Log in:  

Register

Timing of EPO in early 90's that doesn't add up..

The Clinic is the only place on Cyclingnews where you can discuss doping-related issues. Ask questions, discuss positives or improvements to procedures.

Moderators: Eshnar, King Boonen, Red Rick, Pricey_sky

Re:

01 Aug 2018 15:59

fmk_RoI wrote:Provocative revisionism I'm all in favour of and any attempt to question whether doping can be seen in big-picture performance levels - that step-changes in performance exist and can be credited to particular doping periods - I will applaud. (There's a paper that looked at the average speeds of all three GTs over a reasonably long period and questioned whether doping could be blamed on the change, are you familiar with it? I'll look it out if not.)

I've tried at least to browse through all the available material from the Brouwer-Lodewijkx-Heuberger-Cohen - school of the Dutch researchers and there are a few papers about the speed progression of GT's at least superficially debunking the similar paper by El Helou et al quoted very often (also in The Secret Race).

It is the final word of that (nonexistent) debate, because El Helou et al never gave any answer, as far as I know, and it is difficult to know if their methodology is dubious or not. Generally it is too bad that the "respected" researchers have never bothered to debunk practically any of their work (except the Mt. Ventoux TT- paper a year ago) at all and most of the wiseguys here think that putting the word "research" in quotation marks when referencing to their work equals a careful point-by-point refutation.

Interesting stuff nevertheless and I even asked Alex Simmons about his take on the issue when wrote about the speed trends in his blog not too long time ago. Unfortunately he gave no answer, but I do get that he is a busy guy.

If you want an article idea to write during the cycling OFF-season, here it is: These these Dutch guys might find it valuable if there was an English language venue where they could tell their views in popular form and I think that most readers would find it interesting if there did exist a more comprehensive article about these guys.

It might simultaneously stimulate enough interest for the more traditional researchers to participate in the discussion with them.
Escarabajo wrote:Who cares about the early adopters in 88 or 89. The proper use wasn't really known. Maybe some of the Doctors will write about it in some book.

I already at least throw some suspicion into this "proper use wasn't known"- myth:

viewtopic.php?p=2296772#p2296772

There exists also the following interview with one Italian xc-skier about his recollections about his collaboration with Francesco Conconi preceding the 1988 Calgary winter olympics:
: How much of blood had you originally donated for reinfusion?
A: Roughly 800-900 millilitres.
...
Q: Do you have any information, how high haematocrit you had then during the Calgary olympics?
A: I am not sure about that. All I can tell you is that it is normally excess of 50 %.
Q: Very high naturally.
A: Yeah. It can be, that it had risen either to - say 53 or 54, but it is difficult to say exactly.

If his natural value was indeed above 50 %, most likely the final Hct was even higher than he assumes, and correpsondingly it is very unlikely that the Ferrara guys would've used rHuEPO to elevate Hct to high 40 %'s or low 50 %'s at first.
Last edited by Aragon on 01 Aug 2018 16:04, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar Aragon
Junior Member
 
Posts: 206
Joined: 29 Aug 2016 17:44
Location: Finland

01 Aug 2018 16:00

Weren't there some reports about a hidden EPO practice in Eindhoven around 1988 sparking rumors about the PSV soccer team of that time!?
User avatar staubsauger
Senior Member
 
Posts: 3,203
Joined: 27 Jul 2009 18:14

Re:

01 Aug 2018 17:08

staubsauger wrote:Weren't there some reports about a hidden EPO practice in Eindhoven around 1988 sparking rumors about the PSV soccer team of that time!?

That's impossible! If I'm not mistaken, Cees-Rein van den Hoogenband was PSV doctor at that time.
:lol:
User avatar franic
Member
 
Posts: 604
Joined: 04 Oct 2014 17:08

Re:

02 Aug 2018 12:23

staubsauger wrote:Mathieu Hermans is one of the true EPO pioneers
Can anyone supply a proper source showing Herman putting his EPO use in a particular timeframe? TIA.
User avatar fmk_RoI
Senior Member
 
Posts: 2,885
Joined: 16 Sep 2010 07:31

Re: Timing of EPO in early 90's that doesn't add up..

02 Aug 2018 13:32

It always struck me that toward the end of that era both Indurain and Chiappucci had bulked out considerably (particularly in the thigh area). I mean Indurain was tall but always had very little definition in the early 90's.

In the second picture there is a lot of bulk there I would say - I had always assumed it was grinding big gears but some of you more well versed in pharma might give me the real reason.

I remember when he climbed off in the 1996 Vuelta and thinking 'christ no wonder he is struggling - his legs look enormous'.

Image

Image
B_Ugli
Member
 
Posts: 446
Joined: 23 Feb 2011 13:41

Re: Timing of EPO in early 90's that doesn't add up..

02 Aug 2018 14:50

B_Ugli wrote:It always struck me that toward the end of that era both Indurain and Chiappucci had bulked out considerably (particularly in the thigh area). I mean Indurain was tall but always had very little definition in the early 90's.

In the second picture there is a lot of bulk there I would say - I had always assumed it was grinding big gears but some of you more well versed in pharma might give me the real reason.

I remember when he climbed off in the 1996 Vuelta and thinking 'christ no wonder he is struggling - his legs look enormous'.

Image

Image

White makes you look fatter :lol:
User avatar franic
Member
 
Posts: 604
Joined: 04 Oct 2014 17:08

Re: Re:

02 Aug 2018 15:59

fmk_RoI wrote:
staubsauger wrote:Mathieu Hermans is one of the true EPO pioneers
Can anyone supply a proper source showing Herman putting his EPO use in a particular timeframe? TIA.

He admitted to EPO usage in 1989 Tour de France. His only notable results date frome 1988 & 1989 with a significant performance boost in 1988 that ended once EPO became widespread in the 90s!
User avatar staubsauger
Senior Member
 
Posts: 3,203
Joined: 27 Jul 2009 18:14

Re: Re:

02 Aug 2018 16:02

staubsauger wrote:
fmk_RoI wrote:
staubsauger wrote:Mathieu Hermans is one of the true EPO pioneers
Can anyone supply a proper source showing Herman putting his EPO use in a particular timeframe? TIA.

He admitted to EPO usage in 1989 Tour de France. His only notable results date frome 1988 & 1989 with a significant performance boost in 1988 that ended once EPO became widespread in the 90s!
And the source for that admission is ... you?
User avatar fmk_RoI
Senior Member
 
Posts: 2,885
Joined: 16 Sep 2010 07:31

Re: Timing of EPO in early 90's that doesn't add up..

02 Aug 2018 16:06

B_Ugli wrote:It always struck me that toward the end of that era both Indurain and Chiappucci had bulked out considerably (particularly in the thigh area). I mean Indurain was tall but always had very little definition in the early 90's....

Big Mig was known as a "masher," possibly the mashiest masher of all time. Two things that Campagnolo created in that era at his request were a 56-tooth chainring for TTs and a Record spider for a racing triple front derailleur. His hour record bike wore 59x13 gearing and 190mm crank arms.

I think you would need some rather substantial hams to push gears that large.
Last edited by StyrbjornSterki on 02 Aug 2018 16:07, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar StyrbjornSterki
Member
 
Posts: 922
Joined: 18 Jul 2010 22:00

Re: Re:

02 Aug 2018 16:07

fmk_RoI wrote:
staubsauger wrote:
fmk_RoI wrote:
staubsauger wrote:Mathieu Hermans is one of the true EPO pioneers
Can anyone supply a proper source showing Herman putting his EPO use in a particular timeframe? TIA.

He admitted to EPO usage in 1989 Tour de France. His only notable results date frome 1988 & 1989 with a significant performance boost in 1988 that ended once EPO became widespread in the 90s!
And the source for that admission is ... you?

There's an article in Trouw, which wasn't the original report I read 2 years ago. https://www.trouw.nl/home/rooks-jakobs-en-hermans-geven-epo-gebruik-toe~af4c0575/

Apparently he confirmed using EPO to Mart Smeets in his book "The last maillot jaune" about the 1989 Tour de France!
User avatar staubsauger
Senior Member
 
Posts: 3,203
Joined: 27 Jul 2009 18:14

Re: Re:

02 Aug 2018 16:09

fmk_RoI wrote:And the source for that admission is ... you?

You couldn't simply ask for the source like a normal person, could you.
User avatar hrotha
Veteran
 
Posts: 15,756
Joined: 10 Jun 2010 20:45

Re: Re:

02 Aug 2018 16:14

hrotha wrote:
fmk_RoI wrote:And the source for that admission is ... you?

You couldn't simply ask for the source like a normal person, could you.
Which part of my original request was too difficult for you?
fmk_RoI wrote:
staubsauger wrote:Mathieu Hermans is one of the true EPO pioneers
Can anyone supply a proper source showing Herman putting his EPO use in a particular timeframe? TIA.
User avatar fmk_RoI
Senior Member
 
Posts: 2,885
Joined: 16 Sep 2010 07:31

Re: Re:

02 Aug 2018 16:18

staubsauger wrote:
fmk_RoI wrote:
staubsauger wrote:
fmk_RoI wrote:
staubsauger wrote:Mathieu Hermans is one of the true EPO pioneers
Can anyone supply a proper source showing Herman putting his EPO use in a particular timeframe? TIA.

He admitted to EPO usage in 1989 Tour de France. His only notable results date frome 1988 & 1989 with a significant performance boost in 1988 that ended once EPO became widespread in the 90s!
And the source for that admission is ... you?

There's an article in Trouw, which wasn't the original report I read 2 years ago. https://www.trouw.nl/home/rooks-jakobs-en-hermans-geven-epo-gebruik-toe~af4c0575/

Apparently he confirmed using EPO to Mart Smeets in his book "The last maillot jaune" about the 1989 Tour de France!
In any of the reports I have read about that book Hermans does not specifically admit to having used EPO in 1989. If you have a report showing he does - or better still the quote from the book - then please produce it. Even in the link you posted all he says is:
"You know who our team doctor was?", Hermans asks Smeets. "He knew the product." When asked if he used it himself: "It was not then forbidden. Let me put it this way: I have practiced my sport in a decent way. Can I say it like that? "
Which is not "I used EPO in 1989."

Look, lots of people say he said it: it can't be that bleeding hard to produce a source, can it?
User avatar fmk_RoI
Senior Member
 
Posts: 2,885
Joined: 16 Sep 2010 07:31

02 Aug 2018 16:51

Rob, often you raise good points, but you might have more success with forum members actually wanting to read your posts if you were less condescending to those you disagree with. I think that may be what hrotha is referring to. There's nothing wrong with being polite after all.
The poster formerly known as yespatterns.
User avatar GraftPunk
Member
 
Posts: 757
Joined: 21 Feb 2017 21:15
Location: High Desert Steppe

Re: Timing of EPO in early 90's that doesn't add up..

14 Aug 2018 18:27

My guess is that Mathieu Hermans did not use EPO in the eighties. The confusion came from the fact that he admitted to using during a show by Mart Smeets about the 1989 Tour of France but this does not mean to say that he used it during that particular race. Steven Rooks also admitted during that show to using EPO but after 1989. I seem to have read on these very board that he admitted in his own autobiography todiscover it late 1991 (when 3rd at the Worlds). I don't if that's true but it's plausible. Still despite EPO Rooks never got the same results as in the blood transfusion era, because EPO was so widespread and he was past his prime anyway. Same could be for Hermans.
Echoes
Senior Member
 
Posts: 3,021
Joined: 08 Oct 2009 17:57

Re: Timing of EPO in early 90's that doesn't add up..

14 Aug 2018 18:50

Echoes wrote:My guess is that Mathieu Hermans did not use EPO in the eighties. The confusion came from the fact that he admitted to using during a show by Mart Smeets about the 1989 Tour of France but this does not mean to say that he used it during that particular race. Steven Rooks also admitted during that show to using EPO but after 1989. I seem to have read on these very board that he admitted in his own autobiography todiscover it late 1991 (when 3rd at the Worlds). I don't if that's true but it's plausible. Still despite EPO Rooks never got the same results as in the blood transfusion era, because EPO was so widespread and he was past his prime anyway. Same could be for Hermans.

There is a lot of confusion about that book by Mart Smeets caused by nobody actually reading it and referring to secondary sources about its alleged content. One interesting item is that the official "About Gert"- page of Gert Jakobs has a short biography about him where it also states that he told Mart Smeets having taken EPO in 1989 when it wasn't banned:

https://www.gertjakobs.nl/over-gert/

On one hand this is his official webpage and the information should be 100 % accurate, but on the other hand the material is most likely a copy-paste job from his old Wikipedia page.

https://web.archive.org/web/20110707171648/https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gert_Jakobs

Because this is the first confession about rHuEPO use I am aware of from the 1980's, it is strange that all the handful of other sources claim he started to use rHuEPO in 1993 while in the Festina team, so the timeline is totally inconsistent. Out of curiosity I even asked his agent/webmaster about the inconsistency issue two years ago and she forwarded the problem to Mr. Jakobs.

No idea how she forwarded the question/issue, but the answer was that he isn't interested in addressing the matter at all because he reckons it "irrelevant".
User avatar Aragon
Junior Member
 
Posts: 206
Joined: 29 Aug 2016 17:44
Location: Finland

Re: Timing of EPO in early 90's that doesn't add up..

14 Aug 2018 19:01

Echoes wrote:My guess is that Mathieu Hermans did not use EPO in the eighties. The confusion came from the fact that he admitted to using during a show by Mart Smeets about the 1989 Tour of France but this does not mean to say that he used it during that particular race. Steven Rooks also admitted during that show to using EPO but after 1989. I seem to have read on these very board that he admitted in his own autobiography todiscover it late 1991 (when 3rd at the Worlds). I don't if that's true but it's plausible. Still despite EPO Rooks never got the same results as in the blood transfusion era, because EPO was so widespread and he was past his prime anyway. Same could be for Hermans.
I have no opinion of when he would have used the stuff. When I asked for a source I naïvely presumed there was one, the claim has been repeated multiple times in threads on the Clinic. I'm sure that, in time, someone will eventually come up with the relevant quote supporting the claim, if not from the Smeets book then from his own. This shouldn't be hard given so many say he said it.
User avatar fmk_RoI
Senior Member
 
Posts: 2,885
Joined: 16 Sep 2010 07:31

Re: Timing of EPO in early 90's that doesn't add up..

14 Aug 2018 19:10

Aragon wrote:
Echoes wrote:My guess is that Mathieu Hermans did not use EPO in the eighties. The confusion came from the fact that he admitted to using during a show by Mart Smeets about the 1989 Tour of France but this does not mean to say that he used it during that particular race. Steven Rooks also admitted during that show to using EPO but after 1989. I seem to have read on these very board that he admitted in his own autobiography todiscover it late 1991 (when 3rd at the Worlds). I don't if that's true but it's plausible. Still despite EPO Rooks never got the same results as in the blood transfusion era, because EPO was so widespread and he was past his prime anyway. Same could be for Hermans.

There is a lot of confusion about that book by Mart Smeets caused by nobody actually reading it and referring to secondary sources about its alleged content. One interesting item is that the official "About Gert"- page of Gert Jakobs has a short biography about him where it also states that he told Mart Smeets having taken EPO in 1989 when it wasn't banned:

https://www.gertjakobs.nl/over-gert/

On one hand this is his official webpage and the information should be 100 % accurate, but on the other hand the material is most likely a copy-paste job from his old Wikipedia page.

https://web.archive.org/web/20110707171648/https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gert_Jakobs

Because this is the first confession about rHuEPO use I am aware of from the 1980's, it is strange that all the handful of other sources claim he started to use rHuEPO in 1993 while in the Festina team, so the timeline is totally inconsistent. Out of curiosity I even asked his agent/webmaster about the inconsistency issue two years ago and she forwarded the problem to Mr. Jakobs.

No idea how she forwarded the question/issue, but the answer was that he isn't interested in addressing the matter at all because he reckons it "irrelevant".
The Wiki loop is wonderful, isn't it? Something gets claimed on Wiki, repeated on a real website and - presto! - Wiki's got a citation for the original claim.

What I do find useful in the Hermans quote - the vague non-admission admission - is that he points to the role of Fuentes. Conconi will doubtlessly long be known as the father of Gen EPO but I think we'll eventually find it had many fathers.
User avatar fmk_RoI
Senior Member
 
Posts: 2,885
Joined: 16 Sep 2010 07:31

Re: Re:

14 Aug 2018 20:11

StyrbjornSterki wrote:
StyrbjornSterki wrote:...Lemond came third in his first appearance in the TdF (1985). He probably could have contended for GC with a stronger team. He did win in 1986. He bore all the earmarks of a borned GC contender (except for the 'American" thing). And in 1991 he was only 30 years and a couple of weeks of age....

Obviously I goofed. Lemond's first Tdf was 1984, but he did come 3rd, despite an almost nonexistent team . In 1985 he came 2nd to injured team captain Bernie Hinault, but only because he was sportsman enough to acquiesce to team orders that he sacrifice his own almost certain GC victory by doing so. And he did win GC in 1986, with no real competition apart his own teammate, the Badger. Third place finished almost 11 minutes back.


That would be the Renault-Elf team that only won 10 of the 23 stages and somehow goofed by not holding the yellow jersey after the first 4 stages?
wansteadimp
Junior Member
 
Posts: 283
Joined: 20 Mar 2013 12:16

Re: Timing of EPO in early 90's that doesn't add up..

14 Aug 2018 20:44

buckle wrote:Clinical trials has been completed by 1983 in America but not sure about Europe. EPO was seen as an alternative to expensive and impractical blood transfusions.

Something "big" happened between 1980 and 1984 and the tell is in track and field especially in the middle distance events e.g. 800 metres. Nobody has a name for this era or the few years leading up to it.

The 800m times between 1980 and 1984 were just a handful a races from two people--Coe and Cruz. Whatever they were doing, it probably wasn't EPO. Just look at the track races where EPO would help most: there was virtually no improvement in 5000m or 10,000m times in the 80s and early 90s. The real change in athletics started in 1994-95.

Take the 5000m. Moorcroft ran 13:00 in 1982 and as of early 1994 the record had only improved by two seconds, to 12:58. But by 1997 the record dropped another 19 seconds, to 12:39. The mid-90s were clearly the time when EPO made a big differences in athletics.
shalgo
Member
 
Posts: 1,495
Joined: 11 Aug 2010 13:57
Location: Pale Blue Dot

PreviousNext

Return to The Clinic

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: sworks and 15 guests

Back to top