0 are not necessarily detectable.


This point is interesting, because NFL player Julian Edelman just got sanctioned, and his defense is that the NFL doesn't even know what the substance he was caught with is. They can't identify it. What they presumably can do, though, is claim it's non-approved.

Don't want to sidetrack the, ahem, discussion about tramadol, but thought this ought to be pointed out.
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30 Jun 2018 15:38

Is the plural of strawmen a bale of strawmen?
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Re: Re:

30 Jun 2018 15:40

Merckx index wrote:
samhocking wrote:
The only grey area in anti-doping is within the WADA rules allowing prohibited substances to be used and within S0 class because substances in S0 are not necessarily detectable.


This point is interesting, because NFL player Julian Edelman just got sanctioned, and his defense is that the NFL doesn't even know what the substance he was caught with is. They can't identify it. What they presumably can do, though, is claim it's non-approved.

Don't want to sidetrack the, ahem, discussion about tramadol, but thought this ought to be pointed out.


Are the NFL signatories to the WADA code? It’s be good to get back to a relevant discussion. Any info on the case?
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Re:

30 Jun 2018 15:48

King Boonen wrote:I kind of want this to continue, just out of morbid fascination...
+1
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Re: Re:

30 Jun 2018 15:50

samhocking wrote:
King Boonen wrote:I kind of want this to continue, just out of morbid fascination...


Fine by me. Name one legal reason Tramadol can't be used within competition according to the rules without using ethical reason to make it a grey area.
Do you actually understand the meaning of grey, as in, not black and white?
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Re:

30 Jun 2018 15:54

samhocking wrote:Do I take that Tramadol isn't a grey doping area then compared to say faking an ankle injury for TUE Corticosteroids otherwise banned or using a banned substance in S0 you know WADA do not know about and can't detect so you are legally protected just like the TUE protects you legally?
Ok seriously, STOP! S0 does not cover faking a TUE. It covers drugs in development or drugs not otherwise approved by government agencies for human use. You quoted it, we can all see that's what it says, stop pretending it says something else.
Last edited by fmk_RoI on 30 Jun 2018 15:55, edited 1 time in total.
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30 Jun 2018 15:54

Boonen, you have to view it in terms of the lab. The lab identifies classes of substances within each method of blood/urine analysis. Now, they can find e.g. Corticosteroids in two samples. The sample with a TUE is legally free. The sample without the TUE faces an AAF. Two riders with equal evidence of Corticosteroids sees a grey area one walks free due to the rules surrounding TUEs exempting them regardless of ethics.

The lab looking for S0 substances is the same thing. The lab is looking for classes of substances using each method of analysis. They might not find the substance because they can't detect it. The reason the athlete is using an S0 substance is because they know they can't possibly face an AAF for something nobody in WADA knows about or the lab can't detect or is looking for, just like the holder of the TUE will know his AAF won't occur either. They are both exempt in the grey area from an otherwise probable ADRV result despite both using what is essentially a prohibited substance in class S0 to S5 or even up to S7. That is the grey doping area. Tramadol is actually very black and white.
Last edited by samhocking on 30 Jun 2018 16:00, edited 1 time in total.
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Re:

30 Jun 2018 15:59

samhocking wrote:Boonen, you have to view it in terms of the lab. The lab identifies classes of substances within each method of blood/urine analysis. Now, they can find e.g. Corticosteroids in two samples. The sample with a TUE is legally free. The sample without the TUE faces an AAF. Two riders with equal evidence of Corticosteroids sees a grey area one walks free due to the rules surround TUEs.,
No, the one taken OOC is not an AAF. The one with a TUE is an AAF but not an ADRV. This is AD101.
samhocking wrote:The lab looking for S0 substances is the same thing. The lab is looking for classes of substances using each method of analysis. They might not find the substance because they can't detect it. The reason the athlete is using an S0 substance is because they know they can't possible face an AAF for sometihng nobody in WADA knows about or the lab can't detect or is looking for just like the holder of the TUE can't either. They are both exempt from a possible ADRV despite using what is essentially a prohibited substance in class S0 to S5 or even S7. That is the grey area. Tramadol is actually very black and white.
There is more to AD than lab work.
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30 Jun 2018 16:01

This is a veritable harvest of Strawmen now.
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30 Jun 2018 16:06

But still the grey area fmk. Tramadol isn't a grey area in any legal shape or form unlike S0 and TUE and Salbutomol.
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Re:

30 Jun 2018 16:36

samhocking wrote:But still the grey area fmk. Tramadol isn't a grey area in any legal shape or form unlike S0 and TUE and Salbutomol.
You really haven't got a clue what grey area actually means, do you? Or is it that you hope to confuse everyone else?
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