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Power Data Estimates for the climbing stages

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16 Mar 2017 09:48

http://www.chronoswatts.com/news/113/

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Contador, déjà brillant deuxième derrière Porte au sommet du col de la Couillole (estimation de puissance à 6,2 w/kg et 425 watts étalon), a montré de grandes capacités de récupération le lendemain. Il ose une attaque à 50 km de l'arrivée dans la montée de Peille. J'ai estimé sa puissance moyenne à 6,85 w/kg et 467 watts étalon (+/- 4%) pour une durée de 15min48s.


Full retard season :eek:
User avatar LaFlorecita
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16 Mar 2017 09:53

I will be impressed when he actually manages that on a MTF for once.
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Re:

16 Mar 2017 20:27

LaFlorecita wrote:http://www.chronoswatts.com/news/113/

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These two tables demonstrate exactly the point I'm making.

Alex Simmons/RST wrote:
Netserk wrote:
Alex Simmons/RST wrote:
Netserk wrote:I know it's higher for lighter riders, but when it's used as a measuring stick, I think it makes better sense to use a standardized weight (like DrF).

That makes no sense if you are seeking to compare physiological performance with the same W/kg measuring stick. If not, then one stick has different increments than other.

When wanting to compare different riders on different climbs, making their performances more comparable is important, at least it is for me.

Even if it requires a lower W/kg, I think it's more impressive for an 80kg rider to climb Alpe d'Huez in 40' than it is for a 60kg rider.

I get why some prefer an as precise actual W/kg as possible, but I just want to know who is the better climber/who can climb the fastest.

The better climber is the one who climbs fastest. You need no more information than that.

If you convert each rider's ascent rate into W/kg for a "normalised" 70kg rider with a fixed set of assumptions then all that happens is the faster rider has a higher "normalised" W/kg value, which tells you precisely nothing more than simply knowing the ascent rate. The ranking order for ascent rate will be exactly the same as for W/kg.
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16 Mar 2017 20:33

And it also allows to make better comparison of the two climbs than without it. Of course context is needed, but knowing the different numbers for Porte and Quintana is valuable.
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Re:

17 Mar 2017 01:08

Netserk wrote:And it also allows to make better comparison of the two climbs than without it. Of course context is needed, but knowing the different numbers for Porte and Quintana is valuable.

All that matters is what they do in the same race at the same time.

This sort of comparison is a best pub chat fodder and certainly not "valuable".
User avatar Alex Simmons/RST
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17 Mar 2017 09:39

The forum is not unlike a virtual pub in a sense. I say this without a pejorative implication.

Despite the possible and impossible problems related to w/kg calculations, comparisons between climbs and riders, etc, I think they do have value and contribute positively. It is reasonable to be doubtful of performances (tirreno and PN) such as the ones that triggered the latest discussion above. The calculations tend to suggest so much, too.
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18 Mar 2017 20:28

Those numbers all seen very high. Basically higher than anything from last year, except just maybe for Quintana at Lagos de Covadonga?
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Re: Power Data Estimates for the climbing stages

18 Mar 2017 22:51

So it looks like Contador hasn't slowed down (from post-ban, not post-2009). Quintana and Porte not too surprising. Has Henao put out those kind of numbers in the past? Martin?
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24 Mar 2017 18:53

If we're to believe Jens Attacks, Bala was 6.6 W/kg for 24 minutes. That would have basically every rider in the top 10 be out of this world.

If that's even true, that in itself means either super fast times are the new drug and flavour of the season, or circumstances were super good
Kwibus wrote:So much quesions they have. Answers they will never get.
So why questions? If no answers?
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Re:

27 Mar 2017 21:24

Red Rick wrote:If we're to believe Jens Attacks, Bala was 6.6 W/kg for 24 minutes. That would have basically every rider in the top 10 be out of this world.

If that's even true, that in itself means either super fast times are the new drug and flavour of the season, or circumstances were super good

The riders sure do seem to go faster and faster. Im sure someone way smarter than me has numbers to back that up...

Jens also compared the performance to Vino on Cobortoria in 2006. Damn that was a fun Vuelta by the way.
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28 Mar 2017 17:17

I don't like the normalized numbers. The figures for doping actually come from the actual W/kg numbers. These could be misleading. That's how Greg Lemond got in trouble in the past with the numbers. LOL.

Quintana is right at 6 W/kg.
Porte is right at 6.2 W/kg.

These numbers for a similar workout tell me more. Not to mention if in the calculations for Quintana they took into account the drafting in most of the ascent. :confused:
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Re:

28 Mar 2017 20:03

Escarabajo wrote:I don't like the normalized numbers. The figures for doping actually come from the actual W/kg numbers. These could be misleading. That's how Greg Lemond got in trouble in the past with the numbers. LOL.

Quintana is right at 6 W/kg.
Porte is right at 6.2 W/kg.

These numbers for a similar workout tell me more. Not to mention if in the calculations for Quintana they took into account the drafting in most of the ascent. :confused:


Yes, Portoleau took drafting into account according to the Chronoswatts reference (113) :
Sa puissance moyenne estimée est de 6,2 w/kg en considérant qu'il était pendant 80% de temps abrité dans les roues pour profiter d'un léger « drafting » en côte à 22 km/h (30% de réduction des résistances aérodynamiques). La puissance étalon du « coureur témoin » de 78kg avec vélo se situe à 422 watts (+/- 3%).

Portoleau reduced the aero factor by 30% for the 80% fraction of the ascent during which Quintana was "drafting".
The 6.2 W/kg correspond to a 70 kg cyclist. As Quintana is considerably lighter, redoing the calculation with his actual weight would presumably increase that 6.2 figure to 6.3 or 6.4 W/kg. However, since the uncertainty is 3% according to Portoleau, we have 6.2=6.3=6.4 :)
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29 Mar 2017 13:32

Thanks Le Breton.

I am just not getting the power that you are getting that power is for a bigger person. Power should be smaller. I know he took into account drafting but in your calculation you are still using the normalized power instead of his actual power we should be smaller than 400 W. :)
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Re:

29 Mar 2017 17:27

Escarabajo wrote:Thanks Le Breton.

I am just not getting the power that you are getting that power is for a bigger person. Power should be smaller. I know he took into account drafting but in your calculation you are still using the normalized power instead of his actual power we should be smaller than 400 W. :)


SORRY MY MISTAKE.

I read the article too fast.
Portoleau calculated 354 watts for Quintana, and 6, 2 W/kg. He must have assumed his weight to be 57 kg as 354/57 = 6.2 W/kg.
In the table, top of this page, he also calculate the power a "Standard 70 kg racer" would have had to produce to keep up with Quintana . 422 watts, i.e 422/70 = 6.03 W/kg.

Out of topic : have you heard of the "Conquista de los Andes" planned in Perù in August? 7 stages to go from Pisco to Cuzco. Highest pass = 4740 m. Total elevation gain > 15 000 m. 750 km + or -. It's on Facebook.
Le breton
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29 Mar 2017 22:42

Ok. Much better. Thanks.

It is the first time I hear of that race. It sounds like a good race for altitude natives. :)
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Re:

12 Apr 2017 16:19

LaFlorecita wrote:http://www.chronoswatts.com/news/113/

Image
Image

Contador, déjà brillant deuxième derrière Porte au sommet du col de la Couillole (estimation de puissance à 6,2 w/kg et 425 watts étalon), a montré de grandes capacités de récupération le lendemain. Il ose une attaque à 50 km de l'arrivée dans la montée de Peille. J'ai estimé sa puissance moyenne à 6,85 w/kg et 467 watts étalon (+/- 4%) pour une durée de 15min48s.


Full retard season :eek:


The absolute watts a guy like Dumoulin or Gesink have to pull out to be able to keep up with Quintana is insane.
They have to do 450/460W to even stand a chance against Quintana who has to do 350. :lol:

I know w/kg is therefore the most important for efficiency and length for drag reasons. But a tall and slightly heavier rider basically should not stand a chance.
I wonder how Froome does it.
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13 Apr 2017 17:11

Well normalized or not, the formulas (either way) do tend to make outliers somewhat obvious. I tend to think of the w/kg measurements as blunt tools anyway, but they can be useful despite lack of nuance.
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Re: Re:

14 Apr 2017 23:28

Dekker_Tifosi wrote:
LaFlorecita wrote:http://www.chronoswatts.com/news/113/

Image
Image

Contador, déjà brillant deuxième derrière Porte au sommet du col de la Couillole (estimation de puissance à 6,2 w/kg et 425 watts étalon), a montré de grandes capacités de récupération le lendemain. Il ose une attaque à 50 km de l'arrivée dans la montée de Peille. J'ai estimé sa puissance moyenne à 6,85 w/kg et 467 watts étalon (+/- 4%) pour une durée de 15min48s.


Full retard season :eek:


The absolute watts a guy like Dumoulin or Gesink have to pull out to be able to keep up with Quintana is insane.
They have to do 450/460W to even stand a chance against Quintana who has to do 350. :lol:

I know w/kg is therefore the most important for efficiency and length for drag reasons. But a tall and slightly heavier rider basically should not stand a chance.
I wonder how Froome does it.

500 watts. Ask Ullrich!! :)
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15 Apr 2017 00:06

Since the TdF went back to pro team format in early 1960s, the average height and weight of those who are multiple winners* has been 1.79m and 69.4kg.

* Including Armstrong but not including Thevenet as I can't find his height and weight details.
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11 May 2017 17:18

Any data on the Etna ?
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