Log in:  

Register

U.S. Politics

Grab a short black and come join in the non-cycling discussion. Favourite books, movies, holiday destinations, other sports - chat about it all in the cafe.

Moderators: Irondan, Eshnar, Red Rick, Valv.Piti, Pricey_sky, Tonton, King Boonen

08 Nov 2017 17:49

aphronesis
Veteran
 
Posts: 5,450
Joined: 30 Jul 2011 16:47
Location: Bed-Stuy

Re: U.S. Politics

09 Nov 2017 02:29

InfoWars appears to have been straight up re-publishing Russian propaganda, over 1,000 times in the last 3 years. Wonder how much of it made these pages...

https://www.buzzfeed.com/janelytvynenko/infowars-is-running-rt-content

InfoWars is headed by radio host Alex Jones who propagated the false Pizzagate conspiracy theory, fueled hate against migrants, and pushed the unfounded theory that former president Barack Obama is not an American citizen.

Jones and his outlet have also faced accusations that their work often aligns with Kremlin-funded outlets such as RT, and that they have at times benefitted from amplification from Twitter bots and other Russian information operations. McClatchy reported in March that federal investigators are looking at whether far-right media such as InfoWars and Breitbart played a role in boosting Russian misinformation. In this case, there's no question that InfoWars has been copying and pasting Kremlin-funded news articles and promoting them to its audience.
User avatar red_flanders
Veteran
 
Posts: 5,702
Joined: 03 Apr 2009 06:45

09 Nov 2017 10:48

aphronesis
Veteran
 
Posts: 5,450
Joined: 30 Jul 2011 16:47
Location: Bed-Stuy

09 Nov 2017 17:18

One of the more interesting pieces on the Steele dossier I've read.

http://observer.com/2017/10/fact-versus-fiction-in-the-steele-dossier-on-donald-trump/

The Steele dossier should be treated with caution. The Kremlin has long run complex spy stories together—creating “faction” by mixing bona fide information with disinformation—to confuse Western intelligence, and they may very well have done it again here. Those seeking the truth of Donald Trump’s relationship with Moscow should view the dossier as a jumping-off point for more investigation and no more. Otherwise, you may get quickly lost in what seasoned counterspies term the wilderness of mirrors.
User avatar red_flanders
Veteran
 
Posts: 5,702
Joined: 03 Apr 2009 06:45

09 Nov 2017 21:17

aphronesis
Veteran
 
Posts: 5,450
Joined: 30 Jul 2011 16:47
Location: Bed-Stuy

09 Nov 2017 21:59

Future US senator Roy Moore. SMH.....
"It was 40 years ago," Alabama Marion County GOP chair David Hall tells me. "I really don't see the relevance of it. He was 32. She was supposedly 14. She's not saying that anything happened other than they kissed."
Me: "The story said she said he tried to get her to touch his genitals." Hall: "Well, she said he may have TRIED to. But we're talking something that somebody SAID happened, 40 years ago. It wouldn't affect whether or not I'd vote for him."
More Hall: “The other women that they’re using to corrobrate: number one, one was 19, one was 17, one was 16. There’s nothing wrong with a 30-year-old single male asking a 19-year-old, a 17-year-old, or a 16-year-old out on a date."
After a long pause, Alabama Bibb County Republican chairman Jerry Pow tells me he'd vote for Roy Moore even if Moore did commit a sex crime against a girl. "I would vote for Judge Moore because I wouldn't want to vote for Doug," he says. "I'm not saying I support what he did."

Tweets from Daniel Dale of the Toronto Sun.

EDIT. I am going to be ill.
Aaron Blake tweets.
Wow. This defense of Roy Moore from AL state Auditor Jim Ziegler:
"Take Joseph and Mary. Mary was a teenager and Joseph was an adult carpenter. They became parents of Jesus.”
Donald Trump: "We are getting near that beautiful Christmas season that people don't talk about anymore."
djpbaltimore
Senior Member
 
Posts: 2,890
Joined: 09 Jun 2014 13:41
Location: Baltimore, MD

Re: U.S. Politics

10 Nov 2017 00:15

Once again, cyclists know best :) . Hats off Juli!

Image

If it got her to lose her job, well, probably that was the wrong company to work for. Something good will come out of it. Go Juli!

Dossier...the bodyguard admits that Trump was offered five women to join him in his room. Said that nothing happened. But still confirmed part of Steele's claim. And like the Russia thing, that went from no links, to meetings, not about Hillary of course...it's like pulling teeth, but more and more comes out as time goes by.

Soon the truth shall be revealed I hope. Not that it will convince the 32% or so, idiots and/or racists and/or losers and/or white trash: but for reasonable people, maybe one more reason to stop the joke that America has become.

Bravo Juli! And Bravo VA and NJ for making these elections (I hope) the beginning of the end for Trumpism.
When I woke up and saw the yellow jersey that I had left by my bed the night before, I asked myself: "what are you doing in Merckx's bedroom?" I couldn't believe it - Bernard Thevenet
User avatar Tonton
Moderator
 
Posts: 3,405
Joined: 17 May 2013 18:59


10 Nov 2017 08:21

Roy Moore's gonna be ok ...
http://www.esquire.com/news-politics/politics/a13511234/roy-moore-allegations/
I may be entirely too cynical but I think, if Moore has the sand for it, he will follow this up with an explanation of how he had sinned, as all fallen humans do, but that Jesus has forgiven him and washed him in the blood of the Lamb, and now it’s time for him to bring his redeemed hindquarters to godless Washington to show the heathen the path to glory that he’s been blessed to follow. That might work.
Rød pølse - Breakfast of Champions!
"The president is one large S.T.D., and if you’re in close proximity you’re going to get tainted by it.”
User avatar Robert5091
Member
 
Posts: 1,135
Joined: 29 Mar 2016 08:56
Location: stockholm, sweden

10 Nov 2017 08:31

Surprise! :rolleyes:
https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2017/11/requiem-for-gary-cohns-soul

With Senate Republicans expected to unveil the outline for a sweeping tax rewrite on Thursday, a lucrative break for golf-course owners—including the president—remains firmly in place in the House version of the measure. The Obama administration estimated in 2014 that closing the controversial loophole would save more than $600 million over a decade. While Republicans are eliminating many write-offs, the House version of the bill allows golf-course owners to claim deductions for promising never to build on their links. The Trump Organization, which owns a dozen courses in the U.S., has taken advantage of the break in the past, using a law that’s supposed to help preserve open space.
Rød pølse - Breakfast of Champions!
"The president is one large S.T.D., and if you’re in close proximity you’re going to get tainted by it.”
User avatar Robert5091
Member
 
Posts: 1,135
Joined: 29 Mar 2016 08:56
Location: stockholm, sweden

Re: U.S. Politics

10 Nov 2017 11:06

red_flanders wrote:InfoWars appears to have been straight up re-publishing Russian propaganda, over 1,000 times in the last 3 years. Wonder how much of it made these pages...

https://www.buzzfeed.com/janelytvynenko/infowars-is-running-rt-content

InfoWars is headed by radio host Alex Jones who propagated the false Pizzagate conspiracy theory, fueled hate against migrants, and pushed the unfounded theory that former president Barack Obama is not an American citizen.

Jones and his outlet have also faced accusations that their work often aligns with Kremlin-funded outlets such as RT, and that they have at times benefitted from amplification from Twitter bots and other Russian information operations. McClatchy reported in March that federal investigators are looking at whether far-right media such as InfoWars and Breitbart played a role in boosting Russian misinformation. In this case, there's no question that InfoWars has been copying and pasting Kremlin-funded news articles and promoting them to its audience.

So what do you make of all the other state funded news outlets? ABC, CBC, BBC, NPR? I'd accept that any of those, including RT, publish misinformation IF one could actually point to the misinformation. I've never actually seen someone dissect an RT news article and point out the factual errors.

I think it's also understood that all these state funded organizations publish articles that are flattering of the host nation (Vancouver voted best city in the world!!!) though I doubt that rises to the level of propaganda.

Now compare that to what Udo Ulfkotte, editor for Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung, revealed. The CIA has bought journalists and editors at every major western news organizations and that he was routinely handed full articles to publish.

John Swanson
ScienceIsCool
Member
 
Posts: 1,463
Joined: 05 Jul 2009 15:34

Re:

10 Nov 2017 11:17

red_flanders wrote:One of the more interesting pieces on the Steele dossier I've read.

http://observer.com/2017/10/fact-versus-fiction-in-the-steele-dossier-on-donald-trump/

The Steele dossier should be treated with caution. The Kremlin has long run complex spy stories together—creating “faction” by mixing bona fide information with disinformation—to confuse Western intelligence, and they may very well have done it again here. Those seeking the truth of Donald Trump’s relationship with Moscow should view the dossier as a jumping-off point for more investigation and no more. Otherwise, you may get quickly lost in what seasoned counterspies term the wilderness of mirrors.


Phew. That was the least critical minded, laziest analysis I've seen in a long time. Accepting something because it sounds plausible and then drawing conclusions. Accepting statements as truthful without any evidence whatsoever. Allowing that most of it is probably factually inaccurate, but then saying that as a whole it creates an "atmospheric" piece of intelligence.

In reality, the DNC/Clintons paid millions for a dossier, using a law firm as a cutout. They used contacts within the British government to get Steele to do the dirty work. In the end they got exactly what they paid for. There was never any need for the dossier to be credible in any sense for it to be a bludgeon against Trump's first year.

For anyone who's interested, this is a plotline straight out of Le Carre's "Tailor of Panama". Everyone up and down the line knew they were being fed BS, but it was a perfect means to accomplish an unsavory goal. And when it all goes pear shaped, everyone's hands are clean.

John Swanson
ScienceIsCool
Member
 
Posts: 1,463
Joined: 05 Jul 2009 15:34

Re: U.S. Politics

10 Nov 2017 11:36

The Kurds are so f@!Ked ...
http://www.rudaw.net/english/opinion/09112017
"At least Obama told us he was not going to do anything."


Standing by as the Kurds were forced to retreat has sent a message far more powerful than the administration's words on Iran. After two days of hearing Middle Easterners lament the gap between the rhetoric and the reality of the Trump administration policies, I left feeling that it is time for the administration either to scale back what it claims it will do or actually begin to marry actions to our words.
Rød pølse - Breakfast of Champions!
"The president is one large S.T.D., and if you’re in close proximity you’re going to get tainted by it.”
User avatar Robert5091
Member
 
Posts: 1,135
Joined: 29 Mar 2016 08:56
Location: stockholm, sweden

Re: U.S. Politics

10 Nov 2017 14:20

ScienceIsCool wrote:So what do you make of all the other state funded news outlets? ABC, CBC, BBC, NPR? I'd accept that any of those, including RT, publish misinformation IF one could actually point to the misinformation. I've never actually seen someone dissect an RT news article and point out the factual errors.

I think it's also understood that all these state funded organizations publish articles that are flattering of the host nation (Vancouver voted best city in the world!!!) though I doubt that rises to the level of propaganda.

Now compare that to what Udo Ulfkotte, editor for Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung, revealed. The CIA has bought journalists and editors at every major western news organizations and that he was routinely handed full articles to publish.

John Swanson

1) ABC is not state funded.
2) Vancouver is amazing.
3) Reporting about the Seth Rich murder on RT. It wasn't the facts that were part of the misinformation. It was the speculation and opinions expressed about the murder.
Donald Trump: "We are getting near that beautiful Christmas season that people don't talk about anymore."
djpbaltimore
Senior Member
 
Posts: 2,890
Joined: 09 Jun 2014 13:41
Location: Baltimore, MD

Re: U.S. Politics

10 Nov 2017 16:18

djpbaltimore wrote:
ScienceIsCool wrote:So what do you make of all the other state funded news outlets? ABC, CBC, BBC, NPR? I'd accept that any of those, including RT, publish misinformation IF one could actually point to the misinformation. I've never actually seen someone dissect an RT news article and point out the factual errors.

I think it's also understood that all these state funded organizations publish articles that are flattering of the host nation (Vancouver voted best city in the world!!!) though I doubt that rises to the level of propaganda.

Now compare that to what Udo Ulfkotte, editor for Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung, revealed. The CIA has bought journalists and editors at every major western news organizations and that he was routinely handed full articles to publish.

John Swanson

1) ABC is not state funded.
2) Vancouver is amazing.
3) Reporting about the Seth Rich murder on RT. It wasn't the facts that were part of the misinformation. It was the speculation and opinions expressed about the murder.


1) Touche
2) Eff that. I was lucky to escape Vanhattan this summer, after 28 years of continuous decline.
3) A single editorial and the site is rubbish? Cuz we gotta talk about WaPo.
Bonus) What about Udo Ulfkotte and what he revealed?

John Swanson
ScienceIsCool
Member
 
Posts: 1,463
Joined: 05 Jul 2009 15:34

Re: U.S. Politics

10 Nov 2017 17:13

ScienceIsCool wrote: What about Udo Ulfkotte and what he revealed?

John Swanson


Are there any witnesses (or other forms of evidence) that support his claims?

I'll happily admit I'm not very knowledgeable about Ulfkotte's claims, but in the present age of hacking and information leaking you might expect some more evidence than a single journalist claiming to break the omertà. I'd like some more evidence than a single witness for such claims as Ulfkotte makes. Without that, I can't really blame people for treating it as a conspiracy theory and usually just ignoring it.
User avatar Maaaaaaaarten
Senior Member
 
Posts: 3,401
Joined: 23 Oct 2011 17:47

Re: U.S. Politics

10 Nov 2017 17:32

ScienceIsCool wrote:
1) Touche
2) Eff that. I was lucky to escape Vanhattan this summer, after 28 years of continuous decline.
3) A single editorial and the site is rubbish? Cuz we gotta talk about WaPo.
Bonus) What about Udo Ulfkotte and what he revealed?

John Swanson

Since, Baltimore and DC are my default cities, maybe I am grading Vancouver on a curve. I was there in June en route to the Glaciers. Great weather and Stanley Park was pristine. Even the geese there were friendly. Run into American geese and they will often attack you. All the Canadians we met were super nice too, even the civil servants. Air Canada is also so much better than US domestic options for flying.

The CIA does some pretty horrendous things, so I wouldn't put it past them to do what was alleged. Overall, Fox news does some good reporting, but their bias is often present in what they cover. Same with RT. I wouldn't put RT at the level of Infowars by any means. I am skeptical of them in general, but fair play to them for trying to shape public opinion in the West.
Donald Trump: "We are getting near that beautiful Christmas season that people don't talk about anymore."
djpbaltimore
Senior Member
 
Posts: 2,890
Joined: 09 Jun 2014 13:41
Location: Baltimore, MD

Re: Re:

10 Nov 2017 17:33

ScienceIsCool wrote:
red_flanders wrote:One of the more interesting pieces on the Steele dossier I've read.

http://observer.com/2017/10/fact-versus-fiction-in-the-steele-dossier-on-donald-trump/

The Steele dossier should be treated with caution. The Kremlin has long run complex spy stories together—creating “faction” by mixing bona fide information with disinformation—to confuse Western intelligence, and they may very well have done it again here. Those seeking the truth of Donald Trump’s relationship with Moscow should view the dossier as a jumping-off point for more investigation and no more. Otherwise, you may get quickly lost in what seasoned counterspies term the wilderness of mirrors.


Phew. That was the least critical minded, laziest analysis I've seen in a long time. Accepting something because it sounds plausible and then drawing conclusions. Accepting statements as truthful without any evidence whatsoever. Allowing that most of it is probably factually inaccurate, but then saying that as a whole it creates an "atmospheric" piece of intelligence.

In reality, the DNC/Clintons paid millions for a dossier, using a law firm as a cutout. They used contacts within the British government to get Steele to do the dirty work. In the end they got exactly what they paid for. There was never any need for the dossier to be credible in any sense for it to be a bludgeon against Trump's first year.

For anyone who's interested, this is a plotline straight out of Le Carre's "Tailor of Panama". Everyone up and down the line knew they were being fed BS, but it was a perfect means to accomplish an unsavory goal. And when it all goes pear shaped, everyone's hands are clean.

John Swanson


Wow. The guy is an intelligence officer who fought agains the Russians for years. It is his analysis based on long experience on what happened. He's giving his best assessment of what it is, but couches it in terms of "may" and "possible" because he's not pretending to know what actually happened.

Which is smart. Conspiracy theories based on faulty assumptions are not smart.

He does not say "it creates an "atmospheric" piece of intelligence", this is false. He says "Its observations about Kremlin atmospherics, while accurate, were mostly pedestrian" and "the dossier’s depiction of Kremlin politics—what spies call “atmospherics”—are undeniably true".

Did you just suggest a factual equivalency between the BBC and others to RT?

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-russia-election-exclusive/putin-linked-think-tank-drew-up-plan-to-sway-2016-us-election-documents-idUSKBN17L2N3

Four of the officials said the approach outlined in the June strategy paper was a broadening of an effort the Putin administration launched in March 2016. That month the Kremlin instructed state-backed media outlets, including international platforms Russia Today and Sputnik news agency, to start producing positive reports on Trump’s quest for the U.S. presidency, the officials said.

...

It recommended the Kremlin launch a propaganda campaign on social media and Russian state-backed global news outlets to encourage U.S. voters to elect a president who would take a softer line toward Russia than the administration of then-President Barack Obama, the seven officials said.

A second institute document, drafted in October and distributed in the same way, warned that Democratic presidential candidate Hillary Clinton was likely to win the election. For that reason, it argued, it was better for Russia to end its pro-Trump propaganda and instead intensify its messaging about voter fraud to undermine the U.S. electoral system’s legitimacy and damage Clinton’s reputation in an effort to undermine her presidency, the seven officials said.


I'm going to go ahead and buy our intelligence community's unanimous assessment. Like the above, all the best lies contain truth so that someone will believe it.
User avatar red_flanders
Veteran
 
Posts: 5,702
Joined: 03 Apr 2009 06:45

Re: U.S. Politics

10 Nov 2017 19:51

On Roy Moore. The defense by Alabama RNC member Paul Reynolds.

“My gosh, it's The Washington Post. If I’ve got a choice of putting my welfare into the hands of Putin or The Washington Post, Putin wins every time,” he told The Hill. “This is going to make Roy Moore supporters step up to the plate and give more, work more and pray more.”

http://thehill.com/homenews/campaign/359715-gop-scrambles-to-respond-to-moore-allegations

Every day I wonder how much lower they can go. Sadly, every day my mouth is agape.
User avatar red_flanders
Veteran
 
Posts: 5,702
Joined: 03 Apr 2009 06:45

Re: Re:

10 Nov 2017 20:44

red_flanders wrote:Wow. The guy is an intelligence officer who fought agains the Russians for years. It is his analysis based on long experience on what happened. He's giving his best assessment of what it is, but couches it in terms of "may" and "possible" because he's not pretending to know what actually happened.

Which is smart. Conspiracy theories based on faulty assumptions are not smart.

He does not say "it creates an "atmospheric" piece of intelligence", this is false. He says "Its observations about Kremlin atmospherics, while accurate, were mostly pedestrian" and "the dossier’s depiction of Kremlin politics—what spies call “atmospherics”—are undeniably true".

Did you just suggest a factual equivalency between the BBC and others to RT?

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-russia-election-exclusive/putin-linked-think-tank-drew-up-plan-to-sway-2016-us-election-documents-idUSKBN17L2N3

Four of the officials said the approach outlined in the June strategy paper was a broadening of an effort the Putin administration launched in March 2016. That month the Kremlin instructed state-backed media outlets, including international platforms Russia Today and Sputnik news agency, to start producing positive reports on Trump’s quest for the U.S. presidency, the officials said.

...

It recommended the Kremlin launch a propaganda campaign on social media and Russian state-backed global news outlets to encourage U.S. voters to elect a president who would take a softer line toward Russia than the administration of then-President Barack Obama, the seven officials said.

A second institute document, drafted in October and distributed in the same way, warned that Democratic presidential candidate Hillary Clinton was likely to win the election. For that reason, it argued, it was better for Russia to end its pro-Trump propaganda and instead intensify its messaging about voter fraud to undermine the U.S. electoral system’s legitimacy and damage Clinton’s reputation in an effort to undermine her presidency, the seven officials said.


I'm going to go ahead and buy our intelligence community's unanimous assessment. Like the above, all the best lies contain truth so that someone will believe it.

Is there *anything* in that quote of yours that is not mis-information? Dude. You need to be a bit more critical about what you're being fed. A whole bucket full of hyperbolic claims without a shred of evidence except for four anonymous "sources" from within the system producing the lies you're supposed to believe. Whew!

A good rule of thumb is to disregard the subject or the source. If the subject matter was bigfoot, would you believe them? Four anonymous sources said bigfoot sabotaged Clinton? Okay... Show something to back it up.

John Swanson
ScienceIsCool
Member
 
Posts: 1,463
Joined: 05 Jul 2009 15:34

PreviousNext

Return to General

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 11 guests

Back to top