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RE: transgender women racing against women.

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Re: Re:

21 Oct 2018 22:45

avanti wrote:
King Boonen wrote:As I said, trans woman is fine if there is a need to differentiate in the discussion.

I chose size as the easiest metric as people can see it. Yes, there are plenty of other factors and these will also vary greatly across the sexes. It’s not about whether trans athletes have an advantage, it’s about whether that advantage is greater than the advantages other pro women have.


I once read that women are at a diadvantage to men as runners because of their hip-joint configuration. Could this also apply to female cyclists?



Interesting question, don't know the answer to it. However, women's hips do change if they've ever been pregnant and more so if they've given birth (naturally vs C-section).
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Re: RE: transgender women racing against women.

02 Nov 2018 11:44

Another news article was posted yesterday on Cyclingnews regarding the original post.

USA Cycling, UCI address questions on transgender women and fair competition

Participation without discrimination is a focus for sport governing bodies
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/usa-cycling-uci-address-questions-on-transgender-women-and-fair-competition/
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15 Nov 2018 05:31

Trans always have the slight advantage that testosterone offers. Look at Semanya, she's dominating her field too. So yes, there should be a law for this
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Re:

18 Nov 2018 22:37

FootyG wrote:Trans always have the slight advantage that testosterone offers. Look at Semanya, she's dominating her field too. So yes, there should be a law for this

It usually helps to know what you’re talking about before you post.
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Re: RE: transgender women racing against women.

17 Feb 2019 22:22

Martina Navratilova criticised over 'cheating' trans women comments

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2019/feb/17/martina-navratilova-criticised-over-cheating-trans-women-comments

-0-

allowing transgender women to compete in women’s sporting tournaments was “insane and cheating”.

“You can’t just proclaim yourself a female and be able to compete against women. There must be some standards, and having a penis and competing as a woman would not fit that standard.”

“To put the argument at its most basic: a man can decide to be female, take hormones if required by whatever sporting organisation is concerned, win everything in sight and perhaps earn a small fortune, and then reverse his decision and go back to making babies if he so desires.

-0-

3 arrow splitting bull's-eyes!

-0-!-0-

"Transphobic" is simply a label used in order to enable their agenda. However, I believe people are not "phobic" to transgender athletes; people simply think they should compete amongst themselves.
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Re: Re:

17 Feb 2019 23:09

King Boonen wrote:
rick james wrote:
King Boonen wrote:Mod hat on:

Hi all, this a very emotive discussion for many and we are aware there will be strong opinions. We're going to let the thread stay as we think it's a topic worth discussion but we are going to keep a very close eye on it. Any transphobic comments may result in a very long, if not permanent ban. Transgender women are women and so use of male pro-nouns is transphobia. Do not do it. Repeatedly stating you opinion when someone posts actual facts or research for discussion without taking this into account is trolling.

Cheers,

KB.



that's lies


No, it isn't. The terms man and woman in this case are based on gender which is a social construct. You are thinking of a persons sex.


Seems to me that the issue is paradoxical. Men have a competitive advantage over women in most sports on the basis of biology not identity.
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Re: Re:

19 Feb 2019 11:11

macbindle wrote:
King Boonen wrote:
rick james wrote:
King Boonen wrote:Mod hat on:

Hi all, this a very emotive discussion for many and we are aware there will be strong opinions. We're going to let the thread stay as we think it's a topic worth discussion but we are going to keep a very close eye on it. Any transphobic comments may result in a very long, if not permanent ban. Transgender women are women and so use of male pro-nouns is transphobia. Do not do it. Repeatedly stating you opinion when someone posts actual facts or research for discussion without taking this into account is trolling.

Cheers,

KB.



that's lies


No, it isn't. The terms man and woman in this case are based on gender which is a social construct. You are thinking of a persons sex.


Seems to me that the issue is paradoxical. Men have a competitive advantage over women in most sports on the basis of biology not identity.


You'll have to expand on this. Are you saying you think trans-women are men? Do you know what is currently required from someone who is born male to compete as female and what affect these requirements will have on their body?
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19 Feb 2019 11:56

I think a trans-woman is a trans-woman. Is she the same as cis women? I'm undecided. I'm fully aware of the debate and the theories around gender. I'm also aware of the violent nature of the debate and the real violence from which trans people suffer.

With regards to sport, yes, I am aware of the rules regarding trans women competing in sport as women and the effect this has on their bodies. However, I'm also aware that trans women may benefit from male physiology that lasts beyond their treatment and I can well understand why cis female athletes feel this is unfair.

I don't think the issues around trans people, identity and gender are at all resolved, actually, which is why I'm not accepting anybody telling me what a trans woman/man is, or isn't, from either side, however angrily they state it, and whatever accusatory epithets they may choose to apply to me. That said, I'm happy to call anybody by their preferred pronoun. It makes no difference to me. Fairness in sport is another matter, and as I said it is the biology that is crucial not the identity.
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Re:

19 Feb 2019 14:54

macbindle wrote:I think a trans-woman is a trans-woman. Is she the same as cis women? I'm undecided. I'm fully aware of the debate and the theories around gender. I'm also aware of the violent nature of the debate and the real violence from which trans people suffer.

With regards to sport, yes, I am aware of the rules regarding trans women competing in sport as women and the effect this has on their bodies. However, I'm also aware that trans women may benefit from male physiology that lasts beyond their treatment and I can well understand why cis female athletes feel this is unfair.

I don't think the issues around trans people, identity and gender are at all resolved, actually, which is why I'm not accepting anybody telling me what a trans woman/man is, or isn't, from either side, however angrily they state it, and whatever accusatory epithets they may choose to apply to me. That said, I'm happy to call anybody by their preferred pronoun. It makes no difference to me. Fairness in sport is another matter, and as I said it is the biology that is crucial not the identity.


Do you have any evidence to support this? Words like "may" and "feel" don't help.

As for the discussion about trans-people, it's really not for this thread (and probably not for this forum to be honest). I can send you lots of good videos on the subject if you really want.

That said, I'm happy to call anybody by their preferred pronoun. It makes no difference to me.
This is an example of meta-physical skepticism and it's not really good position to hold (it used to be my position).
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19 Feb 2019 15:09

Ive really tried to read up on the whole transgender debate in recent weeks because I'm trying to get my head around it. I'm fully conversant with notions of gender as social construct, but there is something nagging about the nature of identity and gender that I can't quite put my finger on. Fully aware of the TERF wars too. I have a long time acquaintance on another cycling forum who is a trans woman and I've kept abreast of the developments over quite a few years (No pun intended). I had a real world teenage contact who transitioned, then reverted about 6 years later. So none of this stuff is new to me. I suppose the sport issue crystallizes my awareness that this is not something I've resolved in my own head.

I'm not sure I agree with you on my 'metaphysically sceptical' position. I don't see a pragmatic alternative, and frankly if I decided that I didn't consider trans-woman as women it would be a view I would keep to myself for fear of causing harm to people who are already in a difficult position. I can live with nuance and contradiction.

With regards to potential advantages that a post-puberty trans woman may have I can cite one very obvious unequivocal example...height.

There are others such as muscle mass and bone density, but I'd have to hunt around for some citations.

I think it is worth mentioning that there doesn't seem to be any controversy surrounding trans men having an unfair advantage when participating in male sports. I don't need to explain the implications of this to you, I'm sure.
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Re:

22 Feb 2019 09:24

macbindle wrote:Ive really tried to read up on the whole transgender debate in recent weeks because I'm trying to get my head around it. I'm fully conversant with notions of gender as social construct, but there is something nagging about the nature of identity and gender that I can't quite put my finger on. Fully aware of the TERF wars too. I have a long time acquaintance on another cycling forum who is a trans woman and I've kept abreast of the developments over quite a few years (No pun intended). I had a real world teenage contact who transitioned, then reverted about 6 years later. So none of this stuff is new to me. I suppose the sport issue crystallizes my awareness that this is not something I've resolved in my own head.

I'm not sure I agree with you on my 'metaphysically sceptical' position. I don't see a pragmatic alternative, and frankly if I decided that I didn't consider trans-woman as women it would be a view I would keep to myself for fear of causing harm to people who are already in a difficult position. I can live with nuance and contradiction.

With regards to potential advantages that a post-puberty trans woman may have I can cite one very obvious unequivocal example...height.

There are others such as muscle mass and bone density, but I'd have to hunt around for some citations.

I think it is worth mentioning that there doesn't seem to be any controversy surrounding trans men having an unfair advantage when participating in male sports. I don't need to explain the implications of this to you, I'm sure.


If height is an advantage why are tall men allowed to compete against shorter men in sport? Or tall women against shorter women? Is it always an advantage? We divide combat sports on phenotype, maybe we should stop any man more than 2 inches above average height playing basketball to make it fair to the general population? Or have separate leagues for different heights?

Is height always an advantage? Vandenbergh's palmares would suggest not. Doesn't seem very unequivocal to me.

As for muscle mass and bone density, do these stay the same when a trans woman has been on HRT? Every trans woman I've heard talk about this says the first thing they lose is muscle mass and it's very hard to keep it on. Again, these things are distributed across a population and there are only a very small number of sports where maximum muscle mass is beneficial.

You'll need to explain what you think the implications are for trans men competing.

The division along genotypic lines is pretty arbitrary. Where it's felt to be important within sports, the division is almost always along phenotypic lines, namely combat sports, light-weight rowing, disability sports etc.


There's also the fact that this is basically a non-issue. There are a tiny number of trans-women competing in sports at the moment and none of them are winning non-age group world titles or even competing with the best cis-gendered women in the world. There are much bigger issues in women's sport that, if people really cared about them, they could invest their time in solving.


Sorry for not replying to the rest of your post, it's really a discussion for the cafe. Happy to continue that there if you want to? It is all related, the fact that the pill has only existed for about 70 years and prior to this female biology has had a massive social impact in terms of gender roles has clearly affected women's sport. This continues to this day and is evidenced by some of the, frankly, disgusting comments you see posted about women who dare to develop some muscle mass, even on this very forum. This is why I generally avoid talking about these things with random people on the internet.
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22 Feb 2019 09:40

Yes, it's a lightning rod subject for all sorts of misogyny, homophobia, fear, loathing and hatred, I agree...on all sides actually. It is not a calm debate. All sides feel threatened in some way.

Couple of points, it's a non-issue at the moment, but it trans politics progresses on its current trajectory it will be an issue.

Secondly, with regards to your point about height, If we take it to its logical endpoint then there would be no justification for separating male and female sports at all.
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22 Feb 2019 11:22

Yep, I follow people on both sides of the discussion on Twitter and, while I obviously agree with one side more than the other, neither side comes off looking great. It's not a medium for discussion, it's just a platform to announce things (and with the current trend of blocking anyone with a different point of view, it seems to be generally preaching to the choir. It's a pretty damning condemnation of discourse in the modern world to be honest).


It will only become an issue if trans athletes start winning Olympic medals. That is a very, very long way off and while I can understand people starting a discussion now, the level of bile and hatred being thrown around shows that this is more than just sport. There are many things that need sorting out in women's sport that are currently an issue, we should really be focussing on that.


That's possibly the logical conclusion as women's sport progresses, or switching to a division on phenotypic lines. We are talking about the extremes of the population and I believe the gaps between mens and women's world records are narrowing so it isn't inconceivable but it's not going to happen overnight. Again, social factors have a huge impact here. The comments about Serena Williams' physique show that society still views women in a specific way and tries to impose things on them. This all needs to change, and it's possible it can't. Women's biology has dictated their social status for a very long time and to some extent it always will unless reproduction is moved ex-vivo in the future.
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22 Feb 2019 11:49

I only look at Twitter via links, and then usually regret it. The prismatic effect of social media 'because you watched' algorithms means that exposure to arguments becomes polar, with the effect that people think that the polar view is 'what everyone is saying' leading to their own views becoming entrenched, and therefore more aggressively defended.
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01 Mar 2019 02:52

Women’s sports may one day soon consist entirely of men

The only piece of research done on transgender women competing in women’s sports had a sample size of eight people
Rod Liddle

Congratulations to Terry Miller and Andraya Yearwood for sweeping all before them in the Connecticut girls’ high school track races last week. Yes, of course they are men. There were some anguished complaints from the various girls these two speedy lads defeated, but these were of course brushed aside in a country where women’s sporting events may one day soon consist entirely of men.

Already a Democratic party representative, Ilhan Omar of Minnesota, is insisting that the US powerlifting tournaments allow transgender women to compete, so that people who look very much like Geoff Capes, and have the same chromosomes as Geoff Capes, and the same bone structure and musculature, can compete against women. Meanwhile, the fastest female college sprinter in the US is CeCe Telfer, who, once again, is not what you or I or science would call a lady, and one of the world champions in women’s cycling is a chap called Rachel McKinnon, whom I have mentioned here before.

Writing in the Sunday Times of London, Martina Navratilova described it as ‘insane’ and ‘cheating’ that men who have transitioned should be allowed to compete against women, adding that ‘hundreds’ of trans athletes have ‘achieved honors as women which were beyond their capabilities as men’. The former tennis star added that few people were prepared to speak up about this issue because of the furore that would immediately descend upon them from the perpetually enraged trans lobby. Indeed, within a few hours of her article being published she was booted off the advisory board of a gay advocacy group and was being denounced left, right and center in the kind of furiously screeched terms that have become the hallmark of these perhaps not wholly balanced campaigners.

Those who support the rights of transgender women to compete in women’s sports often cite the only piece of research done on the issue which ‘proves’ that it is a myth that transgender women have an advantage over normal women. This study was published in 2015 and is cited every time the issue arises — but I have one or two problems with it, to tell you the truth. First, it concerned a total of just eight athletes, which is a smallish sample (no control group, either). Second, it was not carried out by a qualified geneticist or social scientist, but by a ‘medical physicist’ by the name of Joanna Harper. And third, Joanna Harper, once an athlete herself, was, um, how can I put this, not always called Joanna. She was raised as a boy and transitioned to being a fairly fast lady in her thirties. So she has skin in the game and we might surmise that she, or he, set out to prove a thesis, rather than, in good Popperian practice, trying to disprove it.

But none of these caveats cuts the remotest ice with the lobby groups or indeed the liberal media, who quote from her survey as if it were on a par with the work of Crick and Watson. And meanwhile, blokes keep winning everything. Sometimes they are blokes who have had some becoming breasts appended to them and put on a bit of lippy, sometimes they are blokes who seemingly make no effort at all to disguise the fact that they are blokes.

The question, then, is this: will women’s sports cease to exist before or after we’ve closed down Frankenstein’s castle, i.e. the Tavistock clinic’s gender identity development service? The Tavistock is an extremely well endowed, so to speak, institution in London and every year somewhere in the region of 2,000 children are referred to this service, a substantial number of whom go on to be interfered with chemically or surgically, and transferred from one sex to another.

An internal report on this god-awful place by Dr David Bell suggested that it was ‘not fit for purpose’ and that decisions were taken to transition young people without taking into account social and personal factors, such as whether they had suffered a bereavement or abuse.

I will bet there’s a whole bunch of other factors they don’t take into account as well, such as peer pressure at school, other underlying mental health issues, unhelpful interventions from parents or social workers, and a repulsive propaganda program which surrounds them at all times telling them how wonderful it is to transition.

Anyway, following Bell’s report a senior governor at the hospital, Marcus Evans, has resigned. Evans, who practices the pseudoscience of psychoanalysis, has said that decisions to transition the poor kids are taken ‘too quickly’. He added: ‘There is pressure from the child who is in a distressed state, there is pressure from the family and the peer group and from the pro-trans lobbies — and all of this puts pressure on the clinician who may want to help the individual to resolve their distressed state by going along with a quick solution.’ No kidding. The point being that these are largely adolescent children who are trying to come to terms with their own sexuality: it’s a confusing time.

The trans lobby doesn’t recognize any of this stuff, mind: if a kid, no matter how old he or she might be, wishes to change sex, then it should be allowed to do so. It is remarkable and a little chilling how all of those concerned with the wellbeing of our children — the government, the teachers, the doctors, the counsellors, the social workers, the Tavistock and in many cases even the parents — have bought into the extremist views of a pressure group which, at the very least, we might describe as ‘troubled’. But then, I suppose that they dare not.

My guess is that we will look back on this period of experimentation on our children with horror and deeply regret the day we decided that kids should be allowed to be shunted into whatever ghetto of victimization they so desire, given that our society today seems to value victimhood above all else. In the meantime, shouldn’t the Tavistock’s gender clinic be closed down?

This article was originally published in The Spectator magazine.
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01 Mar 2019 06:53

I'm afraid I didn't get past the words 'Rod Liddle'.
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02 Mar 2019 19:38

Grizzly Bear Shatters All Pro Wrestling Records After Identifying As Human

STAMFORD, CT—The pro wrestling world was rocked last week when a new challenger arrived on the WWE circuit weighing in at 890 pounds, possessing 10-inch claws, and the strength to crush bones into gelatin. “He calls himself ‘the Grizzly’ and he is unlike any other wrestler anyone in the WWE has ever come up against,” said wrestler Seth Rollins from his hospital bed after a brief run-in with the massive opponent. What makes the Grizzly so unique? He is a trans-grizzly bear; the man recently decided to identify as human after being born an Alaskan grizzly bear. Along with his new identity, he has embraced his dream of becoming a champion human pro wrestler.

“The Grizzly has stated that his preferred pronouns are he/him/human and so we are going to respect that,” said A.J. Styles, wincing in pain as doctors attempted to realign his spine — another victim of the Grizzly’s punishment.

The Grizzly has torn apart his competition, sometimes literally. There are few remaining wrestlers left who are even willing to attempt a match against him. “He’ll be our star wrestler by, oh I’d say around seven thirty tonight when he gets the championship belt,” said WWE owner Vince McMahon.

“It’s really inspiring to see someone embrace their true self and find victory, not only in the sport they love, but over their own issues with identity,” said wrestler Randy Orton just before going in to have both of his shattered legs amputated. “Good on him."
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02 Mar 2019 20:09

Yawn.
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Re:

02 Mar 2019 21:16

King Boonen wrote:It will only become an issue if trans athletes start winning Olympic medals


Olympic gold medallist Caster Semenya says it already is an issue. The science says hormone replacement therapy does not correct the residual advantages trans gender athletes have over athletes who are born female. As mentioned above, Martina Navratilova recently came out to mention this. It is fair to ban trans gender athletes from competing against born females? Probably not. But is isn't fair to let them compete against women who were born that way. Some things in life are not fair. That is just how it is.
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