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30 Jul 2017 00:52

Well, as I mentioned before, they didn't even call him in to work out, and just up and signed David Olson, after previously signing Dustin Vaughn, neither have played a snap in the NFL. Vaughn mostly playing on practice squads, and Olson from the Champions Indoor Football league. So if the Ravens - arguably the most likely team to be interested in him - won't even work him out, and instead signs Olson this quickly, it just cements to me that Kaepernick has essentially been blacklisted, he's done.
User avatar Alpe d'Huez
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Re: National Football League

30 Jul 2017 02:42

on3m@n@rmy wrote:With Flacco #1 and Mallet #2 let's not forget Kap first has to make the roster before we talk about playing. :D

Somebody better knock some sense into the Ravens and sign Kap ASAP. Mallett throws FIVE picks in a scrimmage yesterday! What a a joke. Even Suggs couldn't couldn't help from throwing a wisecrack:

"Linebacker Terrell Suggs yelled to offensive coordinator Marty Mornhinweg, “Hey, Marty, tell Mallett to throw to the guys wearing the purple jerseys [the offense].”

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2017/07/28/ryan-mallett-has-int-meltdown-at-practice/

There are so many stiff back-ups in the league and Kap gets blackballed because of his political views...go figure.
Nomad
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Re: National Football League

30 Jul 2017 03:52

:lol: Now that's a hoot. "Throw to the guys in purple".
User avatar on3m@n@rmy
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Re: National Football League

30 Jul 2017 15:02

Seth Wickersham should make this sit-down interview with Richard Sherman a lesson on how to conduct journalism.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=cEPE9-nKmRo
Yeah, great interview. Just sit and talk with a guy rather than write about rumors, what a concept!
User avatar on3m@n@rmy
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31 Jul 2017 04:00

Here's a detailed analysis that concludes Kaepernick is better than Flacco, let alone the Ravens' backups:

11 quarterbacks have thrown at least 2,000 passes since the beginning of the 2013 season.

Only one quarterback averaged fewer than 7.04 yards per attempt, Joe Flacco at 6.66. Only one had a touchdown percentage lower than 4.4, Joe Flacco at 3.6...only Eli Manning threw interceptions more often than Flacco. Only Philip Rivers had a worse win-loss record.


Over the past two seasons, Kaepernick and Flacco have both suffered major, season-ending injuries while playing for multiple coordinators with limited supporting casts. Kaepernick has thrown touchdowns more often, interceptions less often and averaged significantly more yards per attempt than Flacco over the past two years. He has done that while also adding in 643 more rushing yards.


[Flacco] threw 56.87 percent of his passes within five yards of the line of scrimmage last year.

Only Sam Bradford threw passes short at a higher rate. Flacco was almost 10 percent above the league average. Because he was throwing the ball to slants, curls and checkdowns behind the line of scrimmage rather than repeatedly trying to hit post routes between two defenders 20 yards downfield, Flacco’s 64.9 completion percentage is not actually impressive.

Furthermore, Flacco had the eighth-best failed reception rate last year. He lost a completion on an accurate pass once every 17.23 attempts.

Playing with receivers who aren’t dropping the ball and throwing the ball short almost 60 percent of the time means you should have a bloated completion percentage...


A massive 55.12 percent of Kaepernick’s passes travelled past the five-yard line...The depth of Kaepernick’s throws wasn’t the only reason he had a lower completion percentage last year. While Flacco lost a reception to receiver error once every 17 attempts, Kaepernick lost one once every 8.49 attempts. Nobody in the league lost completions on accurate passes because of receiver error as often as the San Francisco 49ers quarterback did.


[Flacco] threw an interceptable pass once every 21.68 attempts last year. 4.61 percent of his passes were opportunities for defenders to catch the ball. 21 quarterbacks in the league were better at avoiding those plays. Kaepernick was one of them. In fact, Kaepernick threw an interceptable pass once every 47.29 attempts, the second best ratio in the league.


The criticisms of Kaepernick are outdated. He used to run out of clean pockets, stare down his first read and panic if he had to hold the ball in the pocket. That’s no longer who he is.

In 2016, Kaepernick showed off an ability to make subtle movements in the pocket while keeping his eyes up to diagnose coverages downfield. He showed off poise and precision with his movement in the pocket, he got off his first reads in a timely manner and kept his eyes up at all times. He developed an ability to throw from the left flat, something he never had as a rookie, and made better decisions both in terms of attacking coverages and picking his spots for when to scramble.


One of these players has performed competently in a run-first, deep shot offense where he lined up under center in heavy packages all the time to execute different handoffs. One of these players has performed competently in a shotgun-heavy offense that spread the field and required that he get rid of the ball quickly. One of these players offers an explosive, wide skill set that he plays to consistently. One of these players was still showing signs of growth when he was last on the field.

The other is trapped in the midst of a Matt Schaub impression and will start for the Baltimore Ravens in Week 1.


http://presnapreads.com/2017/07/30/colin-kaepernick-is-better-than-joe-flacco/
Merckx index
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Re:

31 Jul 2017 07:31

Merckx index wrote:Here's a detailed analysis that concludes Kaepernick is better than Flacco, let alone the Ravens' backups:

http://presnapreads.com/2017/07/30/colin-kaepernick-is-better-than-joe-flacco/


Now that is an interesting post. I actually never thought that Flacco was that bad and who was Flacco's opposite number in his Super Bowl victory ? Sure on a much better team then but has Kaep regressed to the point where he isn't employable even as a back up ?
Last edited by Alpe d'Huez on 31 Jul 2017 12:32, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: brevity in quote
movingtarget
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Re: Re:

31 Jul 2017 12:29

movingtarget wrote:
Merckx index wrote:Here's a detailed analysis that concludes Kaepernick is better than Flacco, let alone the Ravens' backups:

http://presnapreads.com/2017/07/30/colin-kaepernick-is-better-than-joe-flacco/


Now that is an interesting post. I actually never thought that Flacco was that bad and who was Flacco's opposite number in his Super Bowl victory ? Sure on a much better team then but has Kaep regressed to the point where he isn't employable even as a back up ?

I disagree that Kap is better than Flacco. The stats don't always tell the whole story and people put too much emphasis on it at times. For one, Flacco is a Super Bowl winner & SB MVP. Winning a SB & also being the MVP will keep a QB around for a while. Secondly, the QB ratings for Flacco & Kap are nominal (Kap - 85/Flacco - 83).

However, the bigger and more important stat that wasn't mentioned, IMO, is 4th quarter comebacks & game winning drives. This really defines a QB when the chips are down and why they're paid such big bucks. Though Flacco has a few more years on Kap, he blows him away in this stat:

Flacco: 19 Fourth Quarter Comebacks, 26 Game-Winning Drives.

Kaepernick: 9 Fourth Quarter Comebacks, 9 Game-Winning Drives.

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/leaders/gwd_active.htm
Last edited by Alpe d'Huez on 31 Jul 2017 12:33, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: brevity in quote
Nomad
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Re: Re:

31 Jul 2017 12:50

Nomad wrote:I disagree that Kap is better than Flacco. The stats don't always tell the whole story and people put too much emphasis on it at times. For one, Flacco is a Super Bowl winner & SB MVP. Winning a SB & also being the MVP will keep a QB around for a while.


One of the major points of the article is that Flacco is being kept around based on what he did in the past, which is no longer relevant to what he can do in the future. And of course, winning a SB isn't proof that a QB is particularly good. There have been some mediocre QBs who have won SB, and some great ones who haven't.

Secondly, the QB ratings for Flacco & Kap are nominal (Kap - 85/Flacco - 83).


The problems with the QB efficiency rating are well known, and alluded to in the article. That said, I don't know that I agree with the author that Kaep is clearly better than Flacco, but I think he has a good argument that Kaep is about as good as Flacco, not really worse.

However, the bigger and more important stat that wasn't mentioned, IMO, is 4th quarter comebacks & game winning drives. This really defines a QB when the chips are down and why they're paid such big bucks. Though Flacco has a few more years on Kap, he blows him away in this stat:

Flacco: 19 Fourth Quarter Comebacks, 26 Game-Winning Drives.

Kaepernick: 9 Fourth Quarter Comebacks, 9 Game-Winning Drives.


A few more years? He's played twice as many games. Per games played, they're basically even in 4th quarter comebacks. Not that I put a lot of faith in that stat. Show me a QB who makes a 4th quarter comeback, and I'll show you a QB who probably didn't do his job the first three quarters. If you want to cite a stat like that, you need to know how many times a QB was trailing in the fourth quarter.

The bottom line for me, though, is if there's a decent argument that Kaep is as good as or better than Flacco, he should certainly be good enough to be his backup. I assume John H. must have talked to his brother, who drafted Kaepernick and turned him into a (temporary) star. It's hard for me to believe that Jim didn't strongly recommend Kaep; after all, any success Kaep has makes Jim look good.
Merckx index
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Re: Re:

31 Jul 2017 13:10

Merckx index wrote:
Nomad wrote:I disagree that Kap is better than Flacco. The stats don't always tell the whole story and people put too much emphasis on it at times. For one, Flacco is a Super Bowl winner & SB MVP. Winning a SB & also being the MVP will keep a QB around for a while.


One of the major points of the article is that Flacco is being kept around based on what he did in the past, which is no longer relevant to what he can do in the future. And of course, winning a SB isn't proof that a QB is particularly good. There have been some mediocre QBs who have won SB, and some great ones who haven't.

Secondly, the QB ratings for Flacco & Kap are nominal (Kap - 85/Flacco - 83).


The problems with the QB efficiency rating are well known, and alluded to in the article. That said, I don't know that I agree with the author that Kaep is clearly better than Flacco, but I think he has a good argument that Kaep is about as good as Flacco, not really worse.

However, the bigger and more important stat that wasn't mentioned, IMO, is 4th quarter comebacks & game winning drives. This really defines a QB when the chips are down and why they're paid such big bucks. Though Flacco has a few more years on Kap, he blows him away in this stat:

Flacco: 19 Fourth Quarter Comebacks, 26 Game-Winning Drives.

Kaepernick: 9 Fourth Quarter Comebacks, 9 Game-Winning Drives.


A few more years? He's played twice as many games. Per games played, they're basically even in 4th quarter comebacks. Not that I put a lot of faith in that stat. Show me a QB who makes a 4th quarter comeback, and I'll show you a QB who probably didn't do his job the first three quarters. If you want to cite a stat like that, you need to know how many times a QB was trailing in the fourth quarter.

What? You can't be serious...did you even look at the link? Brady, Brees, Manning (Eli), Big Ben - 1, 2, 3 (Manning & Big Ben tied) for active QBs!

So, you want to tell those icons that they didn't do their jobs in the first three quarters? Lol...I'm outta here.
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31 Jul 2017 13:28

i do think the US has an ilogical attitude to 4th quarter performances.

people literally seem to think that the last 15 minutes is worth more than the first 45.

As such someone who wins by scoring 30 points in the 4th quarter but 10 in the first 3 is seen as way better than someone who scored 10 in every quarter.

even though the result is the same
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Re: Re:

31 Jul 2017 14:42

movingtarget wrote:
Merckx index wrote:Here's a detailed analysis that concludes Kaepernick is better than Flacco, let alone the Ravens' backups:

http://presnapreads.com/2017/07/30/colin-kaepernick-is-better-than-joe-flacco/


Now that is an interesting post. I actually never thought that Flacco was that bad and who was Flacco's opposite number in his Super Bowl victory ? Sure on a much better team then but has Kaep regressed to the point where he isn't employable even as a back up ?

The author of that post is a 25YO journalst named Cian Fehey. From the short research I did on him, I could not find anything that would give him credentials as a football mind, who actually knew what he was talking about or looking at in film. But here is one thing I found on reddit from a former co-worker:
Cian and I were both members of #DraftTwitter, which sounds way more impressive than it actually is. It basically just means you're inside a think tank of people on twitter who scout NFL draft prospects and tweet about them.

Cian, to his credit, turned that into his scouting website and now appearances on the show. I'm @ASwaim3 on Twitter; I suppose it's still there, but I've been off Twitter a while with big boy responsibilities.

I never had an opinion of Cian until I heard the show, actually. We've exchanged tons of tweets before, but nothing noteworthy comes to mind. I don't blame Cian for this, because it's an inherent flaw with draft twitter--no one ever admits they're wrong.

Cian watches tape, and he's damn smart at what to to look for. But, I think it's in everyone's best interest to know--everything Cian is viewing on film is predisposed to his own opinion, unlike Pro Football Focus for the most part.

For instance, Cian was brutally critical of Derek Carr and Carson Wentz on Wednesday, and Jameis in weeks before that. It should behoove everyone to know, he was one of the most outspoken anti-Carr guys before the 2014 draft, go look it up. Criticized his accuracy, his college offense being all screens, and his inability to handle pressure. Was also Mariota over Jameis, and Goff over Wentz. So, essentially, he hasn't changed his opinion on any of these QBs since they entered the league. Mostly because he watches tape with confirmation bias in mind. I just find it absurd that with 3 years in the bank in some cases, your evaluations haven't changed an ounce, that's poor scouting, and it's disingenuous scouting.

Theres more to it on reddit if you google it.
I am skeptical of young relatively unknown journalists trying to make a living.
Edit... and this:
Never liked him after he proclaimed to the world Brady was no longer top 5 after 2013, then he spent the first four weeks of 2014 yucking it up before retreating when Brady went back to being Brady.
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31 Jul 2017 15:39

Good detective work there, on3m@n@rmy.

I generally agree with Hitch on the 4Q/Game winning drive stat. For example, Eli Manning is 3rd on that list, and Aaron Rodgers is 13th, tied with Andy Dalton. No one in their right mind would say either Eli or Andy are a better, or even equal QB to Rodgers. Also, late game comebacks do generate a level of intensity, but even with Rodgers relatively low number of 4Q and game winning drives, just about anyone who has watched his career would say he's had as many pressure packed, clutch throws as anyone in the NFL. For whatever the reason, the number of late wins just didn't follow. Stats like that are really hard to put into NFL numbers, because football is such a integrated team sport. This is why Phil Simms for example said a kicker feels much more pressure than a QB late in the game. The kicker is much more isolated. As such, kicker stats are much easier to compare.

Having said that, if I were to start a draft today, of today's players, I'd still take Flacco over Kaep. I just think there's more stability there at the position, a better foundation to work with.

However, I still believe the only reason Kaepernick hasn't gotten any serious offers or even phone calls at this point has little to do with his ability, and nearly all to do with politics. He's more than capable of being a backup QB in the NFL on the right team. His mobile style may not fit every team out there, but he could work into several without much of an issue. Plus, as I said before, if he were on your team going into camp as the #2 guy, your offense would start working at least a little now on the differences between having your starter in there, and him. Every team does that to some degree. Not every team has a back-up whose style is a mirror of the starter.

Finally, Steve Biscotti is the owner of the Ravens, and has a reputation as a straight arrow who completely supports his players, and has a generally hands-off management style (opposite of Dan Snyder or Jerry Jones for example). He openly stated the team wasn't done looking at Kap, but also that there were non-football factors the team was taking into consideration. Refreshing to hear his thoughts.

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2017/07/30/ravens-owner-admits-to-considering-non-football-factors-with-kaepernick/
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31 Jul 2017 18:50

Good to read Biscotti's thoughts.

While there I also saw this:

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2017/07/31/report-chargers-tell-rivers-gates-not-to-go-to-tomlinson-ceremony/

That's some great morale building! :(
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31 Jul 2017 20:37

Seriously? Vets like this can't afford to miss a Saturday afternoon practice in early August? Really?

If you ask me, the Chargers may have some talent this year, but they are in a lousy situation being quickly shoved to Los Angeles like they were. Get out of San Diego as quick as they could, before management was all tarred and feathered. Then, playing at StubHub Center, which, if it were a college stadium, there would be a whopping 47 NCAA teams playing in bigger stadiums next season. StubHub barely holds 30,000 people.

Though I have to wonder after the curiosity shows up, just how many people are going to attend a Chargers game anyway? Also, a quick look at the 2017 schedule, there will be three games this season where the Rams and Chargers play at the same time … on the same day, at home. Granted, it's a Sunday, but that's a lot of football for a city that just over a year ago had none. The stadiums are just 12 miles apart. It won't be a Monday morning traffic crunch, but...

All of this because the Spanos family of billionaires couldn't get a deal bilking the people of San Diego for a new stadium they were not willing to pitch much into.
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Re: Re:

01 Aug 2017 03:17

Nomad wrote:
movingtarget wrote:
Merckx index wrote:Here's a detailed analysis that concludes Kaepernick is better than Flacco, let alone the Ravens' backups:

http://presnapreads.com/2017/07/30/colin-kaepernick-is-better-than-joe-flacco/


Now that is an interesting post. I actually never thought that Flacco was that bad and who was Flacco's opposite number in his Super Bowl victory ? Sure on a much better team then but has Kaep regressed to the point where he isn't employable even as a back up ?

I disagree that Kap is better than Flacco. The stats don't always tell the whole story and people put too much emphasis on it at times. For one, Flacco is a Super Bowl winner & SB MVP. Winning a SB & also being the MVP will keep a QB around for a while. Secondly, the QB ratings for Flacco & Kap are nominal (Kap - 85/Flacco - 83).

However, the bigger and more important stat that wasn't mentioned, IMO, is 4th quarter comebacks & game winning drives. This really defines a QB when the chips are down and why they're paid such big bucks. Though Flacco has a few more years on Kap, he blows him away in this stat:

Flacco: 19 Fourth Quarter Comebacks, 26 Game-Winning Drives.

Kaepernick: 9 Fourth Quarter Comebacks, 9 Game-Winning Drives.

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/leaders/gwd_active.htm


Not saying Kaep is better but the stats were interesting and as you say stats are only part of the story and they also support Kaep maybe not against Flacco in some ways but definitely against some of the players beating him to back up jobs or better.
movingtarget
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Re: National Football League

01 Aug 2017 04:20

Yep. Chargers organization are being stupid.

Here's a bit of a stunner. Jags starting LT (or at least competing for #1 on the depth chart with rookie draftee Cam Robinson) announced his retirement at age 32.
http://m.jaguars.com/news/article-JaguarsNews/Branden-Albert-retires/071a3110-e7b1-4837-823e-d62041457135
If he stays retired, he owes Jax $3.4M of his signing bonus over the next 2 years.
His retirement just may make the rookie Robinson the starting LT on day-1.
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Re:

01 Aug 2017 12:39

Alpe d'Huez wrote:Good detective work there, on3m@n@rmy.

I generally agree with Hitch on the 4Q/Game winning drive stat. For example, Eli Manning is 3rd on that list, and Aaron Rodgers is 13th, tied with Andy Dalton. No one in their right mind would say either Eli or Andy are a better, or even equal QB to Rodgers. Also, late game comebacks do generate a level of intensity, but even with Rodgers relatively low number of 4Q and game winning drives, just about anyone who has watched his career would say he's had as many pressure packed, clutch throws as anyone in the NFL. For whatever the reason, the number of late wins just didn't follow. Stats like that are really hard to put into NFL numbers, because football is such a integrated team sport. This is why Phil Simms for example said a kicker feels much more pressure than a QB late in the game. The kicker is much more isolated. As such, kicker stats are much easier to compare.
Keep in mind the situation with Rodgers is misleading somewhat since he sat the bench for his first 3 seasons behind Favre (2005 -07), while Dalton & Manning played from the start. Give Rodgers those 3 seasons to play I think his GWDs would be a lot higher.

Again, I feel this is an important stat for a veteran QB. With all the momentum changes in the NFL, many games are close going late into the 4th quarter. And how many times have we seen a team leading by 17 or 21 points at the half only to be fighting for their life in a close game late in the 4th quarter. Just think back to the last SB. And last season a record number 131 games were decided by 7 points or less:

http://nextimpulsesports.com/2016/01/04/shocking-number-of-nfl-games-were-decided-by-7-points-or-less-this-season/

So, I don't see how QBs who are effective in 4th quarter comebacks & GWDs aren't doing their jobs in the first three quarters. There's too many variables: the defense could be bad, two prolific offenses, RBs & WRs could be fumbling the ball, special team breakdowns, halftime adjustments, etc. And the previous link I provided was for only active QBs...when all-time rankings are factored in, the legend Peyton Manning is #1 (who would have thought). 56 GWDs in 16 seasons...that's insane! Not half-bad for a QB who couldn't get the job done in the first 3 quarters.

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/leaders/gwd_career.htm
Nomad
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01 Aug 2017 14:45

There are two flaws with rating QBs by game-winning drives. First, as Hitch noted, points scored in the early part of the game count just as much as those scored late. Second, and this gets to the heart of the matter, the worship of game winning drives is based on the myth of clutch performance. There is very little evidence in any sport for clutch performances, and indeed, the concept is not very coherent. If a player performs better in high leverage situations, it’s just another way of saying he’s not trying as hard in less important situations. Professionals are supposed to be giving their all at all times. They’re not supposed to take some plays off, then refocus when the game is close near the end.

Great players tend to have more great performances when the game is on the line not because they’re clutch, but because they have more great performances overall. When Brady is playing, his team is very likely to win, and by chance, some of those wins will come on the last drive. He will have more game-winning drives, but he will also have more games that are not determined at the end. It’s simple statistics.

Look at that link of GWDs that was posted upthread. Suppose we list the players not by GWDs, but by the number of games they've played that were not determined by GWDs:

Brees 191
Brady 187
Manning 162
Rivers 154
Roethlisberger 146
Palmer 141
Flacco 112
Ryan 109
Stafford 81
Russell 59

The ranking is not that different; the players with the most GWDs tend to be the same players with the most games not won at the end. Why? Because they played more games overall! The more games you play, the more chances you have for GWDs. That, plus the likelihood that your team will win, are the two main factors driving GWDs. By definition, GWDs can only occur in games that the QB's team wins. So the more games a QB wins, the more GWDs he's likely to have.

The same point can be made by determining the % of games determined by a GWD:

Russell 26.25%
Stafford 25.7%
Ryan 23.2%
Brady 21.1%
Roethlisberger 21.1%
Manning 19.4%
Palmer 19.4%
Flacco 18.8%
Brees 18.0%
Rivers 14.4%

This ranking looks quite different from the first two. Why? There really isn’t that much difference among most of the QBs. Russell and Stafford are very high, but that’s probably in large part because of small sample size; they haven’t played that many games. Rivers is low, because his team hasn’t won that many games. The other players are fairly close, within normal variation. When we take into account the number of games a QB has played, there isn’t that much difference is the number of GWDs, and what difference there is largely results from the fact that the best QBs on the best teams tend to win more overall.

In summary, the best QBs tend to have the most GWDs--at the end of their careers--because they played a lot of games, and because, being great QBs, their teams probably won a lot of those games. But you can't make comparisons of this sort with all QBs, because in the first place, if their career isn't over, they haven't had the opportunity to play as many games, and second, a good QB on a bad team is not going to win as many games.
Last edited by Merckx index on 01 Aug 2017 14:52, edited 1 time in total.
Merckx index
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Re: National Football League

01 Aug 2017 14:51

Peter Schrager on Good Morning Football tweets this stat that should help get Kaep a job:
Exclusively on @gmfb -- Kaepernick comes in at 39th on the @NFLPA official merchandise top 50 list. Only player not on a team.
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Re:

02 Aug 2017 13:07

Merckx index wrote:There are two flaws with rating QBs by game-winning drives...

So, who am I to argue with someone with your expertise in field of NFL QB game-winning efficiency (as well as many other aspects in football). Therefore, you're right; the GWDs stat is meaningless because "the players with the most GWDs tend to be the same players with the most games not won at the end." However, the only dichotomy I see with this is some of the QBs down that list who played many games, but had much lower, and in some cases, very low GWDs. For example, I highlighted just a few that I watched as a younster:

> Tarkenton 246 (GP) 34 (GWD) 212 (not GWDs) 13.8%
> Testaverde 233 33 200 14%
> Morton 207 22 185 10.6%
> Starr 196 18 178 9%

You have one Hall of Famer there in Starr, and one very mobile scrambling type QB in Sir Francis. And one can't say that the offenses weren't engineered for GWDs in those days as Johnny U put up a big GWD number back around Starr's era:

> Unitas 211 40 171 19% (comparable to Brady's 21%)

FWIW, I think this shows to a certain degree some QBs are more efficient with pressure situations in those 2 minute offenses, while others may not be as comfortable. Just like with FG kickers, coaches can't say "well...we're going to play so good thoughout the game and never have to be in a situation to rely on a game winning or tying score." Doesn’t work that way as QBs can't predict whether or not they'll have to face that situation in each and every game. I imagine most QBs would rather be comfortably ahead late in the 4th quarter and not have that pressure on their shoulders while some, however, probably relish that moment.
Last edited by Alpe d'Huez on 02 Aug 2017 14:27, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: brevity in quote
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