Log in:  

Register

Science in sport

The Clinic is the only place on Cyclingnews where you can discuss doping-related issues. Ask questions, discuss positives or improvements to procedures.

Moderators: Irondan, Eshnar, Red Rick, Valv.Piti, Tonton, Pricey_sky, King Boonen

Science in sport

28 Jul 2010 00:33

A number of times in this forum this website http://www.sportsscientists.com/2010/07/power-outputs-from-tour-de-france.html has been used to demonstrate GT winners for some time are doping, and their articles about this tour suggest that things are much cleaner...thoughts anyone?
karlboss
Senior Member
 
Posts: 2,656
Joined: 13 Mar 2009 18:40

28 Jul 2010 01:03

karlboss wrote:A number of times in this forum this website http://www.sportsscientists.com/2010/07/power-outputs-from-tour-de-france.html has been used to demonstrate GT winners for some time are doping, and their articles about this tour suggest that things are much cleaner...thoughts anyone?


Ross Tucker is a semi-regular and is a welcome addition and contributor to the more scientific dialogs. I don't possess the scientific or technical background to opine on the veracity of his positions, but based on the lively debate that others enjoy with him, I can't help but believe he moves the discussions forward.

Ed Coyle's opinion may differ, however.
[SIZE="2"]"Whoever still can't put one and one together about what happened in cycling is beyond my help."
Jan Ullrich[/SIZE]
User avatar MacRoadie
Senior Member
 
Posts: 3,045
Joined: 03 Aug 2009 00:59
Location: Southern California

28 Jul 2010 03:03

MacRoadie wrote:Ross Tucker is a semi-regular and is a welcome addition and contributor to the more scientific dialogs. I don't possess the scientific or technical background to opine on the veracity of his positions, but based on the lively debate that others enjoy with him, I can't help but believe he moves the discussions forward.

Ed Coyle's opinion may differ, however.


+1 and if they think it looks cleaner then I really hope they are right.
"Science flies us to the moon. Religion flies us into buildings."

Gods don't kill people, people with Gods kill people.
User avatar Hugh Januss
Veteran
 
Posts: 6,626
Joined: 09 Jul 2009 00:33
Location: socal

28 Jul 2010 03:36

I hope that this year's race is cleaner. I only really suspect one performance, but sadly, the unexplained drop in performance of a few others makes me question the past.

I figure there would be three reasons why this Tour would be cleaner. One was WADA/AMA monitoring the UCI process the whole way. I imagine the actual report will look a lot like the 2003 one, where WADA found a lot wrong and the UCI argued all the points.
Another aid would be intense scrutiny by AFLD, who could request targeted tests to WADA and those would be carried out with the UCI inspectors not knowing who the target was until the last minute. There was also the OCLAESP keeping a close eye on things. The Landis revelations are the third part. The police have a better idea of what to look for, especially in blood or doping products being delivered to the riders, and Ashenden and the Bio Passport guys realize how they've been fooled by consistent values in the past, and that EPO is used during the race.

Sadly, two of those three vanish now that the French race is over. I expect guys to look really strong at the Vuelta.

The scientific comparisons are interesting, but there's too much guess work for me to take it seriously. If it was done in a lab environment, they'd know the exact weight of the bike, and the water bottles (two full ones would make a difference), the rider's actual weight at the time of performance (up with solid food and beverages, down with dehydration). Even if you know the exact weight of a rider, his kit and shoes at the start of a stage, it doesn't mean he'll weigh that a hundred miles in, at the base of a climb. Still, it's fun to glance at now and again. Cyclismag does it too. I think they just posted one about Andy Schleck, but I didn't click through and translate.
User avatar theswordsman
Senior Member
 
Posts: 2,189
Joined: 14 Feb 2010 19:04

get down to it

28 Jul 2010 07:12

theswordsman wrote:.............

The scientific comparisons are interesting, but there's too much guess work for me to take it seriously. If it was done in a lab environment, they'd know the exact weight of the bike, and the water bottles (two full ones would make a difference), the rider's actual weight at the time of performance (up with solid food and beverages, down with dehydration). Even if you know the exact weight of a rider, his kit and shoes at the start of a stage, it doesn't mean he'll weigh that a hundred miles in, at the base of a climb. Still, it's fun to glance at now and again. Cyclismag does it too. I think they just posted one about Andy Schleck, but I didn't click through and translate.


You post started well but the last paragraph above shows that you have not tried to understand the methods of "calculators".

I am not saying that all calculations are equal, but a few of them are made by people who take the job seriously., like Frédéric Portoleau at cyclismag.com (the man behind Antoinr Vayer), and a few others.

The fact that you bring in the exact weight of the rider as an argument shows that you don't understand the problem, but anybody who can write as well as you do is obviously intellectually capable of mastering the concepts involved. So, why don't you try and get down to it : learn and calculate for yourself. It's not complicated, high school level really.

Schelk : 5 min at 480 Watts ( i.e 6.85 watts/kg) at top of Port de Balès after his chain incident.
Le breton
Member
 
Posts: 1,364
Joined: 10 Nov 2009 20:23
Location: switzerland

28 Jul 2010 08:09

karlboss wrote:A number of times in this forum this website http://www.sportsscientists.com/2010/07/power-outputs-from-tour-de-france.html has been used to demonstrate GT winners for some time are doping, and their articles about this tour suggest that things are much cleaner...thoughts anyone?


Tucker (and others like him) offers a very useful alternative to the he-said she-said disputes about what direct evidence there is of doping. One can quarrel with this or that assumption, and with the details of the calculations and so forth, but the picture that emerges is fairly clear - during 1996-2006 there were performances, in the Tour de France in particular, that are not easily reconciled with what we know about the normal physiology of extremely talented cyclists, and which compared with the performances last year, and particularly this year, appear so radically superior as to require an explanation better than Armstrong/Ullrich/Beloki/Basso/Riis were just tremendously more gifted and better trained than Contador/Schleck/Menchov/Sanchez/Armstrong/Basso.
Paco_P
Member
 
Posts: 319
Joined: 19 Jul 2010 15:38

28 Jul 2010 09:20

theswordsman wrote:Another aid would be intense scrutiny by AFLD, who could request targeted tests to WADA and those would be carried out with the UCI inspectors not knowing who the target was until the last minute. There was also the OCLAESP keeping a close eye on things. The Landis revelations are the third part. The police have a better idea of what to look for...


Theoretically, it should be possible to keep a close eye on the comings and goings at team hotels.

There are hundreds of police drafted into an area hosting a Tour stage. The overtime payments, and logistics of feeding and housing them must be huge, but ASO seem to organize it somehow.

They should be billeted in team hotels, and on the alert for strange deliveries and disposals, unscheduled meetings etc.
User avatar Animal
Member
 
Posts: 929
Joined: 19 Mar 2009 14:59

29 Jul 2010 23:47

and here I was thinking there would be a cry of nothing is cleaning up, the powermeters aren't calibrated correctly and VAM doesn't count for anything, etc...the response seems to be things are cleaner...nothing to see here.
karlboss
Senior Member
 
Posts: 2,656
Joined: 13 Mar 2009 18:40

30 Jul 2010 00:28

karlboss wrote:and here I was thinking there would be a cry of nothing is cleaning up, the powermeters aren't calibrated correctly and VAM doesn't count for anything, etc...the response seems to be things are cleaner...nothing to see here.


I'd disagree with the way you phrase that but agree with the sentiment

The SIS guys are superb and their analysis generally exceptional, what it also shows is that there people out in the big wide world really paying attention to what's going on at a purely scientific level. That in turn helps us to understand clearly what the numbers suggest. It backs up the hypothesis.
I'm in shape...Round is a shape
Unashamed Contador Fanboy

http://www.justcycling.myfastforum.org
User avatar Siriuscat
Member
 
Posts: 749
Joined: 24 May 2010 21:39
Location: North East Scotland

23 May 2017 12:43

A SPORTS nutrition firm has signed a deal to work with Cycling Australia through to the 2020 Olympic and Paralympic games in Tokyo.

The agreement with Nelson-based Science in Sport will run for four years and will see bespoke nutritional strategies to fuel the country’s world-class athletes.

The comes after the company teamed up in January with British Cycling in a similar deal.

Since it was established in 1992, the business has worked with a variety of Olympian and world champion athletes, including Sir Chris Hoy and Mark Cavendish.

It also supplies heptathlon athlete Katarina Johnson-Thompson, Team Sky, USA Cycling and Liverpool Football Club
Deets
User avatar fmk_RoI
Member
 
Posts: 1,498
Joined: 16 Sep 2010 07:31

23 May 2017 17:10

I m wondering whether this agreement has anything to do with Simon Jones being the new Boss of Australian Track Cycling.
yaco
Senior Member
 
Posts: 2,360
Joined: 20 Jun 2015 17:57

Re:

23 May 2017 18:20

yaco wrote:I m wondering whether this agreement has anything to do with Simon Jones being the new Boss of Australian Track Cycling.
I'm wondering why you're so fixated on that job and can't resist any opportunity to turn the conversation toward it. Suggestion: start a thread.
User avatar fmk_RoI
Member
 
Posts: 1,498
Joined: 16 Sep 2010 07:31

Re:

23 May 2017 18:43

fmk_RoI wrote:
A SPORTS nutrition firm has signed a deal to work with Cycling Australia through to the 2020 Olympic and Paralympic games in Tokyo.

The agreement with Nelson-based Science in Sport will run for four years and will see bespoke nutritional strategies to fuel the country’s world-class athletes.

The comes after the company teamed up in January with British Cycling in a similar deal.

Since it was established in 1992, the business has worked with a variety of Olympian and world champion athletes, including Sir Chris Hoy and Mark Cavendish.

It also supplies heptathlon athlete Katarina Johnson-Thompson, Team Sky, USA Cycling and Liverpool Football Club
Deets


I'm not exactly sure what to think about this. Time will tell I suppose.
The poster formerly known as yespatterns.
User avatar GraftPunk
Junior Member
 
Posts: 290
Joined: 21 Feb 2017 21:15
Location: High Desert Steppe

Re: Re:

23 May 2017 22:18

GraftPunk wrote:
fmk_RoI wrote:
A SPORTS nutrition firm has signed a deal to work with Cycling Australia through to the 2020 Olympic and Paralympic games in Tokyo.

The agreement with Nelson-based Science in Sport will run for four years and will see bespoke nutritional strategies to fuel the country’s world-class athletes.

The comes after the company teamed up in January with British Cycling in a similar deal.

Since it was established in 1992, the business has worked with a variety of Olympian and world champion athletes, including Sir Chris Hoy and Mark Cavendish.

It also supplies heptathlon athlete Katarina Johnson-Thompson, Team Sky, USA Cycling and Liverpool Football Club
Deets


I'm not exactly sure what to think about this. Time will tell I suppose.



I'm not sure what this northern England based sports nutrition company has to do with the website referenced in the OP either.
simoni
Member
 
Posts: 364
Joined: 11 Mar 2010 20:45


Return to The Clinic

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Saint Unix, Yahoo [Bot] and 10 guests

Back to top