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RE: transgender women racing against women.

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RE: transgender women racing against women.

17 Oct 2018 11:27

How do people and specifically cyclists feel about this?

There is a news article on Cycling News about a transgender woman racing against women.

"McKinnon is first transgender woman to win world title

Canadian wins women's 35-44 sprint at UCI Masters Track Worlds in Los Angeles"

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/mckinnon-is-first-transgender-woman-to-win-world-title/ with photos.

The photos are disturbing, in My opinion, exposing the reality of the situation.

My thoughts are that while it's important to give people who think differently than Myself room to live as they wish, this situation is unacceptable. I have less interest in women's cycling and something like this will diminish that further. For those who think this is ok but not quite ok, perhaps there could be a race category for transgender people.

It seems as though comments are allowed at Cyclingnews.com but not for this particular news article.
User avatar The GCW
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Re: RE: transgender women (MEN) racing against women.

17 Oct 2018 13:17

The GCW wrote:How do people and specifically cyclists feel about this?

There is a news article on Cycling News about a transgender woman (a MAN) racing against women.

"McKinnon is first transgender woman to win world title

Canadian wins women's 35-44 sprint at UCI Masters Track Worlds in Los Angeles"

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/mckinnon-is-first-transgender-woman-to-win-world-title/ with photos.

The photos are disturbing, in My opinion, exposing the reality of the situation.

My thoughts are that while it's important to give people who think differently than Myself room to live as they wish, this situation is unacceptable. I have less interest in women's cycling and something like this will diminish that further. For those who think this is ok but not quite ok, perhaps there could be a race category for transgender people.

It seems as though comments are allowed at Cyclingnews.com but not for this particular news article.


Its an interesting topic and certainly worthy of debate.....alas i fear political correctness will always stifle said debate.

Of course there's the social aspect, and we're way beyond the point of debating a persons right to choose to live their life under whatever gender they feel is right for them....but when it comes to sport, specifically those which always have and likely always will have separate categories for men and women, then i think its clear to all that a transgender Athlete has a physical history and retains certain attributes that means a true level playing field is just not realistic.

Youu cant tell transgender athletes they cant compete. Clearly forcing someone to compete in the opposite category to their assigned gender isn't going to work and i cant imagine there ever being enough transgender athletes around to make a standalone category in a minority sport like cycling a realistic prospect.

I have no idea what the answer is.
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17 Oct 2018 18:44

It is a good thing to allow people to make whatever decision they wish to that is not detrimental to others, but the detrimental effect of that choice on others should be mitigated. Allowing transwomen to compete in female sport does seriously disadvantage born-female competitors: McKinnon makes a big issue about restrictions on the testosterone level that she must maintain below below the usual level for females, but that does not reverse the difference in musculature and build.

Every choice we make has consequences, and precludes other possibilities. A transperson knows that their choice will make a number of things impossible: becoming a parent (naturally), ordination within many religious communities, and others that will not have occurred to me because I am not involved in that life.

And in my opinion, unless and until there is a specific category, that needs to include competitive sport. Every accommodation should be made for recreational sport, and participation in amateur events, which are not primarily about results, could be open, but entry to competitive sport is not an essential human right, and privation of this should be acknowledged as a consequence of the transitioning decision.

I don't know whether the event McKinnon has won is of professional status, but what is to happen when professional sport becomes involved, and major national, regional or world titles are at stake?
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18 Oct 2018 10:44

the worst part of this issue is that you cant even say a thing about how absurd this situation is,suuuuuure there is no athletic advantage...yep yep

i guess once a really popular female sport gets affected (like say tennis) where millions of dollars are on the line,thats where some of these girls will say something or maybe when transgender women are allowed to compete in MMA or box and they wreck some poor girl

then the next step will be articialy enhanced humans fighting for their rights to compete with normal humans - no athletic advantage here,just a rights issue ...yep yep

i already feel sorry for all the girls who will lose money,medals or endorsments over this in future
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18 Oct 2018 11:42

Mod hat on:

Hi all, this a very emotive discussion for many and we are aware there will be strong opinions. We're going to let the thread stay as we think it's a topic worth discussion but we are going to keep a very close eye on it. Any transphobic comments may result in a very long, if not permanent ban. Transgender women are women and so use of male pro-nouns is transphobia. Do not do it. Repeatedly stating you opinion when someone posts actual facts or research for discussion without taking this into account is trolling.

Cheers,

KB.
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Re:

18 Oct 2018 14:58

King Boonen wrote:Mod hat on:

Hi all, this a very emotive discussion for many and we are aware there will be strong opinions. We're going to let the thread stay as we think it's a topic worth discussion but we are going to keep a very close eye on it. Any transphobic comments may result in a very long, if not permanent ban. Transgender women are women and so use of male pro-nouns is transphobia. Do not do it. Repeatedly stating you opinion when someone posts actual facts or research for discussion without taking this into account is trolling.

Cheers,

KB.

If that's the true, than there shouldn't be this thread/discussion even permitted cause she'd won fair and square. If there is a discussion/polemic about this result/race allowed than it is in direct (logical) conflict with such statement.
Not trying to pry or get this thread deleted or anything... just seems illogical to have a polemic about woman winning women race. I'm not disagreeing with this statement (trans women are women) at all. Just wonder how should we title such ladies when discussing their (plausible) medical/biological/etc advantages over "born women".
Shut up, Jens!
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Re: Re:

18 Oct 2018 15:24

glassmoon wrote:
King Boonen wrote:Mod hat on:

Hi all, this a very emotive discussion for many and we are aware there will be strong opinions. We're going to let the thread stay as we think it's a topic worth discussion but we are going to keep a very close eye on it. Any transphobic comments may result in a very long, if not permanent ban. Transgender women are women and so use of male pro-nouns is transphobia. Do not do it. Repeatedly stating you opinion when someone posts actual facts or research for discussion without taking this into account is trolling.

Cheers,

KB.

If that's the true, than there shouldn't be this thread/discussion even permitted cause she'd won fair and square. If there is a discussion/polemic about this result/race allowed than it is in direct (logical) conflict with such statement.
Not trying to pry or get this thread deleted or anything... just seems illogical to have a polemic about woman winning women race.


Not really. If you are of the opinion that trans women are more likely to retain muscle mass and bone density after transitioning then you can say and discuss that. I think the current research says otherwise but I haven't dug deep enough. If you are of the opinion that they are more likely to be in the top bracket of women genetically disposed to cycling (because all pros have genetics that make them better than the average rider) and this tips the balance in their favour then you can discuss that.

The point is we are not going to have a thread for people to make snide, derogatory, transphobic comments, whatever their opinion is. The misunderstanding of genetics and the difference between gender and sex makes this a very tricky area to discuss.

The definition of man and woman is a social construct and very hard to define when it comes to sport. Should those who are genetically pre-disposed to higher muscle mass be banned (think Robert Förstemann)? What about those who were born smaller and so perform better in the mountains, like Joaquim Rodríguez? Should we have a DNA profiling and certain mutations make you ineligible for competition? (Starting to sound like an X-Men film).

To add some context, of the two women Rachel beat, one was fine with it and one complained. The one who complained has raced Rachel 12 times, and beaten her 10.
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Re: Re:

18 Oct 2018 15:30

glassmoon wrote:Just wonder how should we title such ladies when discussing their (plausible) medical/biological/etc advantages over "born women".


How about women?

My girlfriend is of a very small build, there are women who are literally twice as big as her or more who compete in sports. If you were to compare them they would still both be women wouldn't they? You'd just likely say one is much bigger than the other. If you have to distinguish then trans women seems fine. I'm pretty sure that's the term Rachel used in the Velonews podcast I listened. to.
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18 Oct 2018 15:36

I figured this thread would be started soon after reading that article. I think my biggest question is what advantages (besides testosterone) does a trans person naturally have over female born athletes....definitely an interesting time for sports. I think cycling might be solved easier than a sport like football (NFL)....
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Re:

18 Oct 2018 16:01

Jspear wrote:I figured this thread would be started soon after reading that article. I think my biggest question is what advantages (besides testosterone) does a trans person naturally have over female born athletes....definitely an interesting time for sports. I think cycling might be solved easier than a sport like football (NFL)....


They do not have a testosterone advantage. Mainly because recent research Bermon and Garnier has shown that endogenous testosterone does not impart an advantage (out of 2000 elite athletes tested at a World Championship track and field event 1/6th of the male competitors have testosterone levels in or below the expected range for women and no relationship between endogenous testosterone and performance was found) but also because research has shown that if you lower someones endogenous testosterone their performance goes down. Rachel has published her testosterone data showing that the levels are close to the limit of detection and far below the range expected in women.


There may be other advantages, but then all athletes have genetic advantages. It's a really tricky area to work around if you want to control for one group but not another...
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Re: Re:

18 Oct 2018 16:28

King Boonen wrote:
Jspear wrote:I figured this thread would be started soon after reading that article. I think my biggest question is what advantages (besides testosterone) does a trans person naturally have over female born athletes....definitely an interesting time for sports. I think cycling might be solved easier than a sport like football (NFL)....


They do not have a testosterone advantage. Mainly because recent research Bermon and Garnier has shown that endogenous testosterone does not impart an advantage (out of 2000 elite athletes tested at a World Championship track and field event 1/6th of the male competitors have testosterone levels in or below the expected range for women and no relationship between endogenous testosterone and performance was found) but also because research has shown that if you lower someones endogenous testosterone their performance goes down. Rachel has published her testosterone data showing that the levels are close to the limit of detection and far below the range expected in women.


There may be other advantages, but then all athletes have genetic advantages. It's a really tricky area to work around if you want to control for one group but not another...


I totally worded that wrong. I know they don’t. I meant besides that (which we know they can block and regulate), I wonder what advantages they might have. It’s not about control just for the sake of discriminating or for any other negative reason. We are talking about individuals that once were biologically male. Naturally speaking the great majority of males perform at a higher level in many sports, cycling being one of them. It’s not too crazy to look deep into this subject and control it to a certain extent.
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Re: Re:

18 Oct 2018 16:34

King Boonen wrote:
Jspear wrote:I figured this thread would be started soon after reading that article. I think my biggest question is what advantages (besides testosterone) does a trans person naturally have over female born athletes....definitely an interesting time for sports. I think cycling might be solved easier than a sport like football (NFL)....


They do not have a testosterone advantage. Mainly because recent research Bermon and Garnier has shown that endogenous testosterone does not impart an advantage (out of 2000 elite athletes tested at a World Championship track and field event 1/6th of the male competitors have testosterone levels in or below the expected range for women and no relationship between endogenous testosterone and performance was found) but also because research has shown that if you lower someones endogenous testosterone their performance goes down. Rachel has published her testosterone data showing that the levels are close to the limit of detection and far below the range expected in women.


There may be other advantages, but then all athletes have genetic advantages. It's a really tricky area to work around if you want to control for one group but not another...


So endogenous testosterone doesn’t impart an advantage but if you lower this endogenous testosterone your performance goes down?
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Re:

18 Oct 2018 16:38

saganftw wrote:the worst part of this issue is that you cant even say a thing about how absurd this situation is,suuuuuure there is no athletic advantage...yep yep

i guess once a really popular female sport gets affected (like say tennis) where millions of dollars are on the line,thats where some of these girls will say something or maybe when transgender women are allowed to compete in MMA or box and they wreck some poor girl

then the next step will be articialy enhanced humans fighting for their rights to compete with normal humans - no athletic advantage here,just a rights issue ...yep yep

i already feel sorry for all the girls who will lose money,medals or endorsments over this in future



I hear ya.. I think in this overly political correct world we live in, it will take a group of female cyclists to lose a lot of money before it becomes headline news. I don't foresee that happening
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18 Oct 2018 17:13

@King Boonen, reading it seems some cleaning up needs to be done in the Winter Sports threads... some reprehensible comments there. I wonder, is there any sense in reporting the posts in question even if they were made months ago?
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Re: Re:

18 Oct 2018 18:40

King Boonen wrote:
glassmoon wrote:Just wonder how should we title such ladies when discussing their (plausible) medical/biological/etc advantages over "born women".


How about women?

My girlfriend is of a very small build, there are women who are literally twice as big as her or more who compete in sports. If you were to compare them they would still both be women wouldn't they? You'd just likely say one is much bigger than the other. If you have to distinguish then trans women seems fine. I'm pretty sure that's the term Rachel used in the Velonews podcast I listened. to.

That exactly was my point. A woman won a women race... so why exactly there is a discussion/polemic needed? And logically if there is a discussion/polemic needed then is there a woman and a ... "woman"?
I've no prob calling the trans-women women but then there is no point even in having such articles (1st trans-woman won... etc) - so is there a point to empathize the "trans-woman is a woman" if for having such articles one has to pointing out that she is the 1st trans-woman to win...? Then calling them trans-women seems perfectly normal, logical and should not cause any confusion or trouble.
And to be clear it (medical/biological adv) was not about the size. They are clearly other aspects to human body than the size, hence this clearly arises a need for debate/polemic around the world. Even among scientists.
Shut up, Jens!
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18 Oct 2018 18:54

As I said, trans woman is fine if there is a need to differentiate in the discussion.

I chose size as the easiest metric as people can see it. Yes, there are plenty of other factors and these will also vary greatly across the sexes. It’s not about whether trans athletes have an advantage, it’s about whether that advantage is greater than the advantages other pro women have.
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18 Oct 2018 19:03

I don't see how you could argue that women and trans women are biologically the same and will not perform different in sports

I don't see how it's fair cis women that trans women can compete if they have a biological advantage, which I'm pretty sure they do.

I feel like we're only waiting for a trans woman to dominate a really big mainstream sport before **** really hits the fan with this discussion
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Re:

18 Oct 2018 20:09

kingjr wrote:@King Boonen, reading it seems some cleaning up needs to be done in the Winter Sports threads... some reprehensible comments there. I wonder, is there any sense in reporting the posts in question even if they were made months ago?


Hi, yes you can report them. I’m thinking I can guess what they are, or the gist.
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Re: RE: transgender women racing against women.

18 Oct 2018 22:47

Is testosterone a banned substance when used in cycling?

If a person is born with a penis and lives a life with male testosterone but later in life takes drugs to lower testosterone would that still have a created advantage in the same way it is thought when a cyclist takes a banned substance and is caught, pays the 2 year penalty (or what ever) they still retain benefits from their use of banned substances for a number of years into the future. More so and less so with different substances.

If a man lifts weights with man levels of testosterone and increases muscle mass and associated implications but then takes drugs to get into a different category which allows them to compete in an area they were unauthorized previously... You get the point?

Further, does this racer or any other racer, referred to as transgender women have a penis? As I understand it some do and some don't.

You either have one of these or one of those; is it possible for a transgender woman with a penis to race against women with a vagina?

Am I mistaken?

So this man's biological passport has been manipulated in order to race down? Am I incorrect for leaning this way when regarding the issue and believing the whole thing is a mess and tweaked?
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Re:

19 Oct 2018 02:35

King Boonen wrote:As I said, trans woman is fine if there is a need to differentiate in the discussion.

I chose size as the easiest metric as people can see it. Yes, there are plenty of other factors and these will also vary greatly across the sexes. It’s not about whether trans athletes have an advantage, it’s about whether that advantage is greater than the advantages other pro women have.


I once read that women are at a diadvantage to men as runners because of their hip-joint configuration. Could this also apply to female cyclists?
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