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RE: transgender women racing against women.

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Re:

11 Mar 2019 17:37

King Boonen wrote:The site is now working again!

I would like to think that, if I'm attracted to someone I'd date them. I can't honestly say what would happen but I'm also under no illusion that what I think should dictate anything in this discussion, same as you. There are many cis-gender women I have met who I wouldn't date, that doesn't mean they are not women. This was even covered in It's Always Sunny in Philadelphia.


It won't dictate the discussion, but it does provide some information and it does help clarify thoughts.

I can't see the relevance of unattractive cis women, because I'm assuming you didn't not date them because you thought they were men. It was some other quality that rendered them unattractive.

I think Paris Lees is very beautiful but something very visceral, which i suspect is my sexuality, would prevent me from dating her, because truly I don't believe she is a woman, even though for her sake I wish I did. Of course I'm not saying my sexual preferences should determine how somebody feels about themself, or indeed what pronouns I use, but I'm not going to ignore my feelings entirely. That seems to me to be intellectually dishonest.

I've no idea what It's Always Sunny in Philadelphia is, and so therefore cannot tell you whether this topic is covered to my satisfaction.
(Warning: Posts may contain traces of irony)
User avatar macbindle
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13 Mar 2019 18:23

This thread seems to be drifting off a topic worthy of serious debate. Okay I was wrong on Semenya but that does not mean it is right that trans gender athletes be able to compete against females due to political correctness.

The definition of what constitutes a male or female nearly every person on the planet understands and should not need to be spelled out. This thread concerns trans gender. Trans gender means the person was born a female but has undergone medical procedures supplemented by hormone treatment so a born male can live their lives as a female. What is required in this thread is more debate on whether trans gender women have a physical advantage competing in sport against women who were born as women?

What does science say? I have read that there are scientific studies that show this is the case. Long after the person has made the switch, hormone treatments don't reverse the residual strength advantages the athlete has from them being born male. This is what Martina Navratilova claimed and of course was slammed due to the usual political correctness, oh you can't say that!

Testosterone levels are not the only determinant of male physical strength advantage. There are residual benefits in strength long after testosterone is adjusted back to female levels. An analogy is doping with testosterone or blood doping which can enable a cyclist to train harder and recover than if they were clean. When the big race arrives the doping is stopped to avoid detection but the physical benefits remain. This seems similar to trans gender.

My attitude to this subject is simple. Is it fair to prevent trans gender women competing against born females? No. But life wasn't meant to be fair. That just the way it is. Fair competition for the overwhelming majority should be placed ahead of what is deemed fair for a small minority.
Cookster15
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Re:

14 Mar 2019 14:15

Cookster15 wrote:This thread seems to be drifting off a topic worthy of serious debate. Okay I was wrong on Semenya but that does not mean it is right that trans gender athletes be able to compete against females due to political correctness.

The definition of what constitutes a male or female nearly every person on the planet understands and should not need to be spelled out.


If it's so easy then spell it out. Show how it's easy to split the population into male or female and give your definition. It must be really easy...

This thread concerns trans gender. Trans gender means the person was born a female but has undergone medical procedures supplemented by hormone treatment so a born male can live their lives as a female. What is required in this thread is more debate on whether trans gender women have a physical advantage competing in sport against women who were born as women?


Whether debate is required is part of the discussion. See the next bit.

What does science say? I have read that there are scientific studies that show this is the case. Long after the person has made the switch, hormone treatments don't reverse the residual strength advantages the athlete has from them being born male. This is what Martina Navratilova claimed and of course was slammed due to the usual political correctness, oh you can't say that!


Please post links to these studies. Please define "residual strength advantages".

Navratilova was slammed for being transphobic. Raising this as if there is an urgent need for a discussion is transphobic. Since Trans athletes have been able to compete in the Olympics there have been approximately 54,000 Olympic athletes. 0 of these athletes have been transgender. Does that seem like a crisis that needs urgent discussion? Or does it seem like a complete non-issue? If it's a non-issue why do you think people are pushing so hard to try and limit trans-rights in this area? Personally I think it's a perfect example of "the thin end of the wedge". Transphobes find a cause that they can get people behind, limit rights here and then push for further limiting of rights. That's exactly what is happening, just look at the discussions around trans-women in female only spaces. The more this debate is made legitimate the more likely it is that trans people will experience hate.


Testosterone levels are not the only determinant of male physical strength advantage. There are residual benefits in strength long after testosterone is adjusted back to female levels. An analogy is doping with testosterone or blood doping which can enable a cyclist to train harder and recover than if they were clean. When the big race arrives the doping is stopped to avoid detection but the physical benefits remain. This seems similar to trans gender.


Those two things are not equivalent. An understanding of basic biochemistry will tell you that. One is a consistent suppression below the individuals natural levels, the other is a transient increase with a return to natural levels. Please post the studies that prove this is the case.

If this is purely about the science then you can highlight the problems you have with the evidence used to back up the IOC's rules for transgender inclusion. I'm not an endocrinologist but I've got a fairly decent understanding so feel free to be specific.

My attitude to this subject is simple. Is it fair to prevent trans gender women competing against born females? No. But life wasn't meant to be fair. That just the way it is. Fair competition for the overwhelming majority should be placed ahead of what is deemed fair for a small minority.


Please define fair competition. Differences across the "male" and "female" population are much bigger than differences between those population means. Is this fair? It's already understood that world level athletes are the top tiny fraction of a percent. Should these people be excluded? They are only part of the "overwhelming majority" by the terms you set out. Change that slightly and suddenly they are a tiny minority.

The Olympic charter defines the right to compete in sport as a human right. Are you comfortable with limiting peoples human rights?


I just want to repeat this section because I think it's incredibly important:

"Since Trans athletes have been able to compete in the Olympics there have been approximately 54,000 Olympic athletes. 0 of these athletes have been transgender. Does that seem like a crisis that needs urgent discussion? Or does it seem like a complete non-issue? If it's a non-issue why do you think people are pushing so hard to try and limit trans-rights in this area? Personally I think it's a perfect example of "the thin end of the wedge". Transphobes find a cause that they can get people behind, limit rights here and then push for further limiting of rights. That's exactly what is happening, just look at the discussions around trans-women in female only spaces. The more this debate is made legitimate the more likely it is that trans people will experience hate."
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