Log in:  

Register

U.S. Politics

Grab a short black and come join in the non-cycling discussion. Favourite books, movies, holiday destinations, other sports - chat about it all in the cafe.

Moderators: Eshnar, Irondan, King Boonen, Red Rick, Pricey_sky

13 May 2018 01:09

ChewbaccaDefense
Member
 
Posts: 1,947
Joined: 05 Nov 2013 19:35
Location: Nevada City, CA

13 May 2018 01:47

Scott SoCal wrote:
“Senator, what I believe sitting here today is, I support the higher moral standard we have decided to hold ourselves to"

“My experiences during those days after 9/11 inform my views. I'm extremely knowledgeable, and I'm also extremely knowledgeable about the price CIA working-level men and women out in the trenches paid for decisions made after 9/11."

“I want to be clear," she said. "Having served in that tumultuous time, I can offer you my personal commitment, clearly and without reservation, that under my leadership CIA will not restart such a detention and interrogation program."


If you can read and understand what you read then you can plainly see she’s left herself zero wiggle room. Of course, that’s not good enough for you.


Zero wiggle room? What you have quoted was her way of dodging the actual question put to her: Do you now believe that the interrogations were immoral? She was asked several times, and refused to say she thought they were immoral. Why not? If she isn't going to restart them, why can't she say that the reason she won't is because they were immoral? Or if, following the lead of the soldier you quote (see below), she honestly thought they weren’t—that there was nothing but “mild” waterboarding--why not say so?

Just to be clear, I’m not implacably opposed to Haspel, but she’s not doing herself or the country any good by refusing to be 100% transparent about this earlier period.

We are not talking about pulling out fingernails or people’s teeth here. We aren’t talking about playing Russian roulette or chopping off hands or other extremities. We are talking about relatively mild interrogation techniques that I know to be relatively safe and effective because I have experienced many of them.


Like hitting someone on the head so hard he loses consciousness? He really thinks that is “relatively safe”? Not possible he could have suffered a concussion, brain damage? Or if not him, someone else, because if he was hit hard enough on the head to lose consciousness briefly, there’s certainly a possibility that someone else similarly treated lost consciousness a lot longer. Or maybe the military tests this out first? Maybe they hit a pool of subjects on the head with varying degrees of force, to learn the maximum force possible that results in brief unconsciousness?
Merckx index
Senior Member
 
Posts: 3,746
Joined: 27 Jul 2010 19:19

Re:

13 May 2018 02:39


I always sit for a minute during or after a visit to Wendy's, Arby's, McDonald's, Home Depot, Walmart, Von's, Ralph's ..ect.. I think about all the POS systems that can allow me to complete a transaction without any human contact.. I bought a gallon of Castrol 10-40 used a coupon and was in and out of the store in less than 10 minutes w using the bathroom.
I get Wendy's singles, or a regular Arby's roast beef sandwich.. my technique is pretty standard.. two sandwiches per lunch, Von's and Ralph's both have salad bars.. so I can go in and get a salad and soup in @5 minutes or less w payment.
All these transactions are done by getting rid of the American job that used to be associated with the transaction. The automation made the human obsolete.
Uber,Tesla and every car company is working 24\7 to get rid of the American worker..
Trump and the government are not talking lots about the major effort to eliminate the worker..
All the rednecks talking about some immigrants stepping on toes, taking jobs and never once asking what is Chevy,Ford, Kenworth doing to ruin their way of life.. will self driving trucks stop to use the bathroom? Will the self driving trucks need a cab designed for human use? Or will the fuel tank and truck design be made to get improvement on distance and payload..? Why would a self driving truck need a sleeper? Not sure truck stop food and service like showers and washes are going to need to be placed as frequently along common routes..
I went to the movies a few months ago.. entering w my ticket without anyone getting paid to sell it to me or check it as I sat down..if @$10 bucks an hour is important.. everything eliminated above that wage scale should be just that much more important..
If all big business can work with government approval and coordination to eliminate American workers it should be at least recognized.
. if those displaced and developing workers are counting on an intelligent mindful strategy in preparation by Betsy DeVos.. don't.
If it's not illegal for companies to replace workers with machines, customers don't find it immoral ... please don't be surprised at income inequality..at my local Home Depot I have seen @20 - @$12 an hour jobs eliminated by machines..
hell in San Diego.. gasoline is a huge business..in the last@10 years almost the entire business has been automated.. and since the corporations have not sent me a rebate and the prices never go down.. I am guessing that the savings by using machines are probably being pocketed as profit
Unchained
Member
 
Posts: 769
Joined: 05 Sep 2016 00:24

Re:

13 May 2018 04:33

Merckx index wrote:
Scott SoCal wrote:
“Senator, what I believe sitting here today is, I support the higher moral standard we have decided to hold ourselves to"

“My experiences during those days after 9/11 inform my views. I'm extremely knowledgeable, and I'm also extremely knowledgeable about the price CIA working-level men and women out in the trenches paid for decisions made after 9/11."

“I want to be clear," she said. "Having served in that tumultuous time, I can offer you my personal commitment, clearly and without reservation, that under my leadership CIA will not restart such a detention and interrogation program."


If you can read and understand what you read then you can plainly see she’s left herself zero wiggle room. Of course, that’s not good enough for you.


Zero wiggle room? What you have quoted was her way of dodging the actual question put to her: Do you now believe that the interrogations were immoral? She was asked several times, and refused to say she thought they were immoral. Why not? If she isn't going to restart them, why can't she say that the reason she won't is because they were immoral? Or if, following the lead of the soldier you quote (see below), she honestly thought they weren’t—that there was nothing but “mild” waterboarding--why not say so?

Just to be clear, I’m not implacably opposed to Haspel, but she’s not doing herself or the country any good by refusing to be 100% transparent about this earlier period.

We are not talking about pulling out fingernails or people’s teeth here. We aren’t talking about playing Russian roulette or chopping off hands or other extremities. We are talking about relatively mild interrogation techniques that I know to be relatively safe and effective because I have experienced many of them.


Like hitting someone on the head so hard he loses consciousness? He really thinks that is “relatively safe”? Not possible he could have suffered a concussion, brain damage? Or if not him, someone else, because if he was hit hard enough on the head to lose consciousness briefly, there’s certainly a possibility that someone else similarly treated lost consciousness a lot longer. Or maybe the military tests this out first? Maybe they hit a pool of subjects on the head with varying degrees of force, to learn the maximum force possible that results in brief unconsciousness?


Haspel has stated over and over and over and over that she has evolved on the issue of waterboarding. She has stated repeatedly she supports the laws and the Army field manual as it stands today.

Crucify her all you want. I’m old enough to remember the panic back then. And I’m old enough to remember thinking this was only the beginning. Give some credit to those working in impossible conditions somehow managed to keep repeat occurrences from happening. Probably no small feat considering the starting position.

Kamala Harris should be goddam ashamed. She’s nowhere near smart enough to be but.... Of course Haspel isn’t going to throw her team up stream and down stream under the bus by saying waterboarding was “immoral.” If it’s so immoral why are our guys trained to deal with it?

Honestly, I’m glad there are people willing to protect the Country and it’s people. None of their names are Kamala Harris. What a complete joke.
Instigating profanity laced tirades since 2009
User avatar Scott SoCal
Veteran
 
Posts: 11,640
Joined: 08 Nov 2012 16:47
Location: Southern California

Re: Re:

13 May 2018 04:35

aphronesis wrote:
Scott SoCal wrote:
aphronesis wrote:https://jacobinmag.com/2018/05/trump-iran-nuclear-deal-sanctions

Elsewhere (not Busted) : I guess it’s a particularly skewed view of what it means to be “more American” to have participated in the “Cold War” devastation of Indo China and playing polarizing presidential campaign politics rather than just reading the tea leaves and going down softly.

Maybe one is more French if they fought in Algeria or more British in the Opium Wars.

Maybe some focus on the warm fuzzy hagiography.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.vanityfair.com/news/2010/11/mccain-201011/amp

I know it’s hard to read links; sometimes one has to suck it up and learn something.


I’m confused.

John McCain is the single greatest political leader of our time


https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/john-mccain-is-the-single-greatest-political-leader-of-our-time/2018/05/11/f7d33e22-5553-11e8-abd8-265bd07a9859_story.html?noredirect=on&utm_term=.c29c83f29c78


How someone in the 21st century can write that way?


The author was crying while writing it and I was crying while reading it. Dana Milbank. I think he makes a living doing this.
Instigating profanity laced tirades since 2009
User avatar Scott SoCal
Veteran
 
Posts: 11,640
Joined: 08 Nov 2012 16:47
Location: Southern California

Re: Re:

13 May 2018 04:37

Unchained wrote:

I always sit for a minute during or after a visit to Wendy's, Arby's, McDonald's, Home Depot, Walmart, Von's, Ralph's ..ect.. I think about all the POS systems that can allow me to complete a transaction without any human contact.. I bought a gallon of Castrol 10-40 used a coupon and was in and out of the store in less than 10 minutes w using the bathroom.
I get Wendy's singles, or a regular Arby's roast beef sandwich.. my technique is pretty standard.. two sandwiches per lunch, Von's and Ralph's both have salad bars.. so I can go in and get a salad and soup in @5 minutes or less w payment.
All these transactions are done by getting rid of the American job that used to be associated with the transaction. The automation made the human obsolete.
Uber,Tesla and every car company is working 24\7 to get rid of the American worker..
Trump and the government are not talking lots about the major effort to eliminate the worker..
All the rednecks talking about some immigrants stepping on toes, taking jobs and never once asking what is Chevy,Ford, Kenworth doing to ruin their way of life.. will self driving trucks stop to use the bathroom? Will the self driving trucks need a cab designed for human use? Or will the fuel tank and truck design be made to get improvement on distance and payload..? Why would a self driving truck need a sleeper? Not sure truck stop food and service like showers and washes are going to need to be placed as frequently along common routes..
I went to the movies a few months ago.. entering w my ticket without anyone getting paid to sell it to me or check it as I sat down..if @$10 bucks an hour is important.. everything eliminated above that wage scale should be just that much more important..
If all big business can work with government approval and coordination to eliminate American workers it should be at least recognized.
. if those displaced and developing workers are counting on an intelligent mindful strategy in preparation by Betsy DeVos.. don't.
If it's not illegal for companies to replace workers with machines, customers don't find it immoral ... please don't be surprised at income inequality..at my local Home Depot I have seen @20 - @$12 an hour jobs eliminated by machines..
hell in San Diego.. gasoline is a huge business..in the last@10 years almost the entire business has been automated.. and since the corporations have not sent me a rebate and the prices never go down.. I am guessing that the savings by using machines are probably being pocketed as profit


Never fear. Union reps are pushing for $15/hour minimum wage. That will fix everything.
Instigating profanity laced tirades since 2009
User avatar Scott SoCal
Veteran
 
Posts: 11,640
Joined: 08 Nov 2012 16:47
Location: Southern California

Re: Re:

13 May 2018 12:49

[quote="[url=http://forum.cyclingnews.com/viewtopic.php?p=2256910#p2256910]Scott SoCal
So you are equating the interrogation of KSM and his ilk to killing civilians intentionally. You didn’t intentionally take out X but unintentionally you took out X. Tell me, does X know the difference? Haspel oversaw a black site. She followed orders where some bad guy was water boarded. She’s the devil. You followed orders, dropped ordinance and have no idea how many innocents went up in smoke. By you own logic, why does that make you?


One was intentional, one was not. One was intentionally punishing KSM, revenge, the other was the concept of not intentionally targeting civilians.

Interesting article from the SEAL..When I went to SERE school and we were the last class that was under the 'Soviet' style' of being a POW..being smacked around, being locked in boxes, no sleep, waterboarding, really nasty pipe smoke blown up our noses...But also 40 YEaRS before 9/11(1974). The new 'commandant', seen strolling around, was a former POW from the Hanoi Hilton..the 'interrogation' changed for the next class..more isolation, more noise, loud music, discomfort positions..and SERE lasted longer as well.

Do I understand that, right after 9/11, we were all angry, wanted revenge? I even called and volunteered to come off retirement(I retired in 1993) and be on some staff somewhere so an operator could get into the fight.
BUT, we all wanted to go to war and kill the bad guys. WE recognized that if torture could give up information that would prevent another 9/11, prevent another attack, sure, why not? BUT waterboarding KSM(and I disagree that it was 'mild', it scared the shite outta me) 83 times was way beyond 'interrogation', it was punishment. AND waterboarding, along with other 'techniques', were not in keeping with any manual or regulation. Doing more drastic things, like trump wanted to do, was seen as 'excessive', like cutting off their hands and feet and sending them back home(which is what Gaddafi wanted to do to any captured US aviators during the Libya strike). Haspel knew what she was leading and participating in was beyond interrogation. BUT she's a smart cookie, says the things the Senators want to hear, never said it was 'immoral', even though it was..and she will get confirmed.
User avatar Bustedknuckle
Veteran
 
Posts: 5,061
Joined: 23 Jul 2009 15:38
Location: USofA

Re: U.S. Politics

13 May 2018 12:59

trump's understanding of almost everything is confined to the characters of twitter..
"Iran's Military Budget is up more than 40% since the Obama negotiated Nuclear Deal was reached...just another indicator that it was all a big lie.

Really, how so? He ignored his own SecDef..don't they see the same intel?
It was actually up abut 30% and ours was way, way up as well. The Iran deal down the toilet was a political move to keep his deplorable base happy and trump will see a conflict in the middle east, that will be his doing. BTW..Iran's military budget is 2% of the US...
Defense Secretary James Mattis on Thursday praised certain parts of the Iran nuclear deal, as President Trump repeatedly bashed the multination agreement this week and and threatened to pull the United States out of it.
Asked at a Senate Armed Services Committee hearing whether the U.S. should stay in the Iran deal, Mattis would not give his opinion. He later said that the deal’s provisions allow “pretty robust” oversight of what Iran is doing.
“I've read it now three times … and I will say that it is written almost with an assumption that Iran would try to cheat,” he told lawmakers.
“So the verification, what is in there, is actually pretty robust as far as our intrusive ability” for the International Atomic Energy Agency to check on whether Iran is complying.

So, like the ACA, to keep his knuckledragging base happy, throw it out, screw the consequences..rather than 'fix it'..but it has the black muslim's name on it, so out it goes..shame.
User avatar Bustedknuckle
Veteran
 
Posts: 5,061
Joined: 23 Jul 2009 15:38
Location: USofA

Re: Re:

13 May 2018 13:00

Unchained wrote:

I always sit for a minute during or after a visit to Wendy's, Arby's, McDonald's, Home Depot, Walmart, Von's, Ralph's ..ect.. I think about all the POS systems that can allow me to complete a transaction without any human contact.. I bought a gallon of Castrol 10-40 used a coupon and was in and out of the store in less than 10 minutes w using the bathroom.
I get Wendy's singles, or a regular Arby's roast beef sandwich.. my technique is pretty standard.. two sandwiches per lunch, Von's and Ralph's both have salad bars.. so I can go in and get a salad and soup in @5 minutes or less w payment.
All these transactions are done by getting rid of the American job that used to be associated with the transaction. The automation made the human obsolete.
Uber,Tesla and every car company is working 24\7 to get rid of the American worker..
Trump and the government are not talking lots about the major effort to eliminate the worker..
All the rednecks talking about some immigrants stepping on toes, taking jobs and never once asking what is Chevy,Ford, Kenworth doing to ruin their way of life.. will self driving trucks stop to use the bathroom? Will the self driving trucks need a cab designed for human use? Or will the fuel tank and truck design be made to get improvement on distance and payload..? Why would a self driving truck need a sleeper? Not sure truck stop food and service like showers and washes are going to need to be placed as frequently along common routes..
I went to the movies a few months ago.. entering w my ticket without anyone getting paid to sell it to me or check it as I sat down..if @$10 bucks an hour is important.. everything eliminated above that wage scale should be just that much more important..
If all big business can work with government approval and coordination to eliminate American workers it should be at least recognized.
. if those displaced and developing workers are counting on an intelligent mindful strategy in preparation by Betsy DeVos.. don't.
If it's not illegal for companies to replace workers with machines, customers don't find it immoral ... please don't be surprised at income inequality..at my local Home Depot I have seen @20 - @$12 an hour jobs eliminated by machines..
hell in San Diego.. gasoline is a huge business..in the last@10 years almost the entire business has been automated.. and since the corporations have not sent me a rebate and the prices never go down.. I am guessing that the savings by using machines are probably being pocketed as profit


https://www.counterpunch.org/2018/05/11/making-the-world-safe-for-precarity/
aphronesis
Veteran
 
Posts: 6,631
Joined: 30 Jul 2011 16:47
Location: Bed-Stuy

13 May 2018 18:53

Aphro that was a very good article.. my own life is\was effected by the use of credit. Both in California and New York through a combination of cash, credit and current employment found myself able to buy real estate that appreciated at a rate that no other investment could have.
. I was basically in the right place at the right time. No intense skills or training of which people would associate a real estate mogul having..
I made money from doing nothing more than sleeping in the house and parking my car in the driveway..
I also did not completely get the Walmart 27 hour reference..? I am guessing that through software, Walmart management can monitor employee hours to ensure that full time status is never achieved.. I have seen some big customers that use Kronos or similar to meet that type of goal.
In some big corporate restaurant chains I have worked for, kitchen\knife skills have been nearly eliminated.. so many items are pre packed and pre cut it is nothing short of amazing.
I did work in some airport restaurants many years ago and recall chefs in training, not so much for basic skills, instead for the specific techniques and recipes.. myself and others used to really enjoy eating the training food!! my most recent experience is restaurants hiring lots of right-out-of-school kitchen staff.. they learn how to heat and present the food as per corporate photos.. Applebee's and Outback are a couple that I think maybe only have one or two people with real kitchen skills.. everyone else is at state minimum wage.. I patronize Starbucks for coffee a few times per week and seeing there staff of people microwaving food makes me cringe..4-5 dollar, old sandwiches made flexible by the use of a microwave.. nobody w any cooking skills..
I have seen some decent skills in school cafeteria staff.. I have eaten some decent, wholesome meals prepared by school cooks..we are taking the skill part of lots of jobs and centralizing it..
PS.. if nobody has seen Kronos used by trained professional staff it will blow you away
Unchained
Member
 
Posts: 769
Joined: 05 Sep 2016 00:24

Re: Re:

13 May 2018 21:59

Scott SoCal wrote:I’m old enough to remember the panic back then. And I’m old enough to remember thinking this was only the beginning.


But apparently not old enough to understand that we--open, democratic societies--go through these repressive eras periodically. Why? Because we never learn. Why? One reason is because there's never an honest, open conversation about them. If Haspel had said, yes, in retrospect it was immoral, but you have to understand what we were experiencing at the time, our fear,etc., etc...Then maybe next time--and there will be a next time--we could look back and say, we felt this way before, and we still regretted it later on.

It's not a left-right thing with me. Bernie was asked why he supported Brennan, who was also involved at that time, but not Haspel. He first dodged the question, then when it was asked again, basically admitted it was because he liked Brennan's political views better. I''ll give him a little credit for eventually owning up to that, but a lot of discredit for the hypocrisy.

Honestly, I’m glad there are people willing to protect the Country and it’s people.


i don't know if you don't understand statistics, are in denial, or just don't care, but the number of lives at stake just from gutting the clean air regulations--let alone all the others--is in the hundreds of thousands, dwarfing the number killed by terrorist incidents. These are real people who will really die, just so a few of Trump's and Pruitt's friends who already have more money than they need can put their snouts in the trough and gobble up some more.
Merckx index
Senior Member
 
Posts: 3,746
Joined: 27 Jul 2010 19:19

14 May 2018 02:15

aphronesis
Veteran
 
Posts: 6,631
Joined: 30 Jul 2011 16:47
Location: Bed-Stuy

Re: Re:

14 May 2018 02:46

Merckx index wrote:
Scott SoCal wrote:I’m old enough to remember the panic back then. And I’m old enough to remember thinking this was only the beginning.


But apparently not old enough to understand that we--open, democratic societies--go through these repressive eras periodically. Why? Because we never learn. Why? One reason is because there's never an honest, open conversation about them. If Haspel had said, yes, in retrospect it was immoral, but you have to understand what we were experiencing at the time, our fear,etc., etc...Then maybe next time--and there will be a next time--we could look back and say, we felt this way before, and we still regretted it later on.

It's not a left-right thing with me. Bernie was asked why he supported Brennan, who was also involved at that time, but not Haspel. He first dodged the question, then when it was asked again, basically admitted it was because he liked Brennan's political views better. I''ll give him a little credit for eventually owning up to that, but a lot of discredit for the hypocrisy.

Honestly, I’m glad there are people willing to protect the Country and it’s people.


i don't know if you don't understand statistics, are in denial, or just don't care, but the number of lives at stake just from gutting the clean air regulations--let alone all the others--is in the hundreds of thousands, dwarfing the number killed by terrorist incidents. These are real people who will really die, just so a few of Trump's and Pruitt's friends who already have more money than they need can put their snouts in the trough and gobble up some more.


But apparently not old enough to understand that we--open, democratic societies--go through these repressive eras periodically. Why? Because we never learn.


Sure. Which is why I’ll never understand those that are all geeked up about some new form of socialism.

If Haspel had said, yes, in retrospect it was immoral, but you have to understand what we were experiencing at the time, our fear,etc., etc...Then maybe next time--and there will be a next time--we could look back and say, we felt this way before, and we still regretted it later on.


Which is the essence of what she said. Harris wanted her to throw her colleagues under the bus. Ya know, Just politics, like with the Bernie thing above.

you don't understand statistics


Yeah well last year there were more than 40,000 killed in traffic accidents for the second year in a row. That’s a lot more killed than in terrorist attacks. You know what’s the cause of the increase? A good economy and near saturation of smart phone use by motorists. Maybe we should do something about that.

just so a few of Trump's and Pruitt's friends who already have more money than they need can put their snouts in the trough and gobble up some more


Right. Because Trump and Pruitt’s friends don’t need clean air... and air knows who is breathing it clean versus dirty. Dirty air targets non-friends of Trump/Pruitt.
Instigating profanity laced tirades since 2009
User avatar Scott SoCal
Veteran
 
Posts: 11,640
Joined: 08 Nov 2012 16:47
Location: Southern California

14 May 2018 02:56

Sure thing. How do you see regulating phone usage in cars. How about all cars have to be fitted with mechanisms that block all cell and wifi? Except for the kids in the backseat of course.

NYC had the fewest pedestrian deaths ever. Cyclists deaths are up but there are more of them. Dumb as the drivers and their phones.

Your failure to understand the appeal of “socialism” may hae to do with the fact that you spent the first major chunk of your life equating it with totalitarianism and not trying much after you got over that primitive hurdle. The article I linked above glosses the actually existing “enlightened” socialism of the Northern countries. Their failures aside you take the common route of saying it hasn’t worked therefore it won’t work, so there’s no need to think about restructuring capitalism, government or society well beyond Bernie’s 1930s suggestions. Because it’s hard. At the end of the day you play apologist for all kinds of mechanisms that hurt many. The same can’t be said of most pushing socialism. Maybe that’s too abstract and hard to grasp.

The air counter argument may have hit a new level ( low) of abject stupidity. I guess you only think about the living conditions of the poor when you’re compiling Chicago gun deaths to mount some distorted defense of the 2nd Amendment.

Although if you descend far enough into right-wing , illiterate fundamentalism, the mods will probably back-off on special needs grounds.
aphronesis
Veteran
 
Posts: 6,631
Joined: 30 Jul 2011 16:47
Location: Bed-Stuy

Re:

14 May 2018 04:15

aphronesis wrote:Sure thing. How do you see regulating phone usage in cars. How about all cars have to be fitted with mechanisms that block all cell and wifi? Except for the kids in the backseat of course.

NYC had the fewest pedestrian deaths ever. Cyclists deaths are up but there are more of them. Dumb as the drivers and their phones.

Your failure to understand the appeal of “socialism” may hae to do with the fact that you spent the first major chunk of your life equating it with totalitarianism and not trying much after you got over that primitive hurdle. The article I linked above glosses the actually existing “enlightened” socialism of the Northern countries. Their failures aside you take the common route of saying it hasn’t worked therefore it won’t work, so there’s no need to think about restructuring capitalism, government or society well beyond Bernie’s 1930s suggestions. Because it’s hard. At the end of the day you play apologist for all kinds of mechanisms that hurt many. The same can’t be said of most pushing socialism. Maybe that’s too abstract and hard to grasp.

The air counter argument may have hit a new level ( low) of abject stupidity. I guess you only think about the living conditions of the poor when you’re compiling Chicago gun deaths to mount some distorted defense of the 2nd Amendment.

Although if you descend far enough into right-wing , illiterate fundamentalism, the mods will probably back-off on special needs grounds.


Hey man, if you don’t understand the illustration of absurdity by being absurd then you don’t. Always loved the clean air/water jibes like MI put up there. Trump and Pruitt are going to relax regs and let their friends pollute more for even more riches. I mean, they don’t need clean air and water, right?

Nothing hard about socialism. It’s the most gutless form of government there is. Say “yes” to most everything except excellence and incentive. Equal outcomes via central planning by the corrupt elite. What could go wrong?

Although if you descend far enough into right-wing , illiterate fundamentalism, the mods will probably back-off on special needs grounds.


Sorry, didn’t mean to push your buttons. I know how upset you get, but you bore the hell out of me. And you know I hate to be bored.
Instigating profanity laced tirades since 2009
User avatar Scott SoCal
Veteran
 
Posts: 11,640
Joined: 08 Nov 2012 16:47
Location: Southern California

14 May 2018 04:24

You don’t push my buttons and I’m not upset. But given the extreme paranoia you’re afflicted with lately, I can see how you’d be off on gauging affect. If your way through these persecution issues is to play the stupidest guy in the room, by all means.

I was wrong though: you still equate totalitarianism with socialism.

Excellence and innovation? Maybe you can work on that auto death issue. I know it’s got you exercised.

You know economics and can poke holes in Dem MSm points, but don’t offer much more. I’d be bored too.
aphronesis
Veteran
 
Posts: 6,631
Joined: 30 Jul 2011 16:47
Location: Bed-Stuy

Re:

14 May 2018 04:50

aphronesis wrote:You don’t push my buttons and I’m not upset. But given the extreme paranoia you’re afflicted with lately, I can see how you’d be off on gauging affect. If your way through these persecution issues is to play the stupidest guy in the room, by all means.

I was wrong though: you still equate totalitarianism with socialism.

Excellence and innovation? Maybe you can work on that auto death issue. I know it’s got you exercised.

You know economics and can poke holes in Dem MSm points, but don’t offer much more. I’d be bored too.


I just don’t have the patience I used to have. I’m not going to change anyone’s mind about anything. There’s no point in even discussing socialism with a theorist. You know what you know and what I know is socialism the way it’s done in Northern European countries won’t fly here for lots of reasons - not the least of which is the undoing of a culture that tells their kids they can be anything they want to be.

I’m stupid. Fine. You incessantly respond to a stupid poster. Sounds like we are both stupid. I’ll continue to post as I like and you’ll just have to deal with it.
Instigating profanity laced tirades since 2009
User avatar Scott SoCal
Veteran
 
Posts: 11,640
Joined: 08 Nov 2012 16:47
Location: Southern California

Re: Re:

14 May 2018 04:51

Scott SoCal wrote:
Yeah well last year there were more than 40,000 killed in traffic accidents for the second year in a row. That’s a lot more killed than in terrorist attacks. You know what’s the cause of the increase? A good economy and near saturation of smart phone use by motorists. Maybe we should do something about that.


There have been > 40,000 killed most years for the past half century, through good economic times and bad. There were actually > 50,000 deaths in the late 60s and early 70s. The state of the economy doesn't have that much to do with them, because government regulations have reduced fatalities per miles traveled by 90% since WWII.

Right. Because Trump and Pruitt’s friends don’t need clean air... and air knows who is breathing it clean versus dirty. Dirty air targets non-friends of Trump/Pruitt.


In the first place, they can afford to live in places that are less polluted. So, yes, dirty air does tend to target the poor:

Tiny particles of air pollution contain more hazardous ingredients in nonwhite and low-income communities than in affluent white ones, a new study shows


https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/people-poor-neighborhoods-breate-more-hazardous-particles/

In the second place, while even the rich will be affected to some extent, they don’t think they will—just as they don’t think they’re going to be affected by climate change. So your argument that they wouldn’t do something that is potentially harmful to themselves is nonsense—just the kind of argument that you would demolish if it came from the other side (e.g., of course central planners will provide incentives to capitalists, because they want the products of capitalism, too).

Nothing hard about socialism. It’s the most gutless form of government there is. Say “yes” to most everything except excellence and incentive. Equal outcomes via central planning by the corrupt elite. What could go wrong?


Nothing hard about capitalism. It’s the most hypocritical form of economics there is. Say “me” to most everything except government-supported education, transportation, communication, basic research, defense—everything that a capitalist needs to have for free to be able to have any kind of business at all.
Merckx index
Senior Member
 
Posts: 3,746
Joined: 27 Jul 2010 19:19

Re: Re:

14 May 2018 04:56

Scott SoCal wrote:
aphronesis wrote:You don’t push my buttons and I’m not upset. But given the extreme paranoia you’re afflicted with lately, I can see how you’d be off on gauging affect. If your way through these persecution issues is to play the stupidest guy in the room, by all means.

I was wrong though: you still equate totalitarianism with socialism.

Excellence and innovation? Maybe you can work on that auto death issue. I know it’s got you exercised.

You know economics and can poke holes in Dem MSm points, but don’t offer much more. I’d be bored too.


I just don’t have the patience I used to have. I’m not going to change anyone’s mind about anything. There’s no point in even discussing socialism with a theorist. You know what you know and what I know is socialism the way it’s done in Northern European countries won’t fly here for lots of reasons - not the least of which is the undoing of a culture that tells their kids they can be anything they want to be.

I’m stupid. Fine. You incessantly respond to a stupid poster. Sounds like we are both stupid. I’ll continue to post as I like and you’ll just have to deal with it.


I’ve never said you’re stupid, but acting so. I already (years ago and now) pointed at the limits of NorEur socialism and yet you’re stuck there. Oh, and the constitution.

So innivation and excellence for busisnessmen, none for politics?
aphronesis
Veteran
 
Posts: 6,631
Joined: 30 Jul 2011 16:47
Location: Bed-Stuy

Re: Re:

14 May 2018 05:00

Merckx index wrote:
Scott SoCal wrote:
Yeah well last year there were more than 40,000 killed in traffic accidents for the second year in a row. That’s a lot more killed than in terrorist attacks. You know what’s the cause of the increase? A good economy and near saturation of smart phone use by motorists. Maybe we should do something about that.


There have been > 40,000 killed most years for the past half century, through good economic times and bad. There were actually > 50,000 deaths in the late 60s and early 70s. The state of the economy doesn't have that much to do with them, because government regulations have reduced fatalities per miles traveled by 90% since WWII.

Right. Because Trump and Pruitt’s friends don’t need clean air... and air knows who is breathing it clean versus dirty. Dirty air targets non-friends of Trump/Pruitt.


In the first place, they can afford to live in places that are less polluted. So, yes, dirty air does tend to target the poor:

Tiny particles of air pollution contain more hazardous ingredients in nonwhite and low-income communities than in affluent white ones, a new study shows


https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/people-poor-neighborhoods-breate-more-hazardous-particles/

In the second place, while even the rich will be affected to some extent, they don’t think they will—just as they don’t think they’re going to be affected by climate change. So your argument that they wouldn’t do something that is potentially harmful to themselves is nonsense—just the kind of argument that you would demolish if it came from the other side (e.g., of course central planners will provide incentives to capitalists, because they want the products of capitalism, too).

Nothing hard about socialism. It’s the most gutless form of government there is. Say “yes” to most everything except excellence and incentive. Equal outcomes via central planning by the corrupt elite. What could go wrong?


Nothing hard about capitalism. It’s the most hypocritical form of economics there is. Say “me” to most everything except government-supported education, transportation, communication, basic research—everything that a capitalist needs to have for free to be able to have any kind of business at all.


Traffic fatalities were in the low 30,000’s as recently as 2014. Relatively low fuel cost, more people working and distracted driving are out-weighting regulated accident avoidance systems and safer cars.

Lots of very wealthy people live in the LA basin. Some of the worst air quality in the nation. Probably some of Pruitt’s friends are here.

Not “me” but “we.” Supply doesn’t work without demand and vice versa. And nothing is free.
Instigating profanity laced tirades since 2009
User avatar Scott SoCal
Veteran
 
Posts: 11,640
Joined: 08 Nov 2012 16:47
Location: Southern California

PreviousNext

Return to General

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 11 guests

Back to top