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14 May 2018 18:46

IMO Top 5:
Air
King
Bird
Magic
Sky Hook
Duncan, Malone (both of em), Shaq, Kobe? to fill out the top 10.

Russell, West, Robertson, Wilt...I din't see them play with my own eyes (well lots of replays but...) so I can't honestly say where I would put them in the top 5 or 10.

Its pretty tough to base comparisons on stats because its a team sport, so the other guys influence the numbers as well. I'm a HUGE Bird fan, but know that he was great because of the people around him. I also know that he could have had bigger numbers had the people around him not been as good.

With respect Red, putting Kobe ahead of James, makes me question what you are ranking (just rings?). IMO he barely makes the top 10 from 1975 to now so if you add in the older guys, I don't even see him in the top 10.

As with any GOAT comparison, its pretty tough to compare eras/generations.
jmdirt
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16 May 2018 10:34

Cavs in trouble against the Celtics or does Lebron pull them through again ?
movingtarget
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Re:

16 May 2018 12:48

movingtarget wrote:Cavs in trouble against the Celtics or does Lebron pull them through again ?

42-10-12 He can't do too much more, he needs some help from his team. The Cavs need to play better D.

Mathematically its tough, CLE has to win 4 out of five now. They can win two at home to tie the series, but then I think its BOS-CLE-BOS giving the HCA to BOS.
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Re:

16 May 2018 14:12

movingtarget wrote:Cavs in trouble against the Celtics or does Lebron pull them through again ?


I think it depends on whether his neck injury stiffens up and of course on his teammates ability to contribute. When your starting guards combine for 3 points then you're at a serious talent deficit in the backcourt. Plus J.R. Smith does more to hold this team back than he does to help it. Bonehead play after bonehead play combined with a shooting stroke that is more often broke than on. I honestly believe that they really need to give Hood and Clarkson more minutes. They are the only two players other than LeBron and occasionally Love that can create for themselves on offense. The rest of these guys are so limited and one dimensional that they aren't very difficult to defend against. Only through LeBron's crafty passing do they occasionally get easy buckets.

I think Boston will pull it out but it will likely go 6-7 games. Cleveland will likely shoot better at home and will be motivated to put on a show for their fans, which means they will be inclined to actually play defense just to save face. LeBron may hit for fifty in one of these games should their offense bog down.

Lue's complaints that the Celtics have "gooned it up" is rather comical. The playoffs are always more physical than the regular season and with the veteran squad that he employs maybe they need to step up their physical game more than just inserting the fake tough guy Tristan Thompson in the lineup. I don't see the Celtics as a dirty team in their play so far, as that is what "goon" implies. Maybe the Cavs with the exception of LeBron are just too soft.
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Re: Re:

16 May 2018 17:07

Angliru wrote:
movingtarget wrote:Cavs in trouble against the Celtics or does Lebron pull them through again ?


I think it depends on whether his neck injury stiffens up and of course on his teammates ability to contribute. When your starting guards combine for 3 points then you're at a serious talent deficit in the backcourt. Plus J.R. Smith does more to hold this team back than he does to help it. Bonehead play after bonehead play combined with a shooting stroke that is more often broke than on. I honestly believe that they really need to give Hood and Clarkson more minutes. They are the only two players other than LeBron and occasionally Love that can create for themselves on offense. The rest of these guys are so limited and one dimensional that they aren't very difficult to defend against. Only through LeBron's crafty passing do they occasionally get easy buckets.

I think Boston will pull it out but it will likely go 6-7 games. Cleveland will likely shoot better at home and will be motivated to put on a show for their fans, which means they will be inclined to actually play defense just to save face. LeBron may hit for fifty in one of these games should their offense bog down.

Lue's complaints that the Celtics have "gooned it up" is rather comical. The playoffs are always more physical than the regular season and with the veteran squad that he employs maybe they need to step up their physical game more than just inserting the fake tough guy Tristan Thompson in the lineup. I don't see the Celtics as a dirty team in their play so far, as that is what "goon" implies. Maybe the Cavs with the exception of LeBron are just too soft.

We were just discussing GOAT and looking across a few eras, so just for fun, compare the physicality of the 80s to now...none of these guys would survive then 'goonery' (obviously many of them could adapt).
jmdirt
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Re:

16 May 2018 20:40

jmdirt wrote:IMO Top 5:
Air
King
Bird
Magic
Sky Hook
Duncan, Malone (both of em), Shaq, Kobe? to fill out the top 10.

Russell, West, Robertson, Wilt...I din't see them play with my own eyes (well lots of replays but...) so I can't honestly say where I would put them in the top 5 or 10.

Its pretty tough to base comparisons on stats because its a team sport, so the other guys influence the numbers as well. I'm a HUGE Bird fan, but know that he was great because of the people around him. I also know that he could have had bigger numbers had the people around him not been as good.

With respect Red, putting Kobe ahead of James, makes me question what you are ranking (just rings?). IMO he barely makes the top 10 from 1975 to now so if you add in the older guys, I don't even see him in the top 10.

As with any GOAT comparison, its pretty tough to compare eras/generations.



I haven't been watching for as long as most so with all these players except Lebron, Duncan and Kobe I didn't see them.

Based on the stats - individual and championships, I would have it as

1 Jordan
2 Wilt
3 Lebron (but climbing and CAN surpass Jordan. The idea that because he loses finals he cant is ridiculous).
4 Magic
5 Kareem
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17 May 2018 03:24

Do you ever get the feeling that a team isn't giving 100%?
jmdirt
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Re: Re:

18 May 2018 12:45

The Hitch wrote:
jmdirt wrote:IMO Top 5:
Air
King
Bird
Magic
Sky Hook
Duncan, Malone (both of em), Shaq, Kobe? to fill out the top 10.

Russell, West, Robertson, Wilt...I din't see them play with my own eyes (well lots of replays but...) so I can't honestly say where I would put them in the top 5 or 10.

Its pretty tough to base comparisons on stats because its a team sport, so the other guys influence the numbers as well. I'm a HUGE Bird fan, but know that he was great because of the people around him. I also know that he could have had bigger numbers had the people around him not been as good.

With respect Red, putting Kobe ahead of James, makes me question what you are ranking (just rings?). IMO he barely makes the top 10 from 1975 to now so if you add in the older guys, I don't even see him in the top 10.

As with any GOAT comparison, its pretty tough to compare eras/generations.



I haven't been watching for as long as most so with all these players except Lebron, Duncan and Kobe I didn't see them.

Based on the stats - individual and championships, I would have it as

1 Jordan
2 Wilt
3 Lebron (but climbing and CAN surpass Jordan. The idea that because he loses finals he cant is ridiculous).
4 Magic
5 Kareem


Mine are the same!
BlueJr
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19 May 2018 23:18

Cavs inept defense allows other teams to get easy buckets. Too many layups and dunks.Cavs have to work very hard on the offensive end for their buckets.
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20 May 2018 15:11

Cavs hit back with a big win..........Lebron getting some help.
movingtarget
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20 May 2018 16:02

I'm not feeling good about these teams not showing up.
jmdirt
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Re: NBA / NCAA Basketball

21 May 2018 13:16

I sometimes get the impression that some of these teams reach the point of a game, and as early as the middle of the third quarter, when they are getting run off the court, that they are just going to shut it down and begin resting for the next game. There seems to be an inability to make adjustments on the fly as opposed to doing so during the halftime.

Houston seemed to be successful in going at Curry in game 2 and were continuing that strategy in the first half of game 3. Third quarter arrives, the Warriors go on a run and, unless I just was too caught up in the resurgence of Curry, the Rockets lost track of that winning tactic, and became completely rudderless.
User avatar Angliru
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Re: NBA / NCAA Basketball

21 May 2018 13:31

Angliru wrote:I sometimes get the impression that some of these teams reach the point of a game, and as early as the middle of the third quarter, when they are getting run off the court, that they are just going to shut it down and begin resting for the next game. There seems to be an inability to make adjustments on the fly as opposed to doing so during the halftime.

Houston seemed to be successful in going at Curry in game 2 and were continuing that strategy in the first half of game 3. Third quarter arrives, the Warriors go on a run and, unless I just was too caught up in the resurgence of Curry, the Rockets lost track of that winning tactic, and became completely rudderless.

Ya, there was a point when Houston threw in the towel, which was evident to me when they started subbing in players who never usually see the court. I thought that was more into the 4th quarter. It seemed to me and commentators that Curry kind of flipped the cards on Houston's Harden, who had been putting in effective efforts guarding Curry. The first couple of games Harden was able to sustain the effort. But in game 3 Curry (& GS) did a defensive number on Harden, making him work much harder for his points and wearing him out. That may have helped Curry go on his scoring rampage.

NBA though, said it before. Uninteresting play overall, with interesting moments. Too much isolated play, and too much chucking up the rock without any passing, and not enough team play. GS does do a better job of that than most but it still happens that way even with them.
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Re: NBA / NCAA Basketball

21 May 2018 14:30

on3m@n@rmy wrote:
Angliru wrote:I sometimes get the impression that some of these teams reach the point of a game, and as early as the middle of the third quarter, when they are getting run off the court, that they are just going to shut it down and begin resting for the next game. There seems to be an inability to make adjustments on the fly as opposed to doing so during the halftime.

Houston seemed to be successful in going at Curry in game 2 and were continuing that strategy in the first half of game 3. Third quarter arrives, the Warriors go on a run and, unless I just was too caught up in the resurgence of Curry, the Rockets lost track of that winning tactic, and became completely rudderless.

Ya, there was a point when Houston threw in the towel, which was evident to me when they started subbing in players who never usually see the court. I thought that was more into the 4th quarter. It seemed to me and commentators that Curry kind of flipped the cards on Houston's Harden, who had been putting in effective efforts guarding Curry. The first couple of games Harden was able to sustain the effort. But in game 3 Curry (& GS) did a defensive number on Harden, making him work much harder for his points and wearing him out. That may have helped Curry go on his scoring rampage.

NBA though, said it before. Uninteresting play overall, with interesting moments. Too much isolated play, and too much chucking up the rock without any passing, and not enough team play. GS does do a better job of that than most but it still happens that way even with them.


Houston won game 2 by moving the ball to the open man or the available mismatch. They went away from that with Harden and Paul going one on one again. A more committed effort on defense by the Warriors along with better help for Curry on Harden resulting in him forcing the issue and turning the ball over often had bearing on the outcome as much as Curry's resurrection. Of course being at home helps loads too. Still it was just a matter of time before Curry became unleashed and Harden's history of wilting as a series progresses is on display.

Part of what made the Rockets the team with home court advantage throughout the playoffs by virtue of having the leagues best record has come back to bite them. Ryan Anderson was an integral part of their offensive success throughout the season but is seen as a liability defensively in the playoffs, so much so that he has had little time on the court this series. That is one less offensive option for the Rockets and places a bigger burden on Harden's and Paul's shoulders.
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21 May 2018 16:57

Good points. As you can see, I'm not much of an NBA analyst. Lol
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Re:

21 May 2018 18:12

on3m@n@rmy wrote:Good points. As you can see, I'm not much of an NBA analyst. Lol


You're better than you think. I agreed with everything you said and just added to it. Harden is really an uncommitted defensive player content to gamble for steals putting himself in position to often be beat to the hole as evidenced by Sean Livingston's embarrassment of him that led to a crowd pleasing dunk. He has quick hands that can often lead to steals but more often than not he's left standing flat-footed while his opponent is penetrating his team's defense.

On another note, and one that I probably have brought before but it bothers me: Harden and his two-step either sideways or backward to achieve separation from his defender, followed by a 3 point shot. For the life of me I can't understand why this is allowed. It is in my eyes such a blatant violation that it cheapens the game. Other aspects bother me also like the supposed no hand-check rule that isn't enforced (but not anywhere near as much as this two-step separation bs). The related rule that allows the use of the forearm when a player is backing the defender down, which isn't allowed when the offensive player is face-to-face with the defender. This rule so loosely enforced that it has become useless. Am I the only one that sees this as an obvious traveling violation that is just ignored by the league?
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22 May 2018 01:11

What do people think about Harden's afore-mentioned propensity to fade in these playoff series. Looks like it may be happening again, and man, it's really kind of bizarre. Can't be physical, can it? He plays all year. Thoughts?
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Re: Re:

22 May 2018 01:36

Angliru wrote:
on3m@n@rmy wrote:Good points. As you can see, I'm not much of an NBA analyst. Lol


You're better than you think. I agreed with everything you said and just added to it. Harden is really an uncommitted defensive player content to gamble for steals putting himself in position to often be beat to the hole as evidenced by Sean Livingston's embarrassment of him that led to a crowd pleasing dunk. He has quick hands that can often lead to steals but more often than not he's left standing flat-footed while his opponent is penetrating his team's defense.

On another note, and one that I probably have brought before but it bothers me: Harden and his two-step either sideways or backward to achieve separation from his defender, followed by a 3 point shot. For the life of me I can't understand why this is allowed. It is in my eyes such a blatant violation that it cheapens the game. Other aspects bother me also like the supposed no hand-check rule that isn't enforced (but not anywhere near as much as this two-step separation bs). The related rule that allows the use of the forearm when a player is backing the defender down, which isn't allowed when the offensive player is face-to-face with the defender. This rule so loosely enforced that it has become useless. Am I the only one that sees this as an obvious traveling violation that is just ignored by the league?

Thanks, its just I don't follow NBA anymore at all except during playoffs.

As for Harden's 2-step moves, I agree it cheapens the game. That kind of shot is the type I include when I get disgusted when players "chuck up the rock" without any ball movement (passing). Maybe not as blatant, but Curry does it too. However, last night we also saw Curry dish off to a teammate, who Curry sped past into the corner, where Curry received a return pass and then put up a 3-pointer. Nothing but net. The difference - Curry used the other players and ball movement to get an open shot. The disgusting part to me is the Harden type of 2-step is blatantly uninteresting. At least the Curry shot I described here required some teamwork or team execution. I would probably stop short of calling Harden's 2-step a violation, unless he does it at times without dribbling. I just have not watched Harden enough to know whether he travels at times.

I'm not an NBA rule expert, but as for the forearm usage facing a defender, how many times have we seen Lebron do that facing a defender, or trying to go around a defender (while not backing in)? I've seen it often enough I just assumed it was legal. I used to use that trick all the time playing 1-on-1 vs my son, who was immovable as an anchored post. Very good trick for getting separation and protecting the ball. This gives the offensive player an advantage.

My other pet peeve is rookies getting foul calls vs someone like Lebron, but if it was Durant guarding Lebron it would be a no-call. A rule's a rule. Refs should just call it consistently.
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Re: NBA / NCAA Basketball

22 May 2018 02:25

Angliru wrote:
Of course being at home helps loads too.


Home court definitely matters. Since 2015, the Warriors in the postseason are 36-5 at home, 21-13 on the road. Like a 72 win team at home vs. a 50 win team win on the road. It was a very small sample size, but last year’s finals showed this in a microcosm. The Warriors won all three games at home, all by comfortable margins. On the road, they were blown out in one game and barely won the other after a late fourth quarter rally. Or just look at the current Bos-Cle series.

Another stat speaks to both home advantage and focus. During that same period, the Warriors's record in different postseason games:

Game 1: 14-1
Game 2: 12-3
Game 3: 8-7
Game 4: 10-4

Why the poor record in Game 3? Until this series, they always had home court advantage, so Game 3 was always on the road. It’s also obvious from their record in Games 1 and 2 that they usually won both those games, and probably let up a little in Game 3. Then got a little more serious in Game 4.

Meanwhile, Iggy is doubtful for Game 4. They really need his defense.
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22 May 2018 02:54

RE: Traveling violation in the NBA: 12.1.71.3: NBA players are allowed four steps without dribbling except for twice during the game when the ref calls traveling so that the fans can't say that they never call traveling. Just as bad is how they dribble from the bottom of the ball on every possession.
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