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Re:

16 Nov 2017 19:21

djpbaltimore wrote:I would disagree with that assessment of the article. I think the author's conclusion is that actions speak louder than words and that is how trust is earned, not because a person may offer up genial platitudes over a beer. Anybody who voted for Trump is no longer someone that I would consider a 'friend' and I am white as rice.

Indeed, even in Donald Trump’s America, I have not given up on being friends with all white people. My bi-ethnic wife, my most trusted friend, understands she is seen as a white woman, even though her brother and father are not. Among my dearest friends, the wedding party and children’s godparents variety, many are white. But these are the friends who have marched in protest, rushed to airports to protest the president’s travel ban, people who have shared the risks required by strength and decency.


I think that is an overly optimistic reading of that article. I don't think it can be denied the author is arguing for a priori distrust of white people, until they prove otherwise by their actions. Even in the paragraph you cite, where he seems to be trying to nuance himself, he still affirms white people can only be his friends if they show through their actions that they share his political beliefs. Besides being rather intolerant of people with different political beliefs, he's still singling out white people! If it were just about Trump, why didn't he name his article "can you be friends with Trump voters?" Why bring race into it? Can he be friends with people from other races who voted for Trump? Distrust of a group of people based on their race really cannot be construed in any other way than racism.

For African-Americans, race has become a proxy not just for politics but also for decency. White faces are swept together, ominous anxiety behind every chance encounter at the airport or smiling white cashier. If they are not clearly allies, they will seem unsafe to me.


Imagine saying that about any other ethnic group than whites..... :o

Looking at the political developments in the US as an outsider, with its increasing polarization, its increasingly hostile attitudes resulting occasionally in unabashed hatred or even racism - from both sides - I worry and I hope the US won't prove a trend setter for Europe as it has done so often the past decades.
Last edited by Maaaaaaaarten on 16 Nov 2017 19:30, edited 1 time in total.
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16 Nov 2017 19:27

sounds like some dudes:

a) never heard of a brown rice, or
b) dont like it, or
c) consider the white rice the only 'real' rice
or
simply have not been exposed to a typical culinary/kitchen diversity

i've no way of knowing which is which...just thought it was a majorly misplaced parallel for a us citizen never claiming any irony/humour.

ironically, brown rice is widely considered a better food.

i would not extend the parallel to ALL brown people BUT would stand by a personal observation that many 'browns' i met and befriended were superior to the white trash i met in america in droves.

and i am as blond and blue-eyed as a nordic can be :lol: :razz: :idea:
DJPbaltimore:'John Kerry is an honorable person and would not call out the Russians if there was not evidence', 'the 2 of you are russia stooges'
in foreign policy there are no eternal friendships or eternal enemies, only eternal interests
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Re: Re:

16 Nov 2017 20:08

Maaaaaaaarten wrote:
I think that is an overly optimistic reading of that article. I don't think it can be denied the author is arguing for a priori distrust of white people, until they prove otherwise by their actions. Even in the paragraph you cite, where he seems to be trying to nuance himself, he still affirms white people can only be his friends if they show through their actions that they share his political beliefs. Besides being rather intolerant of people with different political beliefs, he's still singling out white people! If it were just about Trump, why didn't he name his article "can you be friends with Trump voters?" Why bring race into it? Can he be friends with people from other races who voted for Trump? Distrust of a group of people based on their race really cannot be construed in any other way than racism.

For African-Americans, race has become a proxy not just for politics but also for decency. White faces are swept together, ominous anxiety behind every chance encounter at the airport or smiling white cashier. If they are not clearly allies, they will seem unsafe to me.


Imagine saying that about any other ethnic group than whites..... :o

Looking at the political developments in the US as an outsider, with its increasing polarization, its increasingly hostile attitudes resulting occasionally in unabashed hatred or even racism - from both sides - I worry and I hope the US won't prove a trend setter for Europe as it has done so often the past decades.
Having multiple parties should help protect Europe from the worst polarization. I don't know how much you know about the USA, but the bolded is something that was taught to many white people about black people for years and years and still is in many places. I think the issue is less political than you think and the article reads better if you don't read it as written in a partisan manner. The author doesn't single out Trump voters because he realizes that there is still a big issue with White people who vote democrat, too. Often they are the comfortable latte sippers (TM Chewbacca) that are happy with the status quo and often fall into the trap of respectability politics when dealing with minorities. Right now in America, a majority of the white people living here think WHITE people are being discriminated against in society. I don't think white people have earned a priori trust in the manner that you claim for the reasons offered in the article. I'm actually more pessimistic than the author. Nobody in the USA deserves a priori trust. Also, the NYT opinion page is often a troll fest, so I don't see how this stands out compared to what is generally put there.
https://www.npr.org/2017/10/24/559604836/majority-of-white-americans-think-theyre-discriminated-against
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16 Nov 2017 20:40

i am going to go out on a limb and observe the nyt article statements criticized by maarten, and further enhanced by...
...Right now in America, a majority of the white people living here think WHITE people are being discriminated against in society. I don't think white people have earned a priori trust

are not only exceedingly pretentious wrt to how a 'majority of the white people think' - for the record, i am white living 'here' and dont know a single white thinking the way they are accused - the statements are flat down RACIST.

pretending a reverse racism is somehow different from a classic racism is racist. either due to an attempt to look good or due to lacking a a universal standard/definition of what racism is. plenty of times found americans claiming to be liberal confused about the difference...not that many europeans are less confused but there is a general tendency to 'say what one thinks' in europe...at least that's my take.
Last edited by python on 16 Nov 2017 20:45, edited 1 time in total.
DJPbaltimore:'John Kerry is an honorable person and would not call out the Russians if there was not evidence', 'the 2 of you are russia stooges'
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16 Nov 2017 20:44

Maybe click on the link that I provided and you will learn something about what the majority of White people in America think. But maybe that is too much to ask....

More than half of whites — 55 percent — surveyed say that, generally speaking, they believe there is discrimination against white people in America today.
I don't need my PhD to determine that 55% is a majority of white people, despite what some random poster's anecdotal sample tells us. :rolleyes:
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16 Nov 2017 20:48

i am as white as they come and your references to people with my experience and views are pain racist and false. the clicking you suggest to enhance a racist view you hold is ...well racism enabling. my view.

or yeah your phd came again as an argument enhancer :lol: say it few more times :lol:
DJPbaltimore:'John Kerry is an honorable person and would not call out the Russians if there was not evidence', 'the 2 of you are russia stooges'
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16 Nov 2017 20:51

So, basically you are admitting that my statement was factually true. Thanks for that insight. Maybe you would just prefer to bury your head in the sand. Again, feel free to join the discussion with something more that your (likely apocryphal) anecdotal sampling.

Here is another link. Here is what 'impartial' judges (the majority of whom are white males) in the USA have done. Actions speak louder than words.

Black men who commit the same crimes as white men receive federal prison sentences that are, on average, nearly 20 percent longer, according to a new report on sentencing disparities from the United States Sentencing Commission (USSC).


https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2017/11/16/black-men-sentenced-to-more-time-for-committing-the-exact-same-crime-as-a-white-person-study-finds/?utm_term=.4f11188fd114
Last edited by djpbaltimore on 16 Nov 2017 20:55, edited 1 time in total.
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16 Nov 2017 20:55

New finding? Judges? How about police encounters and black/white incarceration rates for marijuana?

I’m not going back to it now, but I think Hitch somewhat misread the article.
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16 Nov 2017 20:57

i said your statements are racist and false as applied.

if you want to read an agreement with you into a very plainly stated disagreement you are delusional.
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16 Nov 2017 20:57

Yes, new data from 2011 to 2016. Notice on the graph that the disparity is actually increasing, not decreasing, over time.
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Re:

16 Nov 2017 20:58

djpbaltimore wrote:Yes, new data from 2011 to 2016. Notice on the graph that the disparity is actually increasing, not decreasing, over time.


Yes that’s the beauty of the US carceral system. Not on the latte radar.
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Re:

16 Nov 2017 21:08

python wrote:i said your statements are racist and false as applied.

if you want to read an agreement with you into a very plainly stated disagreement you are delusional.
For the last time, if you are going to say that my statement is false, back it up with data. I supported my assertion with evidence. Try doing that for a change, instead of name-calling.

@aphro. Agreed, and not something Clinton would've improved on (or likely focused too much attention on) if she had won.
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16 Nov 2017 21:20

your statements are both racist and false wrt to white people described by maarten and and those minded likewise.

that you are incapable of seeing own racism and attempting to pass it as evidence to the contrary (not withstanding the the objective weakness of various polls that always served some payer) is further evidence of YOURS (not those you accused) of being partisan. tell us again you have a phd (never mind your are clueless about your detractors scientific credits) and we will seize questioning you :lol:
DJPbaltimore:'John Kerry is an honorable person and would not call out the Russians if there was not evidence', 'the 2 of you are russia stooges'
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16 Nov 2017 21:21

Given how they played it during Bill’s term, no. I could be misremembering but I think some for profit prison builders were foundation donors.
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Re:

16 Nov 2017 21:39

djpbaltimore wrote:I don't need my PhD to determine that :


got it. you have a phd...and you feel mentioning THAT was supposed to be enhancing your argument ?

i seem to recall the line, but it always boiled down to what YOU believed vs some others phd holders opinion - such as blutto - or may god strike me for immodesty - a phd holder like myself.

the difference btwn us is i NEVER thumb my chest with it ....
DJPbaltimore:'John Kerry is an honorable person and would not call out the Russians if there was not evidence', 'the 2 of you are russia stooges'
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Re: Re:

16 Nov 2017 21:48

Re: Clinton. I don't know about the foundation, but her campaign received money from lobbyists for private prisons.
python wrote:
djpbaltimore wrote:I don't need my PhD to determine that :


got it. you have a phd...and you feel mentioning THAT was supposed to be enhancing your argument ?

i seem to recall the line, but it always boiled down to what YOU believed vs some others phd holders opinion - such as blutto - or may god strike me for immodesty - a phd holder like myself.

the difference btwn us is i NEVER thumb my chest with it ....
Never?

python wrote:it was long ago that i went to a reputable computer store and asked how i could accommodate my intention. keep in mind, i am a tech geek, even have a science phd in an unrelated field, but was a total failure at home or office networking. we are talking 2006 and i was far from what i am today...
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djpbaltimore
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16 Nov 2017 22:07

i am so glad you had sunk so low as to completely ignore the difference....but i will bite.

only a lazy will fail to find (provided you did not delete it) YOUR constant referrals to being a phd professor/scientist as AN argument enhancement in the politics threads. moreover it was served as a stepping pad for ridiculing the 'lesser educated'

thank you for the quote where i ridiculed myself on a technical issue i was expecting myself to do better as a holder of a technical pedigree

once again, you fail a context, you fail thoughtfulness of a wider thinker, you excel at a symptomatic/automatic 'you too' political stamps. like accusing me people of labels. to make everyone appreciate on the differences i will quote you (myself) again

.... even have a science phd in an unrelated field, but was a total failure at home or office networking


those interested, including the mods, will figure out what they will. i am done with you.

to conclude, some like m.index and several other NEVER hid nor doubted each other science degrees even though we disagreed a lot.
DJPbaltimore:'John Kerry is an honorable person and would not call out the Russians if there was not evidence', 'the 2 of you are russia stooges'
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16 Nov 2017 22:24

Our loss, I guess. We will miss insights like your claim that the US is filled with droves of white trash, while ridiculing others for using racist language.
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djpbaltimore
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16 Nov 2017 22:32

once again, YOUR loss.. let others speak for themselves about thei loss b/c your 'our loss' is too obviously self-serving.

as claiming i agreed with you. and when such a delusional sentiment exposed a whine was heard :D

be my gust to disagree, but quit claiming a phd has anything to do with it. and of course, you invented a phrase i never said. otherwise, quote me, pls, verbatim. not a huge surprise.
DJPbaltimore:'John Kerry is an honorable person and would not call out the Russians if there was not evidence', 'the 2 of you are russia stooges'
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16 Nov 2017 22:38

My mistake. In the mod thread you claimed to be limiting yourself to Xc threads and I thought you were finally going to follow through on that. Bye!
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