Log in:  

Register

Power Data Estimates for the climbing stages

The Clinic is the only place on Cyclingnews where you can discuss doping-related issues. Ask questions, discuss positives or improvements to procedures.

Moderators: Irondan, Eshnar, Red Rick, Pricey_sky, Tonton, King Boonen, Valv.Piti

21 Jul 2010 14:21

The Science of Sport wrote:Just feels like every post you make is either a show of superiority or a sniper attack, warranted or not. It's just bitter and nasty, imo. Just let it go. You have so much to contribute, but at various places, you get sarcastic, then superior, then boast about your writing ability. Why hijack the thread? Let's talk power numbers, are those values realistic or not? What does physiology say? There's so much value to be added through constructive debate, not destructive sarcasm.


Methinks you doth protesteth too much. My gentle tease pales in comparison to the sorts of anonymous attacks you frequently receive in response to your blog posts. Moreover, it's not like I haven't laid out my position and my thinking behind it regarding this question in considerable detail (some might say excrutiating detail) in a number of previous posts, none to which you deigned to respond. It's therefore only natural that I'm going to give you a little good-natured ribbing when you seemingly reverse course and adopt my position.
acoggan
Senior Member
 
Posts: 2,116
Joined: 18 Mar 2009 11:33

21 Jul 2010 14:22

tockit wrote:how do you convert these to w/kg?


:d :d :d :d :d :d :d :d :d :d
acoggan
Senior Member
 
Posts: 2,116
Joined: 18 Mar 2009 11:33

21 Jul 2010 15:02

tockit wrote:How do you convert these to w/kg?


Nice!!!!!! :D
acoggan
Senior Member
 
Posts: 2,116
Joined: 18 Mar 2009 11:33

21 Jul 2010 15:25

Big GMaC wrote:Nice dig at Vino there.

Name some names so we can analyse the same riders you are please!


Navarro and Tiralongo are doing some great mountain work. The Saxos look ****** when they're pulling in the mountains. And none of the other teams seem to be able to do it at all. Van den Broek is practically solo.
User avatar Animal
Member
 
Posts: 930
Joined: 19 Mar 2009 14:59

21 Jul 2010 15:57

Animal wrote:Navarro and Tiralongo are doing some great mountain work. The Saxos look ****** when they're pulling in the mountains. And none of the other teams seem to be able to do it at all. Van den Broek is practically solo.


Vdb has a lot of helpers with him, he just rides in front of them!

Also, maybe if it is cleaner we are seeing talented doms moved up as they aren't crowded out?

Not defending, just rephrasing
Joe Papp wrote:A friend told me Vino set-up a toilet paper manufacturing facility in his native country this spring, to produce "Vino Toilet Paper" for resale in the Central Asian market.

But there was a problem: it wouldn't take sh^t from anyone.
Big GMaC
Member
 
Posts: 1,594
Joined: 24 Nov 2009 21:07

21 Jul 2010 18:24

Could be. Maybe I'm too cynical. But I'm not going to start giving any of them the benefit of the doubt after all the cases I've seen over the years.
User avatar Animal
Member
 
Posts: 930
Joined: 19 Mar 2009 14:59

21 Jul 2010 21:11

The Science of Sport wrote: Cozy Beehive will beat me to it and probably do a better job than I can... - Ross


Ross, I'm not going to hijack your topic. Go ahead. Speak your mind. I am interested in finding out how altitude or wind had a role to play in these numbers. Would these men show the same figures at or close to sea level?
User avatar Cozy Beehive
Junior Member
 
Posts: 224
Joined: 05 Dec 2009 05:16

21 Jul 2010 21:46

I don't think we can conclude anything from the data available. The net VAM and/or w/kg of the contending group still, to me, seems highly related to the race situation. How tactical have climbs been, how strong have the teams been, how much has any team been "blue-train-ing" up earlier and final climbs in ways that affect the group speed?

-dB
dbrower
Member
 
Posts: 328
Joined: 01 Aug 2009 20:56

21 Jul 2010 21:56

Are there any actual files from the tour's (this years or others) out there? This would settle much of this "estimate" stuff and give people actual numbers. I would be interested to see Basso's climbing numbers of the tour verse the giro.
GreggGermer
Junior Member
 
Posts: 64
Joined: 11 Mar 2010 19:17
Location: Oudenaarde, Belgium

21 Jul 2010 23:36

Nice endorsement by Vaughters:

http://www.bikechatter.com/main/foruser/107/Vaughters

"http://www.sportsscientists.com/2010/07/power-outputs-from-tour-de-france.html? ... A good read if you're concerned about the Tour."



And Francaise des Jeux doctor Gérard Guillaume has been noting changes:

http://www.velonation.com/News/ID/4969/French-hail-cleaner-Tour-de-France-say-that-there-are-signs-of-less-doping.aspx



As does Juliet Macur at New York Times, citing Voeckler in part:

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/07/22/sports/cycling/22tourdefrance.html?ref=sports

:)


The Science of Sport wrote:Hi Folks

Interesting discussion. And seeing how I threw out that 6.2W/kg figure, I've also been interested in tracking the stats.

Unfortunately, we never see the real numbers from the top men, but we can get a lot of data off the SRM website (http://www.srm.de/). So here are some "facts":

1. Chris Horner:

On the short climb (3km) up to Mende the other, Horner finished 31 seconds behind Contador, having begun the climb with him. Horner's average power output for 10 minutes of climbing was 6.6 W/kg (422W). Nothing wrong with that, it's a really short effort.

For context, consider Horner on Ax-3-Domaines the other day. That climb took him just under 24 minutes, and his power output was 5.8 W/kg (370W). He conceded about 90 seconds to Schleck and Contador and co.

Then even longer was the climb of the Port de Pailheres, which took 48:37, and that was done at 5.4W/kg (344W). Of course, it's not a finishing climb, so the hammer isn't down, but it does reflect what the peloton is doing.

Edit: Also, Horner's data from the Port de Bales are interesting. He finished this day with Basso, conceding approx. 3 minutes to Contador's group by the finish (not 100% sure of the gap at the summit, but imagine it would be 3 min ± 20 seconds). This climb took 49:30, and was done at an average of 342W/kg (5.2W/kg - about the same as the Port de Pailheres of similar duration).

And then very interesting, we also have the data of Chris Anke Sorensen, who has been the last man to peel off for Andy Schleck. And on the Port de Bales, he rode at the front of the peloton for 21:34 and produced 6.1W/kg. The smaller Schleck, riding behind him, would produce less than this - perhaps 5.8W to 6.0W/kg, and that's a good indication of the power produced by those top contenders.

How much are those 90 seconds worth? Using the SRM to 'validate' your calculations, it might be interesting to calculate. Will have a look later, just have to sort out some things first. Cozy Beehive will beat me to it and probably do a better job than I can...

But I think the Tour is substantially slower. The days where climbs lasting 40 minutes or more were done at even just above 6W/kg WITH attacks are no longer with us...and never mind the 6.7W/kg that we've heard of, and know that guys were producing for close to 40 minutes.

On the note of Portoleau, I do feel that all he needs to do is give the times. He has this massive database and if you could show that they did Ax-3-Domaines 90 seconds slower than in previous years, that's compelling. Even with temperature and race situation, you'd have a tough time explaining that difference away entirely. And then the other thing to do is take the average time of the top 20, and positions say 50 to 60, to get an idea of depth. Almost certain it's a lot slower.

The other thing about the power, as Martin points out, is that in theory, if they rode one pace, they'd be faster. But I don't remember one paced riding too often. There are always attacks. Schleck-Contador was extreme the other day, but that's why it would be most interesting to look at the depth and quality.

You can see it in the racing, because as fierce as the attacks are, they're not doing the same damage as previous years, they're less frequent and interspersed with much slower riding, and the guy in the breakaway (Voeckler and Riblon) have held off.

Ross
User avatar Parrot23
Senior Member
 
Posts: 2,067
Joined: 11 Apr 2009 00:57

22 Jul 2010 02:17

Animal wrote: Van den Broek is practically solo.


Lotto having a crappy team in the mountains isn't exactly evidence of a clean peloton. It's evidence that you're watching the Tour de France.
mr.biggles
New Member
 
Posts: 28
Joined: 01 Aug 2009 19:24

22 Jul 2010 03:23

Anyone ready for John Wilcockson's speculation of Armstrong's power to weight ratio during his attack on stage 16?



On the Peyresourde, Sørensen was with his team leader Andy Schleck in a small group that went over the summit a minute behind Armstrong’s breakaway; so the Texan had to have been working even harder, perhaps hitting 6.5 watts/kg, equivalent to averaging 450 watts for the half-hour climb. And that was just the start of a near-six-hour stage over four mountains.

No wonder the peloton was ripped apart!



http://velonews.competitor.com/2010/07/tour-de-france/inside-the-tour-with-john-wilcockson-everyone-needed-a-rest-after-that-stage_130539
User avatar Cozy Beehive
Junior Member
 
Posts: 224
Joined: 05 Dec 2009 05:16

22 Jul 2010 05:06

Cozy Beehive wrote:Anyone ready for John Wilcockson's speculation of Armstrong's power to weight ratio during his attack on stage 16?



http://velonews.competitor.com/2010/07/tour-de-france/inside-the-tour-with-john-wilcockson-everyone-needed-a-rest-after-that-stage_130539


I didn't see Sorensen's power file yet, but I saw the screenshot of Horner's. 5.9 w/kg for 30 minutes in the front group, a minute down. Doing the math in my head, and without seeing the stage, I'd guess there's a 6.5 w/kg 5 minute section in there, with an overall of roughly 6.2 w/kg. For 30 minutes, that's certainly a lot, but doable, particularly on the first climb of the day.

It's a far cry from 6.7-6.9 for almost 50 minutes, that's for sure.
User avatar 131313
Member
 
Posts: 1,108
Joined: 18 Jun 2009 05:52

22 Jul 2010 19:42

Anyone want to stake a stab on Horner's power going up the Tourmalet? It would be interesting to see how close people can come before the data are online.

Based on his other efforts of the race, I'll say 340W, which is about 5.4 w/kg.
User avatar 131313
Member
 
Posts: 1,108
Joined: 18 Jun 2009 05:52

22 Jul 2010 20:18

Yes, would be interesting as he was close to the front: chance to compare a good baseline set of data vs. estimates near leaders.
User avatar Parrot23
Senior Member
 
Posts: 2,067
Joined: 11 Apr 2009 00:57

22 Jul 2010 20:27

Parrot23 wrote:Yes, would be interesting as he was close to the front: chance to compare a good baseline set of data vs. estimates near leaders.


well, already knowing Horner's power data throughout the race, it makes this question way easier to answer. Still, I'm curious how the models compare to reality. That, of course, is assuming that his SRM is calibrated.
User avatar 131313
Member
 
Posts: 1,108
Joined: 18 Jun 2009 05:52

22 Jul 2010 20:34

VAM, anyone?

Here's a profile.
djconnel
Junior Member
 
Posts: 168
Joined: 21 May 2009 22:24
Location: San Francisco, CA

22 Jul 2010 21:07

the VAM for today?
I timed andy and contador at about 49minutes.
and they climed 1405 meters.
that's a VAM of 1720
DarkWing
Junior Member
 
Posts: 82
Joined: 08 Jul 2009 08:47

22 Jul 2010 21:22

Okay.... then some quick assumptions:

mass = 65 km
bike = 7 kg
equipment = 2 kg
total = 74 kg
Crr = 0.3%
CdA = 0.35 m²
rho = 1.1 kg/m³
distance = 19 km
net climbing: 1404 meters
time = 49 minutes
drivetrain efficiency = 98%

6.35 W/kg powertap
6.48 W/kg SRM


Compare with L'Alpe d'Huez VAM numbers according to Science of Sport blog
Image

And "Bjarne Riis is estimated to have produced 6.8W/kg (480W) on Hautacam when he won the Tour in 1996. Armstrong's estimated power output on Alp d'Huez was 6.6 W/kg (465W)..

No sign of special sauce.
djconnel
Junior Member
 
Posts: 168
Joined: 21 May 2009 22:24
Location: San Francisco, CA

22 Jul 2010 21:27

From the look of the flags, there was a tailwind for at least some of it.

Regardless, some people had a very good day after the rest day (Horner) and others not so good (Leipheimer).
smaryka
Junior Member
 
Posts: 58
Joined: 10 Jun 2010 14:54

PreviousNext

Return to The Clinic

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Alpe73, papisimo98 and 25 guests

Back to top