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QS 2018

The Clinic is the only place on Cyclingnews where you can discuss doping-related issues. Ask questions, discuss positives or improvements to procedures.

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Re: Re:

25 Apr 2018 14:53

Blanco wrote:
Scott SoCal wrote:
vedrafjord wrote:As I said two weeks ago, they don't look stronger or weaker as individual riders than last year or the year before. They seem to have mostly stopped making tactical howlers as they did when Boonen was the romantic ageing favourite, a good sprinter who wanted to solo from way out for the glory, and Stijn Vandenbergh ended up in all the crucial moves without being strong or smart enough to win from them.

They have a load of guys who can go from far out (and a few with a jump) so they can deploy one after the other and see what sticks (even though they got caught out at Roubaix because they believed their own hype).

None of this means they aren't doped to the gills, but it's much harder to call it out in the classics than, say, a leg press up the Angliru or Zoncolan.


+1

Take Flanders for example, anybody notice how competitive Nibali was? Dude was attacking in the final. Also, their formula is pretty predictable: have 3 or 4 in the final, send the best TT guy up the road with 50kms left and patrol the chase group with guys who can finish.

Again, they could be doped... but it’s an incredibly strong team who race selflessly. They bought in to the concept of “team wins” and they are better without a marginal Boonen.

Also, wrt LBL, I just find it hard to believe guys like Mike Woods are on the program. He was pretty competitive and I’s like to think that’s a bit of a benchmark. Of course I could be wrong.


Why?


He's only been on the scene for a couple of years. He's not a starstruck teenager willing to do anything. He's 31 and should by now know better. He didn't grow up in a doping culture unless middle distance running is rife with PEDS... (no idea, don't follow the sport). His performance along with Valverde might give a slight hint to the doping being contained to a much more narrow scope. Of course it's a one day race so it's a bit harder to say and it's pure speculation on my part.

And I'm perfectly willing to be dead wrong.
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25 Apr 2018 15:27

Pascal Hervé only arrived a few years before the Festina scandal. He was not a starstruck teenager, he was 29 when he turned pro and he absolutely "knew better": he knew that PEDs worked, that they were widespread and that it was very hard to get busted using them if you were careful. He became one of the most notorious heavy dopers in the 90s.
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Re:

25 Apr 2018 15:43

hrotha wrote:Pascal Hervé only arrived a few years before the Festina scandal. He was not a starstruck teenager, he was 29 when he turned pro and he absolutely "knew better": he knew that PEDs worked, that they were widespread and that it was very hard to get busted using them if you were careful. He became one of the most notorious heavy dopers in the 90s.


Good example.

You think Woods is on the progamme? Just better Sunday than Valverde? Are you comparing the dope practices of the 90's to now? How about Nibali's ride at Flanders? Poggio/San Remo? Good programme? How about Dillier's ride at Roubaix? getting in a couple of moves that didn't work, then getting in the one that did, rides in the day's break and still hangs on to Sagan to make it a close finish. All down to programme?

Maybe it's still as dirty as ever but it doesn't look the same as it was in the 1990's.
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25 Apr 2018 15:55

But it doesn't look much different to a decade ago. And just like then, even when it's rife with dope, it's obviously not just down to programme.

I'm sure there's plenty of clean pros out there, but I doubt any of them can sprint up hills like Woods did in the Vuelta. That was insane.
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Re: Re:

25 Apr 2018 16:35

Scott SoCal wrote:
Blanco wrote:
Scott SoCal wrote:
vedrafjord wrote:As I said two weeks ago, they don't look stronger or weaker as individual riders than last year or the year before. They seem to have mostly stopped making tactical howlers as they did when Boonen was the romantic ageing favourite, a good sprinter who wanted to solo from way out for the glory, and Stijn Vandenbergh ended up in all the crucial moves without being strong or smart enough to win from them.

They have a load of guys who can go from far out (and a few with a jump) so they can deploy one after the other and see what sticks (even though they got caught out at Roubaix because they believed their own hype).

None of this means they aren't doped to the gills, but it's much harder to call it out in the classics than, say, a leg press up the Angliru or Zoncolan.


+1

Take Flanders for example, anybody notice how competitive Nibali was? Dude was attacking in the final. Also, their formula is pretty predictable: have 3 or 4 in the final, send the best TT guy up the road with 50kms left and patrol the chase group with guys who can finish.

Again, they could be doped... but it’s an incredibly strong team who race selflessly. They bought in to the concept of “team wins” and they are better without a marginal Boonen.

Also, wrt LBL, I just find it hard to believe guys like Mike Woods are on the program. He was pretty competitive and I’s like to think that’s a bit of a benchmark. Of course I could be wrong.


Why?


He's only been on the scene for a couple of years. He's not a starstruck teenager willing to do anything. He's 31 and should by now know better. He didn't grow up in a doping culture unless middle distance running is rife with PEDS... (no idea, don't follow the sport). His performance along with Valverde might give a slight hint to the doping being contained to a much more narrow scope. Of course it's a one day race so it's a bit harder to say and it's pure speculation on my part.

And I'm perfectly willing to be dead wrong.


I could easily go with counter arguments: Middle distance running is full of PED's (like all of athletics), he's not a teenager anymore so he needs results, he rides for a certain Jonathan Vaughters (who's dodgy as hell), he's never been this strong, etc...
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Re: Re:

25 Apr 2018 17:19

Scott SoCal wrote:
hrotha wrote:Pascal Hervé only arrived a few years before the Festina scandal. He was not a starstruck teenager, he was 29 when he turned pro and he absolutely "knew better": he knew that PEDs worked, that they were widespread and that it was very hard to get busted using them if you were careful. He became one of the most notorious heavy dopers in the 90s.


Good example.

You think Woods is on the progamme? Just better Sunday than Valverde? Are you comparing the dope practices of the 90's to now? How about Nibali's ride at Flanders? Poggio/San Remo? Good programme? How about Dillier's ride at Roubaix? getting in a couple of moves that didn't work, then getting in the one that did, rides in the day's break and still hangs on to Sagan to make it a close finish. All down to programme?

Maybe it's still as dirty as ever but it doesn't look the same as it was in the 1990's.

I have no particular opinion on Woods personally being on a program - while I do think he probably is, that's more because of my general opinion on the state of the sport than because of anything pertaining to Woods in particular. And no, I don't think whatever program he might be on would be similar to what Hervé was on, nor do I believe that dope is the only factor, as indeed it wasn't even in the mid 90s. However, I do not think "he would know better" has any merit. For the vast majority of riders, doping is not a mistake. It works and generally has limited drawbacks. "Knowing better" won't make anyone stay clean.
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Re: Re:

25 Apr 2018 18:39

hrotha wrote:
Scott SoCal wrote:
hrotha wrote:Pascal Hervé only arrived a few years before the Festina scandal. He was not a starstruck teenager, he was 29 when he turned pro and he absolutely "knew better": he knew that PEDs worked, that they were widespread and that it was very hard to get busted using them if you were careful. He became one of the most notorious heavy dopers in the 90s.


Good example.

You think Woods is on the progamme? Just better Sunday than Valverde? Are you comparing the dope practices of the 90's to now? How about Nibali's ride at Flanders? Poggio/San Remo? Good programme? How about Dillier's ride at Roubaix? getting in a couple of moves that didn't work, then getting in the one that did, rides in the day's break and still hangs on to Sagan to make it a close finish. All down to programme?

Maybe it's still as dirty as ever but it doesn't look the same as it was in the 1990's.

I have no particular opinion on Woods personally being on a program - while I do think he probably is, that's more because of my general opinion on the state of the sport than because of anything pertaining to Woods in particular. And no, I don't think whatever program he might be on would be similar to what Hervé was on, nor do I believe that dope is the only factor, as indeed it wasn't even in the mid 90s. However, I do not think "he would know better" has any merit. For the vast majority of riders, doping is not a mistake. It works and generally has limited drawbacks. "Knowing better" won't make anyone stay clean.


I get your point. Probably naive on my part to hope it's different. That said, unless you believe or know everybody dopes, "knowing better" is the only thing that keeps the clean ones clean.
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25 Apr 2018 19:24

There's a difference between "knowing better" than to dope, and "knowing better" than to be transparently obvious about it, which may be the kicker. Vaughters has had a knack of getting good late blooming performances out of people you mightn't expect it from - Hesjedal, Vande Velde, Wiggins, and so on. But although he's inadvertently outed his own riders before, and he's had riders test positive while riding for him including those who were supposedly committed to his clean riding team vision (the whole thing being about redemption for all of those ex-USPS guys and so on, which was the narrative the team built themselves around), Jonathan Vaughters does know better. There is no real obvious evidence out there that Michael Woods is any more or less suspicious than anybody else around there; quite often late bloomers at a variety of success levels come from other sporting endeavours - Richie Porte from triathlon, Primož Roglič from ski jumping, Maria Canins and Tara Whitten from cross country skiing, Benjamí Prades from biathlon - so his emergence at a comparatively late age isn't so much of a red flag since he has moved across from another endurance-based discipline (unlike Rogla, who comes from a discipline more about explosiveness), although as noted athletics is one of the sports with a reputation as negative as that of cycling. Vaughters has had those things happen that suggest all may not always be sanguine at Slipstream Sports (insert name of whichever team he's managed to successfully cannibalize to keep the team going here - how he manages to be the man in charge of a team that needs to seek out a merger so often and successfully manages to convince another team to merge with him AND let him keep the reins is testament to his negotiation skills), but because he knows better, he doesn't have seven guys all going on absurd mountain breakaways like CSF-Navigare (remember the Fedaia stage with 3 CSF guys in the group of 5?). Because he knows better, he doesn't have Mustafa Sayar forgetting to hide the needle marks. Because he knows better, he doesn't have Ricardo Riccò passing out after trying to self-transfuse at home.

The thing is, nothing Michael Woods does is implausible; he has shown himself to be a quick learner in road cycling and very good in short-to-mid-length steep ascents, of precisely the kind that the Ardennes and the Vuelta specialise in. He was good from the get-go at the WT level in that kind of race and as he's got smarter he's improved his results in the type of races that he is good at. There aren't any real red flags that would suggest he's a doper, but he's competitive enough in an era where trust in the sport is massively eroded that he's sticking his head above the parapet.
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25 Apr 2018 21:19

Woods got a 50G yearly donation to further his career on the premise he was clean.

What helped the donors decide to support a cyclist (with the known doping issues in the sport) was him riding for J.V. who they thought was running a tight/clean outfit.

Woods said of the financial differences between WT teams that he felt sometimes they were bringing spoons to a knife fight.

We've seen Vaughters complain several times as well on this.

So how is it Vaughters can #produce late bloomers?

I really dont know, but if it's all him being a cycling genius then chapeau indeed.

I just can't see how it isnt just a matter of a universal peloton acceptance that everything within the limits is not doping.
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Re:

26 Apr 2018 01:04

King Boonen wrote:Bob Jungels is 25 and rides for possibly what is consistently the best classic team of the last few generations. Before he rode for QS he was at Trek with guys like Devolder and Cancellara above him. Expecting to find performances exactly indicative of his ability is tough, considering he's obviously played a supporting role for his whole career so far when he has raced the big one-day races.

I seem to remember him doing a lot of work on the front of the group Valverde won his Giro stage from in 2016 and we shouldn't forget that he has twice won the young rider classification in the Giro, beating Adam Yates and Davide Formolo last year, two men who have been championed as future monument winners. Yes, Jungels is massive in the TT, but you don't do well in the Giro on TT ability alone.

Doesn't mean he isn't doping, but I do think a decent result was expected from him.


I definitely haven't forgotten those things. My point was that in that Giro he climbed really well - but in exactly the way you would expect a big rider with a (first class) diesel engine to climb. i.e. ride tempo, limit losses against the pure climbers, don't go with sharp accelerations etc. He was great at that, and that's how he got a top ten and white jersey.

The display in LBL was something very different: explosive power late in the race, on a climb that averages 11%, that was severe enough to put almost everyone (and we're talking serious climbing pedigree here) in trouble.

Whatever the case may be, that's definitely a new thing we all witnessed from Jungels.

As far as Woods goes - who's to say how clean/unclean he is, but him riding well in the Ardennes shows nothing new at all. It's exactly his terrain, he's exactly the kind of rider I would expect to be up there on 11% climbs.
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Re: Re:

26 Apr 2018 09:38

The Hegelian wrote:
King Boonen wrote:Bob Jungels is 25 and rides for possibly what is consistently the best classic team of the last few generations. Before he rode for QS he was at Trek with guys like Devolder and Cancellara above him. Expecting to find performances exactly indicative of his ability is tough, considering he's obviously played a supporting role for his whole career so far when he has raced the big one-day races.

I seem to remember him doing a lot of work on the front of the group Valverde won his Giro stage from in 2016 and we shouldn't forget that he has twice won the young rider classification in the Giro, beating Adam Yates and Davide Formolo last year, two men who have been championed as future monument winners. Yes, Jungels is massive in the TT, but you don't do well in the Giro on TT ability alone.

Doesn't mean he isn't doping, but I do think a decent result was expected from him.


I definitely haven't forgotten those things. My point was that in that Giro he climbed really well - but in exactly the way you would expect a big rider with a (first class) diesel engine to climb. i.e. ride tempo, limit losses against the pure climbers, don't go with sharp accelerations etc. He was great at that, and that's how he got a top ten and white jersey.

The display in LBL was something very different: explosive power late in the race, on a climb that averages 11%, that was severe enough to put almost everyone (and we're talking serious climbing pedigree here) in trouble.

Whatever the case may be, that's definitely a new thing we all witnessed from Jungels.

As far as Woods goes - who's to say how clean/unclean he is, but him riding well in the Ardennes shows nothing new at all. It's exactly his terrain, he's exactly the kind of rider I would expect to be up there on 11% climbs.



This is where we differ then. He got nearly all of his gap on the descent and the flat. They're back together when they start descending Roche aux Faucons, Jungels goes and they just watch him. There was no co-operation, I think Dan Martin and Wellens were the most active chasers, And Ala just shut them down and killed it. Jungels lost nearly 30 seconds on Saint Nicolas, they just gave him too much time on a bunch that didn't want to work together.

It was a TT effort, a couple of minutes of pain followed by a TT effort from a massive TTer who had been anonymous all day. The reduced bunch didn't want to chase, probably because they thought he wouldn't make it, but that, combined with the few attacks that were made being chased down by other favourites (except Vanendert who again they probably felt wouldn't make it, and didn't) meant a seriously talented TTer got a big enough gap to win.


It's a brilliant performance, but from a 25 year old with his palmares, on that team in a race with those tactics I really don't think this performance makes him any more suspicious.
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Re: Re:

26 Apr 2018 10:14

King Boonen wrote:
The Hegelian wrote:
King Boonen wrote:Bob Jungels is 25 and rides for possibly what is consistently the best classic team of the last few generations. Before he rode for QS he was at Trek with guys like Devolder and Cancellara above him. Expecting to find performances exactly indicative of his ability is tough, considering he's obviously played a supporting role for his whole career so far when he has raced the big one-day races.

I seem to remember him doing a lot of work on the front of the group Valverde won his Giro stage from in 2016 and we shouldn't forget that he has twice won the young rider classification in the Giro, beating Adam Yates and Davide Formolo last year, two men who have been championed as future monument winners. Yes, Jungels is massive in the TT, but you don't do well in the Giro on TT ability alone.

Doesn't mean he isn't doping, but I do think a decent result was expected from him.


I definitely haven't forgotten those things. My point was that in that Giro he climbed really well - but in exactly the way you would expect a big rider with a (first class) diesel engine to climb. i.e. ride tempo, limit losses against the pure climbers, don't go with sharp accelerations etc. He was great at that, and that's how he got a top ten and white jersey.

The display in LBL was something very different: explosive power late in the race, on a climb that averages 11%, that was severe enough to put almost everyone (and we're talking serious climbing pedigree here) in trouble.

Whatever the case may be, that's definitely a new thing we all witnessed from Jungels.

As far as Woods goes - who's to say how clean/unclean he is, but him riding well in the Ardennes shows nothing new at all. It's exactly his terrain, he's exactly the kind of rider I would expect to be up there on 11% climbs.



This is where we differ then. He got nearly all of his gap on the descent and the flat. They're back together when they start descending Roche aux Faucons, Jungels goes and they just watch him. There was no co-operation, I think Dan Martin and Wellens were the most active chasers, And Ala just shut them down and killed it. Jungels lost nearly 30 seconds on Saint Nicolas, they just gave him too much time on a bunch that didn't want to work together.

It was a TT effort, a couple of minutes of pain followed by a TT effort from a massive TTer who had been anonymous all day. The reduced bunch didn't want to chase, probably because they thought he wouldn't make it, but that, combined with the few attacks that were made being chased down by other favourites (except Vanendert who again they probably felt wouldn't make it, and didn't) meant a seriously talented TTer got a big enough gap to win.


It's a brilliant performance, but from a 25 year old with his palmares, on that team in a race with those tactics I really don't think this performance makes him any more suspicious.


Well I watched the climb again - and grant you some of what you're saying. There's certainly no doubt that he opened and maintained the gap with a tt effort.

The explosive (and short lived) attack was made by Gilbert; Henao and a few others chase him, and then Jungels chases them and ends up in front near the top.

So it's true that didn't really split the race on the climb. It's more the case that he was one of the very few to make the split. Nonetheless, quite a lot of explosive power exhibited there.

But maybe I'm making too much of that....
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Re: Re:

26 Apr 2018 10:45

The Hegelian wrote:
King Boonen wrote:
The Hegelian wrote:
King Boonen wrote:Bob Jungels is 25 and rides for possibly what is consistently the best classic team of the last few generations. Before he rode for QS he was at Trek with guys like Devolder and Cancellara above him. Expecting to find performances exactly indicative of his ability is tough, considering he's obviously played a supporting role for his whole career so far when he has raced the big one-day races.

I seem to remember him doing a lot of work on the front of the group Valverde won his Giro stage from in 2016 and we shouldn't forget that he has twice won the young rider classification in the Giro, beating Adam Yates and Davide Formolo last year, two men who have been championed as future monument winners. Yes, Jungels is massive in the TT, but you don't do well in the Giro on TT ability alone.

Doesn't mean he isn't doping, but I do think a decent result was expected from him.


I definitely haven't forgotten those things. My point was that in that Giro he climbed really well - but in exactly the way you would expect a big rider with a (first class) diesel engine to climb. i.e. ride tempo, limit losses against the pure climbers, don't go with sharp accelerations etc. He was great at that, and that's how he got a top ten and white jersey.

The display in LBL was something very different: explosive power late in the race, on a climb that averages 11%, that was severe enough to put almost everyone (and we're talking serious climbing pedigree here) in trouble.

Whatever the case may be, that's definitely a new thing we all witnessed from Jungels.

As far as Woods goes - who's to say how clean/unclean he is, but him riding well in the Ardennes shows nothing new at all. It's exactly his terrain, he's exactly the kind of rider I would expect to be up there on 11% climbs.



This is where we differ then. He got nearly all of his gap on the descent and the flat. They're back together when they start descending Roche aux Faucons, Jungels goes and they just watch him. There was no co-operation, I think Dan Martin and Wellens were the most active chasers, And Ala just shut them down and killed it. Jungels lost nearly 30 seconds on Saint Nicolas, they just gave him too much time on a bunch that didn't want to work together.

It was a TT effort, a couple of minutes of pain followed by a TT effort from a massive TTer who had been anonymous all day. The reduced bunch didn't want to chase, probably because they thought he wouldn't make it, but that, combined with the few attacks that were made being chased down by other favourites (except Vanendert who again they probably felt wouldn't make it, and didn't) meant a seriously talented TTer got a big enough gap to win.


It's a brilliant performance, but from a 25 year old with his palmares, on that team in a race with those tactics I really don't think this performance makes him any more suspicious.


Well I watched the climb again - and grant you some of what you're saying. There's certainly no doubt that he opened and maintained the gap with a tt effort.

The explosive (and short lived) attack was made by Gilbert; Henao and a few others chase him, and then Jungels chases them and ends up in front near the top.

So it's true that didn't really split the race on the climb. It's more the case that he was one of the very few to make the split. Nonetheless, quite a lot of explosive power exhibited there.

But maybe I'm making too much of that....


I'd agree, more than anything else he won because he had the strongest rider in the race in the chasing group, also taking into account that Valverde was still bluffing his way through as well. No-one fancied towing either of them to the finish.

Things turned out well for Jungels as he was the one who was in charge of covering moves on the key climb and, taken in isolation, nothing other-worldly at all as i see it.

If he'd held off a fully cooperating group then it'd be a different matter...
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27 Apr 2018 17:46

yea, when the pro peloton's biggest sail Dan Martin gets nervous enough to attack on a flat/downhill section you know there's a serious lack of cooperation in the chase.
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21 Jun 2018 04:50

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/viviani-takes-first-leaders-jersey-at-adriatica-ionica-race/
The team time trial win marked the 39th UCI victory for Quick-Step Floors this season...


39th ! Ok, it's Adriatica Ionica, but even so, impressive.
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