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The Real Football Thread

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27 May 2017 07:01

Bernardo Silva to City is done.. Pep means business.

Morata on his way to Milan, with Auba a possibility and Bellotti another possibility.. insane business if anyone of those happen.

Di Maria on his way to Inter maybe, Perisic+money for him.. would be sick. Spalletti about to become the new Inter coach too. Roma will struggle to replace him well, but they will have Monchi from Sevilla as a sporting director which is insane. Inter went and poached Sabatini from Roma, so will try to emulate the recent high league finished of Roma.
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03 Jun 2017 18:41

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Re: The Real Football Thread

04 Jun 2017 09:50

I think the final yesterday was quite good. Unfortunately Juventus was completely done after Ronaldo's 2nd goal, otherwise that still could have gotten very exciting.
On a side note, I can't decide what was the scene of the game. Either Mandzukic's incredible goal or Ramos courageously fighting on after he was brutally fouled.
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Re: The Real Football Thread

04 Jun 2017 10:51

Gigs_98 wrote:I think the final yesterday was quite good. Unfortunately Juventus was completely done after Ronaldo's 2nd goal, otherwise that still could have gotten very exciting.
On a side note, I can't decide what was the scene of the game. Either Mandzukic's incredible goal or Ramos courageously fighting on after he was brutally fouled.

I think Juventus looked very tired after the first half. The way they played in the 2nd half, there is no way Real would not have won somehow.
"If I had stopped for coffee, they would have done the same. They never got off my wheel." - Fabian Cancellara after Paris-Roubaix 2011.
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Re: The Real Football Thread

04 Jun 2017 15:02

Cance > TheRest wrote:
Gigs_98 wrote:I think the final yesterday was quite good. Unfortunately Juventus was completely done after Ronaldo's 2nd goal, otherwise that still could have gotten very exciting.
On a side note, I can't decide what was the scene of the game. Either Mandzukic's incredible goal or Ramos courageously fighting on after he was brutally fouled.

I think Juventus looked very tired after the first half. The way they played in the 2nd half, there is no way Real would not have won somehow.


Agree, most likely Real would have won it one way or the other, but i think the manner the second Real's goal came really hurt Juve. It must have felt like a sucker punch to them and probably caused the lapse of concentration which allowed Ronaldo to end the game as a contest.
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10 Jun 2017 17:56

yesssss!!!!!!!!!!!! kane equalises

after the cheating scots got lucky winning free kick with a dive

crushed! that england did not win............but not so bad if scotland are unable to qualify

Mark L
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Re:

10 Jun 2017 19:38

ebandit wrote:yesssss!!!!!!!!!!!! kane equalises

after the cheating scots got lucky winning free kick with a dive

crushed! that england did not win............but not so bad if scotland are unable to qualify

Mark L

A wee bit bitter. It was a bit of a dive but was a clumsy challenge and probably a free kick anyway. Two cracking free kicks from Griffiths at the end there given the circumstances, what 2 mins to go, against the Auld Enemy and at home in a must win game!! A deserved equaliser by Kane and England were not surprisingly the better team. Don't worry if you it makes you feel better, Scotland won't qualify, leaving room for another diddy team, say someone like Norway;)
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17 Jun 2017 22:24

Commercialism strikes again. Football matches may be reduced to 60 minutes, with stoppages in play every time the ball goes dead, to avoid time wasting. So basically American football.

To stop the time wasting, adopt rugby style rules where the referee is able to stop time during a long stoppage.
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Re:

18 Jun 2017 07:15

Brullnux wrote:Commercialism strikes again. Football matches may be reduced to 60 minutes, with stoppages in play every time the ball goes dead, to avoid time wasting...

...and play commercials
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Re: The Real Football Thread

18 Jun 2017 11:46

Well it would be good for football to adopt some changes. Just because its the most popular sport in the world by far doesn't make it flawless.
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Re:

18 Jun 2017 13:18

Brullnux wrote:Commercialism strikes again. Football matches may be reduced to 60 minutes, with stoppages in play every time the ball goes dead, to avoid time wasting. So basically American football.

To stop the time wasting, adopt rugby style rules where the referee is able to stop time during a long stoppage.


How much actual playing time there is now? I've seen stats for some matches where it was quite a bit less than 60 minutes.
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Re: Re:

18 Jun 2017 13:27

roundabout wrote:
Brullnux wrote:Commercialism strikes again. Football matches may be reduced to 60 minutes, with stoppages in play every time the ball goes dead, to avoid time wasting. So basically American football.

To stop the time wasting, adopt rugby style rules where the referee is able to stop time during a long stoppage.


How much actual playing time there is now? I've seen stats for some matches where it was quite a bit less than 60 minutes.

60 minutes is estimated, but stoppages could ruin the flow of the game, unless there is a limit on how long they can be. Long stoppages filled with adverts are one of the reasons I am only able to watch the highlights of American football matches.
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Re: Re:

18 Jun 2017 15:18

Brullnux wrote:
roundabout wrote:
Brullnux wrote:Commercialism strikes again. Football matches may be reduced to 60 minutes, with stoppages in play every time the ball goes dead, to avoid time wasting. So basically American football.

To stop the time wasting, adopt rugby style rules where the referee is able to stop time during a long stoppage.


How much actual playing time there is now? I've seen stats for some matches where it was quite a bit less than 60 minutes.

60 minutes is estimated, but stoppages could ruin the flow of the game, unless there is a limit on how long they can be. Long stoppages filled with adverts are one of the reasons I am only able to watch the highlights of American football matches.

Pauses in American football are naturally longer though, since the whole teams change after a turnover or a punt. In football breaks are usually way too short for add breaks. However this would finally stop players wasting time deliberately which is definitely one of the biggest problems I have with football.
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21 Jun 2017 17:57

It's very sad seeing u21s be this unsporting in the European championships, diving and throwing themselves about as if they've been shot. Apparently it starts from a young age. The Czechs made the Italians look like saints today, and that is saying something. Referees need to be stricter, any simulation should be punished with a yellow. It's so frustrating to watch. And also, if a referee deems the reaction after a foul to be unnecessarily extravagant, they should be allowed to reverse which way the foul goes, like you sometimes get in other sports for backchat to the referee. Harsh, maybe, but it will hopefully deter anyone from this ridiculousness.

During the game today Italy were better, but my God Petagna is tremendously bad. He is a mixture of the bad qualities of Eder and Pelle, and by himself managed to relinquish three goals; just for him, the Czechs deserved to win.
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Re:

21 Jun 2017 18:12

Brullnux wrote:It's very sad seeing u21s be this unsporting in the European championships, diving and throwing themselves about as if they've been shot. Apparently it starts from a young age. The Czechs made the Italians look like saints today, and that is saying something. Referees need to be stricter, any simulation should be punished with a yellow. It's so frustrating to watch. And also, if a referee deems the reaction after a foul to be unnecessarily extravagant, they should be allowed to reverse which way the foul goes, like you sometimes get in other sports for backchat to the referee. Harsh, maybe, but it will hopefully deter anyone from this ridiculousness.

During the game today Italy were better, but my God Petagna is tremendously bad. He is a mixture of the bad qualities of Eder and Pelle, and by himself managed to relinquish three goals; just for him, the Czechs deserved to win.

I agree.

But reading about how they want to change the game time and stop clock etc. makes me sad also.

The diving needs to be stopped. It will ruin the game.
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Re:

21 Jun 2017 19:06

Brullnux wrote:It's very sad seeing u21s be this unsporting in the European championships, diving and throwing themselves about as if they've been shot. Apparently it starts from a young age. The Czechs made the Italians look like saints today, and that is saying something. Referees need to be stricter, any simulation should be punished with a yellow. It's so frustrating to watch. And also, if a referee deems the reaction after a foul to be unnecessarily extravagant, they should be allowed to reverse which way the foul goes, like you sometimes get in other sports for backchat to the referee. Harsh, maybe, but it will hopefully deter anyone from this ridiculousness.

During the game today Italy were better, but my God Petagna is tremendously bad. He is a mixture of the bad qualities of Eder and Pelle, and by himself managed to relinquish three goals; just for him, the Czechs deserved to win.


Sorry, but the bolded part is one of the most absurd proposals I have heard on the subject, a complete overreaction to an issue of secondary importance. Diving is only a problem if one cares more about superficial appearance than an actual integrity of the game.

Things like systematic and premeditated scapecoating of referees by clubs (most often through their managers), match fixing and corruption are far bigger problems that could potentially do an actual damage to the longer term future of the game. But those subjects are also more difficult to discuss about in public, for obvious reasons. Its much easier to lament about some players going down easily and present that as a trend that threatens the future of the entire game . A consequence which would justify implementing absurdly draconic countermeasures, which in reality would hurt the game more than the diving itself.

In essence the whole debate about diving is a case of one part of football fanbase considering their way of seeing the game being superior to every other interpretation of it and actively trying to enforce this view upon everyone else to an extent where it actually gets written into the laws of the game itself.
Last edited by Põhja Konn on 21 Jun 2017 19:09, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Re:

21 Jun 2017 19:08

Põhja Konn wrote:
Brullnux wrote:It's very sad seeing u21s be this unsporting in the European championships, diving and throwing themselves about as if they've been shot. Apparently it starts from a young age. The Czechs made the Italians look like saints today, and that is saying something. Referees need to be stricter, any simulation should be punished with a yellow. It's so frustrating to watch. And also, if a referee deems the reaction after a foul to be unnecessarily extravagant, they should be allowed to reverse which way the foul goes, like you sometimes get in other sports for backchat to the referee. Harsh, maybe, but it will hopefully deter anyone from this ridiculousness.

During the game today Italy were better, but my God Petagna is tremendously bad. He is a mixture of the bad qualities of Eder and Pelle, and by himself managed to relinquish three goals; just for him, the Czechs deserved to win.


Sorry, but the bolded part is one of the most absurd proposals I have heard on the subject, a complete overreaction to an issue of secondary importance. Diving is only a problem if one cares more about superficial appearance than an actual integrity of the game.

Things like systematic and premeditated scapecoating of referees (most often through their managers), match fixing and corruption are far bigger problems that could potentially do an actual damage to the longer term future of the game. But those subjects are also more difficult to discuss about, for obvious reasons. Its much easier to lament some players going down easily and present that as a trend that threatens the future of the entire game . A consequence which would justify implementing absurdly draconic countermeasures, which in reality would hurt the game more than the diving itself.

In essence the whole debate about diving is a case of one part of football fanbase considering their way of seeing the game being superior to every other interpretation of it and actively trying to enforce this view upon everyone else to an extent where it actually gets written into the laws of the game itself.

Rugby does it already? Or not? Does not seem that absurd.
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Re: Re:

21 Jun 2017 19:47

Semper Fidelis wrote:
Põhja Konn wrote:
Brullnux wrote:It's very sad seeing u21s be this unsporting in the European championships, diving and throwing themselves about as if they've been shot. Apparently it starts from a young age. The Czechs made the Italians look like saints today, and that is saying something. Referees need to be stricter, any simulation should be punished with a yellow. It's so frustrating to watch. And also, if a referee deems the reaction after a foul to be unnecessarily extravagant, they should be allowed to reverse which way the foul goes, like you sometimes get in other sports for backchat to the referee. Harsh, maybe, but it will hopefully deter anyone from this ridiculousness.

During the game today Italy were better, but my God Petagna is tremendously bad. He is a mixture of the bad qualities of Eder and Pelle, and by himself managed to relinquish three goals; just for him, the Czechs deserved to win.


Sorry, but the bolded part is one of the most absurd proposals I have heard on the subject, a complete overreaction to an issue of secondary importance. Diving is only a problem if one cares more about superficial appearance than an actual integrity of the game.

Things like systematic and premeditated scapecoating of referees (most often through their managers), match fixing and corruption are far bigger problems that could potentially do an actual damage to the longer term future of the game. But those subjects are also more difficult to discuss about, for obvious reasons. Its much easier to lament some players going down easily and present that as a trend that threatens the future of the entire game . A consequence which would justify implementing absurdly draconic countermeasures, which in reality would hurt the game more than the diving itself.

In essence the whole debate about diving is a case of one part of football fanbase considering their way of seeing the game being superior to every other interpretation of it and actively trying to enforce this view upon everyone else to an extent where it actually gets written into the laws of the game itself.

Rugby does it already? Or not? Does not seem that absurd.


It really is absurd. The fact that some sports have adopted stupid rules doesn't make those rules any less stupid. If the event of fouling an opponent is deemed less important than the reaction to that foul then why call foul in the first place? When there is a foul, there is a foul and no amount of exaggeration and playacting should erase that, it is just plain common sense.

The way football is with relatively few rules, but with endless ways to interprete those rules it, more than any other sport, mirrors the the whole spectrum of human nature. All of the good, bad and the ugly parts of it. The games standing in the world (not just sports world) and continuing growth shows that the format of the game is more or less optimal as it is, being understandable and attractive to a large majority of worlds population. What is needed, is common sense when applying the rules, not new rules to satisfy some peoples obsessions.
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Re: Re:

21 Jun 2017 20:02

Põhja Konn wrote:
Brullnux wrote:It's very sad seeing u21s be this unsporting in the European championships, diving and throwing themselves about as if they've been shot. Apparently it starts from a young age. The Czechs made the Italians look like saints today, and that is saying something. Referees need to be stricter, any simulation should be punished with a yellow. It's so frustrating to watch. And also, if a referee deems the reaction after a foul to be unnecessarily extravagant, they should be allowed to reverse which way the foul goes, like you sometimes get in other sports for backchat to the referee. Harsh, maybe, but it will hopefully deter anyone from this ridiculousness.

During the game today Italy were better, but my God Petagna is tremendously bad. He is a mixture of the bad qualities of Eder and Pelle, and by himself managed to relinquish three goals; just for him, the Czechs deserved to win.


Sorry, but the bolded part is one of the most absurd proposals I have heard on the subject, a complete overreaction to an issue of secondary importance. Diving is only a problem if one cares more about superficial appearance than an actual integrity of the game.

Things like systematic and premeditated scapecoating of referees by clubs (most often through their managers), match fixing and corruption are far bigger problems that could potentially do an actual damage to the longer term future of the game. But those subjects are also more difficult to discuss about in public, for obvious reasons. Its much easier to lament about some players going down easily and present that as a trend that threatens the future of the entire game . A consequence which would justify implementing absurdly draconic countermeasures, which in reality would hurt the game more than the diving itself.

In essence the whole debate about diving is a case of one part of football fanbase considering their way of seeing the game being superior to every other interpretation of it and actively trying to enforce this view upon everyone else to an extent where it actually gets written into the laws of the game itself.

Enormous difference of opinion here. Diving massively affects the integrity of the sport: it is cheating, pure and simple, and a disrespect to referees. It is essentially saying to them, I think you are an idiot and I can get you to do whatever I want. It also massively damages its reputation. You don't get this gamesmanship to such an extent in any other important sport, and people who prefer other sports ridicule it as a result. Like it or not, how a game looks matters immensely, and determines its popularity. People are undoubtedly turned off by it, I don't know how many but from a personal perspective it has put me off. I'd rather see players not cheat and twist referees' opinions at every turn.

Another problem I see is how players treat referees on the field (especially the important names like Messi), which is as big a problem as managers doing it. Anyway, with the introduction of VAR the problem should be resolved (if they can get it right - comms between TV official and referee should be broadcasted and the replay put on the big screen). Corruption is a big problem, and has received plenty of airtime - I don't see what you're talking about there. I'd personally call for a complete upheaval of FIFA (and its partners in different confederation) and its members, and perhaps a completely new organisation set up.

Semper Fidelis wrote:Rugby does it already? Or not? Does not seem that absurd.

More or less. The issue of simulation isn't really present in rugby, but if a penalty is awarded to a team, and then a member of said team goes on to commit foul play or say something to the referee (or is heard to say something), then the referee reverses the penalty. It isn't really that absurd. If someone is fouled, there is no need to roll on the floor for 30 seconds. Just get up and get on with it. It's another case of trying to buy a foul or a card off the referee, and it is gamesmanship. It's a pretty simple and avoidable punishment really, not at all draconian, and will avoid football getting a lot of shtick in the process.

And it really isn't 'stupid'. It punishes bad behaviour or gamesmanship, as should be done. Nobody in rugby ever complains about this rule, but praises it as it instils good behaviour. It isn't a complicated rule at all, and I don't think it will put anyone off the sport - far from it.
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Re: Re:

22 Jun 2017 19:11

Brullnux wrote:
Põhja Konn wrote:
Brullnux wrote:It's very sad seeing u21s be this unsporting in the European championships, diving and throwing themselves about as if they've been shot. Apparently it starts from a young age. The Czechs made the Italians look like saints today, and that is saying something. Referees need to be stricter, any simulation should be punished with a yellow. It's so frustrating to watch. And also, if a referee deems the reaction after a foul to be unnecessarily extravagant, they should be allowed to reverse which way the foul goes, like you sometimes get in other sports for backchat to the referee. Harsh, maybe, but it will hopefully deter anyone from this ridiculousness.

During the game today Italy were better, but my God Petagna is tremendously bad. He is a mixture of the bad qualities of Eder and Pelle, and by himself managed to relinquish three goals; just for him, the Czechs deserved to win.


Sorry, but the bolded part is one of the most absurd proposals I have heard on the subject, a complete overreaction to an issue of secondary importance. Diving is only a problem if one cares more about superficial appearance than an actual integrity of the game.

Things like systematic and premeditated scapecoating of referees by clubs (most often through their managers), match fixing and corruption are far bigger problems that could potentially do an actual damage to the longer term future of the game. But those subjects are also more difficult to discuss about in public, for obvious reasons. Its much easier to lament about some players going down easily and present that as a trend that threatens the future of the entire game . A consequence which would justify implementing absurdly draconic countermeasures, which in reality would hurt the game more than the diving itself.

In essence the whole debate about diving is a case of one part of football fanbase considering their way of seeing the game being superior to every other interpretation of it and actively trying to enforce this view upon everyone else to an extent where it actually gets written into the laws of the game itself.

Enormous difference of opinion here. Diving massively affects the integrity of the sport: it is cheating, pure and simple, and a disrespect to referees. It is essentially saying to them, I think you are an idiot and I can get you to do whatever I want. It also massively damages its reputation. You don't get this gamesmanship to such an extent in any other important sport, and people who prefer other sports ridicule it as a result. Like it or not, how a game looks matters immensely, and determines its popularity. People are undoubtedly turned off by it, I don't know how many but from a personal perspective it has put me off. I'd rather see players not cheat and twist referees' opinions at every turn.

Another problem I see is how players treat referees on the field (especially the important names like Messi), which is as big a problem as managers doing it. Anyway, with the introduction of VAR the problem should be resolved (if they can get it right - comms between TV official and referee should be broadcasted and the replay put on the big screen). Corruption is a big problem, and has received plenty of airtime - I don't see what you're talking about there. I'd personally call for a complete upheaval of FIFA (and its partners in different confederation) and its members, and perhaps a completely new organisation set up.

Semper Fidelis wrote:Rugby does it already? Or not? Does not seem that absurd.

More or less. The issue of simulation isn't really present in rugby, but if a penalty is awarded to a team, and then a member of said team goes on to commit foul play or say something to the referee (or is heard to say something), then the referee reverses the penalty. It isn't really that absurd. If someone is fouled, there is no need to roll on the floor for 30 seconds. Just get up and get on with it. It's another case of trying to buy a foul or a card off the referee, and it is gamesmanship. It's a pretty simple and avoidable punishment really, not at all draconian, and will avoid football getting a lot of shtick in the process.

And it really isn't 'stupid'. It punishes bad behaviour or gamesmanship, as should be done. Nobody in rugby ever complains about this rule, but praises it as it instils good behaviour. It isn't a complicated rule at all, and I don't think it will put anyone off the sport - far from it.


We indeed are at the different ends of the spectrum on the subject at hand, but I try to elaborate a bit on why I think like I do. Just so that we can respectfully agree to disagree.

The bolded statement really has no basis in reality. Players try to influence referees because they want to get an edge over their opponents whenever possible, its got nothing to do with their attitude to referees as an institution. Often the players previous knowledge about a particular referee determines how they act in certain situations. Also, referees themselves know what to expect of players in certain situations and so do opposing players. In an environment like this there's no cheating because no-one there is naive enough to get cheated. Some players are just more skillful and quicker thinking than others.

However I actually agree with you that the attitude of players towards referees is big problem. It mostly shows out after a decision goes against them, players today just don't accept the decision they don't like. The blatant abuse referees have to endure in such cases is disturbing to watch. Equal part of the same complex of problems is that clubs through their managers are using referees as scapegoats for their own (and their players) failings. Things are so bad that this is already considered as a lost battle when the subject is brought up for debate. Enforcing a rule that only a captain can approach and speak to referee is absolutely necessary, regardless of how hard implementing that at the beginning would be. This complex of problems is the one that has got lot less attention that it deserves and even less have been done to solve it. Respect campaign failed before it had even started and today no-one is even trying to pretend they care.

It is also good that you mentioned the word gamesmanship as analysing thing in that framework will clearly exposes the inherent hypocrisy right at the heart of the diving debate. This concept includes the much loathed things like diving and playacting. Crucially though gamesmanship also includes every single dirty trick (things like clipping heels, tugging on shirt, targeted and rotated fouling of opponents key player etc) that players use to keep opponents out in defensive phase of game. Most of those are widely accepted as normal part of the game. Lamenting the prevalence of gamesmanship, while picking out only a part of it and ignoring the rest - if this is not hypocritical, then what is ?

As a football fan I definetely am a purist and see gamesmanship as a necessary evil which forces every single player to develop their understanding of the game which more often than not results in higher quality of football on display. There obviously are infuriating cases of egregious and over the top playacting which must be punished and can be properly punished in the current framework of laws. When VARs finally get fully implemented in football those cases will be possible to properly deal with. Most of those involve a possible penalty or sending-off and thus will be reviewed immediately.

Despite not agreeing with it, I accept and understand that many people see diving as a problem. But I have really hard time taking seriously anyone who actually think it is the biggest and most prevalent problem in football today.
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