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Timing of EPO in early 90's that doesn't add up..

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Re: Timing of EPO in early 90's that doesn't add up..

15 Aug 2018 10:57

buckle wrote:Clinical trials has been completed by 1983 in America but not sure about Europe.
Could we get a source for that? TIA.

In Kathleen Sharp's Blood Medicine it says that trials commenced in 1985 (Japan and Seattle) and 1986 (London), with other trials following. AFAIK 1983 was when they worked out a method for mass production, They then had to raise millions to do the work. And they only filed the patent in 1984 and treated their first patient in 1985.
buckle wrote:Something "big" happened between 1980 and 1984 and the tell is in track and field especially in the middle distance events e.g. 800 metres. Nobody has a name for this era or the few years leading up to it.
If something big really did happen then there's many other doping products one could point to from synthetic HGH to blood transfusions. There's also many other excuses one could turn to before doping, if something really did happen.
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Re: Timing of EPO in early 90's that doesn't add up..

15 Aug 2018 11:01

shalgo wrote:The 800m times between 1980 and 1984 were just a handful a races from two people--Coe and Cruz. Whatever they were doing, it probably wasn't EPO.
I thought lots of people had joined the dots and put Coe down as using blood bags? Cause he had a lurgy and then when the IOC banned blood bags his form dipped. QED, blood bags, when playing join the dots.
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Re: Timing of EPO in early 90's that doesn't add up..

15 Aug 2018 17:47

fmk_RoI wrote:
shalgo wrote:The 800m times between 1980 and 1984 were just a handful a races from two people--Coe and Cruz. Whatever they were doing, it probably wasn't EPO.
I thought lots of people had joined the dots and put Coe down as using blood bags? Cause he had a lurgy and then when the IOC banned blood bags his form dipped. QED, blood bags, when playing join the dots.


You also probably want to take into account the new anabolic steroid test that was introduced in 1983 before the Pan Am games, causing huge amounts of athletes dropping out , and around 20 being caught. There was definitely a huge algorithm shift/sea change around that time, but probably based on detection methods improving to a certain degree. Granted, from the 50's you had people like Zieglar all the way up to Patrick Arnold (The Clear, etc.) developing designer drugs to improve performance, so there doesn't seem to be a lot of info what the mad scientists out there were cooking up at the time.
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Re: Timing of EPO in early 90's that doesn't add up..

15 Aug 2018 18:07

GraftPunk wrote:You also probably want to take into account the new anabolic steroid test that was introduced in 1983
An improvement in testing technology should see a drop in performance, if drugs and performance can be linked, not the increase claimed.
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Re: Timing of EPO in early 90's that doesn't add up..

15 Aug 2018 20:46

Echoes wrote:My guess is that Mathieu Hermans did not use EPO in the eighties. The confusion came from the fact that he admitted to using during a show by Mart Smeets about the 1989 Tour of France but this does not mean to say that he used it during that particular race. Steven Rooks also admitted during that show to using EPO but after 1989. I seem to have read on these very board that he admitted in his own autobiography todiscover it late 1991 (when 3rd at the Worlds). I don't if that's true but it's plausible. Still despite EPO Rooks never got the same results as in the blood transfusion era, because EPO was so widespread and he was past his prime anyway. Same could be for Hermans.

In this very forum when we had a lot more members I read something that made a lot of sense. Rooks had a high hematocrit to begin with, so the gain would be smaller as well. That was one of the reasons that hurt the Colombians with the appearance of EPO as well.
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Re: Timing of EPO in early 90's that doesn't add up..

15 Aug 2018 21:23

fmk_RoI wrote:In Kathleen Sharp's Blood Medicine it says that trials commenced in 1985 (Japan and Seattle) and 1986 (London), with other trials following. AFAIK 1983 was when they worked out a method for mass production, They then had to raise millions to do the work. And they only filed the patent in 1984 and treated their first patient in 1985..

Amgen filed their first patent in December 1983 in the US. A legal case over the European version of the patent (known in the patent business as 'Kirin-Amgen') is one of the most important in UK patent law.
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Re: Timing of EPO in early 90's that doesn't add up..

16 Aug 2018 14:54

fmk_RoI wrote:
GraftPunk wrote:You also probably want to take into account the new anabolic steroid test that was introduced in 1983
An improvement in testing technology should see a drop in performance, if drugs and performance can be linked, not the increase claimed.


I should have been more clear, my bad. Up until the new more accurate test arrived on the scene athletics had been mostly about anabolics and hgh programs. Afterwards, I think the big players stuck with designer drugs (among other things ie. BB's) whose chemical compounds would not tilt the boat test-wise but still achieved the desired effect.
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01 Oct 2018 21:36

Something very interesting concerning first half of nineties.

source
https://twitter.com/StephaneMandard/status/1046729409825320960
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Re:

02 Oct 2018 10:42

lartiste wrote:Something very interesting concerning first half of nineties.

source
https://twitter.com/StephaneMandard/status/1046729409825320960
The relevance ofthat here is what?
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Re: Timing of EPO in early 90's that doesn't add up..

02 Oct 2018 11:09

The fact Conconi doesn't represent in EPO era I assume?
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Re: Timing of EPO in early 90's that doesn't add up..

02 Oct 2018 11:33

samhocking wrote:The fact Conconi doesn't represent in EPO era I assume?
In English...
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02 Oct 2018 12:38

Sorry, I thought the underlining of Conconi was significant and he was saying to Verbruggen only Indurain hadn't been treated with EPO for 1995 Tour. If my Italian is correct though, Conconi has told Verbruggen of all the riders in 1995 Tour under his guidance or Ferrari and Casoni. So the top 7 riders on final GC it looks like? I didn't follow this Italian investigation much, I don't know the wider context of this document i'm afraid.
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Re: Re:

02 Oct 2018 20:41

fmk_RoI wrote:
lartiste wrote:Something very interesting concerning first half of nineties.

source
https://twitter.com/StephaneMandard/status/1046729409825320960
The relevance ofthat here is what?


This thread is about EPO era, or more specifically EPO at early nineties. Here is the list of cyclists together with their medical advisors who are by coincident also best EPO doctors of their generation .... .
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Re:

02 Oct 2018 20:57

Saint Unix wrote:I'm thinking it was in use in the late 80's, but the true potential of EPO wasn't unlocked until Conconi started experimenting on his lab rats. As with all medicine, it does take time to figure out the dosages to get the most out of the substance. Conconi (and later on Ferrari) were the ones that perfected that for EPO and a combination of other known drugs as an enhancer of cycling performance.


From all I've read and watched, this sounds right. And maps reasonably well to "LeMond's" 1991 date (did he actually say this?) as the point at which some big names (and small names who became big, like Chiapucci) began using in earnest. I would personally mark the performances of indurain, Chiapucci, and Bugno in 1990 as fairly surprising and the first time big riders took victories and classements they shouldn't have. I think by 1991 we are getting into to what in hindsight was some fairly obvious EPO doping.
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Re: Re:

11 Oct 2018 07:29

red_flanders wrote:
Saint Unix wrote:I'm thinking it was in use in the late 80's, but the true potential of EPO wasn't unlocked until Conconi started experimenting on his lab rats. As with all medicine, it does take time to figure out the dosages to get the most out of the substance. Conconi (and later on Ferrari) were the ones that perfected that for EPO and a combination of other known drugs as an enhancer of cycling performance.


From all I've read and watched, this sounds right. And maps reasonably well to "LeMond's" 1991 date (did he actually say this?) as the point at which some big names (and small names who became big, like Chiapucci) began using in earnest. I would personally mark the performances of indurain, Chiapucci, and Bugno in 1990 as fairly surprising and the first time big riders took victories and classements they shouldn't have. I think by 1991 we are getting into to what in hindsight was some fairly obvious EPO doping.


Indurain had a pretty steady career trajectory. He won Paris-Nice and Catlunya a couple times, won a couple of mountain stages in the Tour while domestiquing for Delgado, won San Sebastian in 1990 and went close in the '91 Vuelta, and then age 27 won his first Tour. The unusual part was his then going on to dominate the Tour for 5 years in a row.

The outliers are the guys who dramatically shot up the rankings and down again while competing with him (Bugno, Chiappucci) or the late bloomers; (Rominger won his first Grand Tour at 31, having never finished higher than 16th (bit of a precedent for G, there) and set a World Hour Record at 33. And Riis, of course.) Or the younger riders who uncontestably came up in the EPO era (Virenque, Pantani).
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Re: Re:

11 Oct 2018 17:02

Leinster wrote:Indurain had a pretty steady career trajectory. He won Paris-Nice and Catlunya a couple times, won a couple of mountain stages in the Tour while domestiquing for Delgado, won San Sebastian in 1990 and went close in the '91 Vuelta, and then age 27 won his first Tour. The unusual part was his then going on to dominate the Tour for 5 years in a row.
This is a very weak argument. It requires that you believe doping begins with EPO. It ignores the reality of what was happening in the 1980s, pretends transfusions were not a thing despite all the evidence to the contrary, evidence that points toward Reynolds/Banesto being among those using blood bags.
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Re: Re:

11 Oct 2018 17:32

fmk_RoI wrote:
Leinster wrote:Indurain had a pretty steady career trajectory. He won Paris-Nice and Catlunya a couple times, won a couple of mountain stages in the Tour while domestiquing for Delgado, won San Sebastian in 1990 and went close in the '91 Vuelta, and then age 27 won his first Tour. The unusual part was his then going on to dominate the Tour for 5 years in a row.
This is a very weak argument. It requires that you believe doping begins with EPO. It ignores the reality of what was happening in the 1980s, pretends transfusions were not a thing despite all the evidence to the contrary, evidence that points toward Reynolds/Banesto being among those using blood bags.

I was simply pointing out that Indurain’s career timeline is not a reliable indicator for when EPO came into the Peloton. Whatever “training regime” he was on in 1991, probably wasn’t drastically different from what he was doing in 1989, when he won a Tour mountain stage and Paris-Nice, or 88, when he won the Volta Catalunya, or 86 when he won the Tour de l’Avenir. Not saying he didn’t dabble in clinicky things, just that his wasn’t an out-of-the-blue improvement, certainly not on the scale of some of his contemporaries.
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Re: Re:

11 Oct 2018 17:52

Leinster wrote:
fmk_RoI wrote:
Leinster wrote:Indurain had a pretty steady career trajectory. He won Paris-Nice and Catlunya a couple times, won a couple of mountain stages in the Tour while domestiquing for Delgado, won San Sebastian in 1990 and went close in the '91 Vuelta, and then age 27 won his first Tour. The unusual part was his then going on to dominate the Tour for 5 years in a row.
This is a very weak argument. It requires that you believe doping begins with EPO. It ignores the reality of what was happening in the 1980s, pretends transfusions were not a thing despite all the evidence to the contrary, evidence that points toward Reynolds/Banesto being among those using blood bags.

I was simply pointing out that Indurain’s career timeline is not a reliable indicator for when EPO came into the Peloton. Whatever “training regime” he was on in 1991, probably wasn’t drastically different from what he was doing in 1989, when he won a Tour mountain stage and Paris-Nice, or 88, when he won the Volta Catalunya, or 86 when he won the Tour de l’Avenir. Not saying he didn’t dabble in clinicky things, just that his wasn’t an out-of-the-blue improvement, certainly not on the scale of some of his contemporaries.
And none of that adds any strength to your argument for how you can judge the arrval of EPO.
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