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The Clinic is the only place on Cyclingnews where you can discuss doping-related issues. Ask questions, discuss positives or improvements to procedures.

Moderators: Irondan, Eshnar, Red Rick, Valv.Piti, Pricey_sky, Tonton, King Boonen

Re: Re:

10 Feb 2017 15:24

Early reports of cases are frequently wrong.

funny coming from the guy who just quoted Cecchini in defense of...Cecchini.
sniper
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10 Feb 2017 15:26

Unable to use google translate...That's your excuse... Just get out of here.
ThePopeOfDope
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10 Feb 2017 15:28

All of this to avoid having to admit you're wrong. You'd rather look like an idiot than being wrong... I'm honestly curious to know how old you are?
ThePopeOfDope
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10 Feb 2017 15:35

The funniest thing is that he's defending someone who "coached" Bjarne Riis while he was on 2 maybe even 3 doses of epo a day and used 3 blood bags for 96 TDF...HCT of 60% was probably higher... Who do you think helped him with his transfusions?
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Re: Re:

10 Feb 2017 15:37

fmk_RoI wrote:
ThePopeOfDope wrote:Are you unable to read the article? The police found Cecchini to be a collaborator/assistant of Prof.Conconi. How many times do you expect me to repeat myself before you understand it?
If the article were in English you might have a point - is it in English? As for what the police allegedly found - when it went to trial, what was the outcome? Early reports of cases are frequently wrong.


Italian Judiciary hardly ever reaches the heights of Justice.
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Re:

10 Feb 2017 15:45

ThePopeOfDope wrote:Who do you think helped him with his transfusions?
This guy on the photo maybe? Naaah.

Image
Image
sniper
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10 Feb 2017 15:49

@sniper haha that second picture is great, I thought the Dr had his tongue out.I'm going to save it. Do you know if it's from 95 or 96?
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Re:

10 Feb 2017 15:55

ThePopeOfDope wrote:@sniper haha that second picture is great, I thought the Dr had his tongue out.I'm going to save it. Do you know if it's from 95 or 96?
edit: 96 (see valvepiti's post below)
Here's another from the same day. It seems he was comfortable with needles.

Image
Last edited by sniper on 10 Feb 2017 15:59, edited 1 time in total.
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10 Feb 2017 15:58

Bjarne Riis didn't even ride for Telekom in 95, so its 96 or 97. Actually, its likely to be 97 since he rode the Tour 1996 in the danish NC jersey... well, it can be either year as he won the NCs in 95 and 96, my guess is 1996 then.
Last edited by Valv.Piti on 10 Feb 2017 16:00, edited 1 time in total.
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10 Feb 2017 15:59

Cecchini buying DHEA - https://goo.gl/4akXKA

"Max, listen, I send you my son; I prepare the bill so I pay you. " "Yes, thank you; Listen, Louis, I wanted to say that I found the DHEA sulfate. " "Ah." "Pretend, 100 capsules of 20 milligrams." December 1997; before the outbreak of the doping scandals (Tour '98 Giro 2001) that have invaded cycling. It took place as negotiations between a Bolognese pharmacist very well known in 'sport environment and an equally famous Tuscan doctor. At one end of the phone Dr Luigi Cecchini, that all 'era was following numerous runners cry; dall 'other, pharmacist of Bologna Massimo Guandalini.
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10 Feb 2017 16:02

@Valv.Piti You're right he was still in Gewiss in 95, the national jersey got me confused. Thank you :)
@sniper That's an even better picture and you can see his power meter... (Marginal Gains back in 96 ;) thank you.
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10 Feb 2017 19:54

Re Cecchini, Conconi and the prescriptions

AFAIK, the only real link between Cecco and Conconi is that he was initially a part of the Ferrara investigation, that when the authorities hit the pharmacy in Bologna they found there prescriptions issued by Cecchini. The dates on the prescriptions, I don't know. Those who know the matter better, maybe you can provide them. Whatever the dates (pre or post 1996), the authorities dropped Cecchini from the case (he says they never even questioned him about it). How that can possibly make Cecchini a well known associate of Conconi I don't know. Me, call me picky, but I'd expect a little bit more evidence for him to be a well known associate.

(Also, Cecchini in at least one interview I've seen says he sued journalists over this - now lots of people claim they'll initiate cases, I know, it's bollox. But Cecchini also claims that he won his cases and received compensation. If someone wants to ferret out reports about these lawsuits and the reality of their outcomes, go for it. This of course does not prove he was innocent, I don't claim it does. But it does raise questions about the reports themselves. Which is why what's said in a court case is more important than what is alleged in a news story before it gets to court.)

The issue here isn't whether Cecco was a dirty doctor or not - I think we're all agreed on the reality of that. The issue here is whether he was as dirty as we thought. We have claims from Riis, from Dekker, from Jaksche, from Millar, from Hamilton, from Cancellara all suggesting at the very least that - by the time they dealt with him - Cecco had got the hang of compartmentalisation, certainly where they were concerned. (Hamilton's version of reality is of particular relevance there.) Rather than simply dismiss those claims out of hand as being the lies of lying liars, I think it's worth entertaining them and seeing where they lead us, examine what they tell us about what we think we know. But then that's me, I don't need the world to be black and white, good guys and bad guys (or, round here, bad guys and more bad guys).

WRT the piccies above, and particularly the syringe. Yes, I think drawing blood is proof of doping, of course it is. It's all the proof we need and more besides. If you take it out, of course you put it back in. Everyone's seen Hancock.
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Re:

10 Feb 2017 20:03

ThePopeOfDope wrote:Are you unable to read the article? The police found Cecchini to be a collaborator/assistant of Prof.Conconi. How many times do you expect me to repeat myself before you understand it?

This is exactly why we have this rule pinned to the top of every subforum. The burden lies on you, the poster to provide an english translation of any link or post.

http://forum.cyclingnews.com/viewtopic.php?p=2045417#p2045417

I will not delete the original post this time, but next time it will be unless it's translated.

Cheers
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Re:

10 Feb 2017 20:14

Bronstein wrote:Cecchini buying DHEA - https://goo.gl/4akXKA

"Max, listen, I send you my son; I prepare the bill so I pay you. " "Yes, thank you; Listen, Louis, I wanted to say that I found the DHEA sulfate. " "Ah." "Pretend, 100 capsules of 20 milligrams." December 1997; before the outbreak of the doping scandals (Tour '98 Giro 2001) that have invaded cycling. It took place as negotiations between a Bolognese pharmacist very well known in 'sport environment and an equally famous Tuscan doctor. At one end of the phone Dr Luigi Cecchini, that all 'era was following numerous runners cry; dall 'other, pharmacist of Bologna Massimo Guandalini.

Nice link.
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10 Feb 2017 22:33

@Irondan Thanks for the info will make the effort next time.

@fmk_RoI The fact you doubt the police linking Cecchini to Conconi is laughable. They are the ones fighting the war on doping. The reason why Conconi was acquitted was because the bureaucracy allowed it to happen. The police did all the work for nothing to happen...
Dr.Ferrari also won many lawsuit does that acquit him of being a doping Dr? I'm guessing your reply is of course no he worked with Armstrong... Well the same goes for Cecchini who worked with Mr.60%...
Here is an extract of how Cecchini got into cycling :

«Ho scoperto la bici a 40 anni e l’ho fatto perché mi ci hanno costretto problemi di salute, come sovrappeso e pressione alta. Ho iniziato per divertimento, poi mi sono appassionato e sono arrivato addirittura a gareggiare, come faccio ancora, tra i cicloamatori. Mi interesso comunque di altri sport e prima praticavo l’automobilismo. Ho poi il brevetto di pilota d’aereo, altro sport bellissimo. E, per finire, ho praticato anche calcio e tennis».

I discovered the bike at 40 and I did it for my health because I was overweight and had high blood pressure. It started as an hobby,I then became very passionate and started racing like I still do to this day. I'm also interested in other sports and prior to cycling I raced in motorsports. I also have a pilots license, another beautiful thing. I also played football and tennis.
He got into cycling at 40 and won the cronocoppie di Aglianna with Bartoli averaging 50km/hr.... Now I don't think I need to tell you how ridiculous that performance is for someone who started exercising in his 40s...

I also find it very amusing you decide to use Hamilton but not Manzano... Why not? Does it bother you that he says Cecchini sent his clients to Fuentes? Does it not make sense for a Dr. under scrutiny to collaborate with someone who has more freedom to operate? Similarly as to how Ferrari would fly to Switzerland or Tenerife to work with his athletes.
Doping only amounts for the last few % the other 90+% come from training, diet..etc Dr.Ferrari while preparing Rominger's hour record spent weeks working with experts and Rominger to develop the most aero position possible... so of course Dr.'s don't spend every single minute of their day talking about doping because doping without training is as useless as you trying to prove that Cecchini is just a very unlucky guy...
Now since you think Cecchini is the cleanest of Dr.'s who most likely never doped athletes...etc(I say this because thinking anyone connected with Fuentes is not as dirty as the rest is just being very gullible) you should sign up for the Maratona delle Dolomiti...The apple doesn't fall far from the tree...
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Re:

10 Feb 2017 22:37

fmk_RoI wrote:Rather than simply dismiss those claims out of hand as being the lies of lying liars, I think it's worth entertaining them and seeing where they lead us, examine what they tell us about what we think we know.

Lets not forget that the claims from Dekker, Hamilton etc. came from tell all books where they hanged pretty much everyone that they could. Why leave out Cecchini? I think it says alot that ALL of those guys claim the exact same thing, when they had nothing else to lose and called everyone involved in doping by name.

This is besides the fact that Cancellara is an obvious doper of course.
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10 Feb 2017 22:46

I don't think Dekker called everyone involved in doping by name.

Hamilton I don't know, but he's also said things like
"It's a lot cleaner than the dark days. They are still catching guys but I believe in Brad Wiggins and I believe we finally have a clean Tour de France champion and that's nice to see. (...)
I've always believed in Brad Wiggins, he's always been an advocate for anti-doping. I have no reason not to believe in Brad Wiggins."
http://www.skysports.com/cycling/news/12040/8289795/sky-sports-quizzes-tyler-hamilton-on-lance-armstrong-bradley-wiggins-and-tour-de-france-doping
And to be honest, "[Luigi] never handed me so much as an aspirin", as Hamilton claims in his book, that sounds like a bit of a joke when we see Luigi there on the photo pricking up Riis' arm, having his name on PED prescriptions, and ordering DHEA.
So there's that grain of salt again.
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10 Feb 2017 22:55

Really there's more of you now? Is someone linked to Fuentes by both Italian and Spanish police a clean Dr?
Hanged out everyone to dry ? I don't remember hearing anything on Ekimov.
What about Van De Velde was he in it ( I actually don't remember which is why I ask)
Heras? Azevedo? Jens Voight? Pena? Rubiera? Sastre? Sorensen? Jalabert? Sevilla? Pereiro? de Jongh?
I'm pretty sure they left out many names...
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11 Feb 2017 01:53

What's the big deal with needles in frickin' 1996? Can't a doctor draw some blood for an analysis?

I doubt Cecchini never gave PEDs to nobody, but I don't think you can just conveniently dismiss the testimony of so many largely unrelated people, some of whom have broken omertà.
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11 Feb 2017 06:12

In fairness it's just you and fmkrol making a big deal out of it.
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