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Re:

15 Oct 2018 23:37

aphronesis wrote:I respond to your posts because they’re nonsense and foment regressive politics. I think it’s fair to say that blanketing an entire people with a negative intent is bigoted. If your articulation and rational faculties are so keen, it should have been easy to avoid the first time. You didn’t. Reflection is hard I know, but that’s the pattern I see along with hyperbolic claims.

If you can’t handle having your inchoate views challenged publicly and are unable to rephrase them in mature terms when “wildly mischaracterized” maybe you should woodshed them more before going public.

That’s P U B L I C. You get how that works right? I haven’t PM’d you and don’t really bother with posts on other threads.


Delicious irony.

Challenge posts, fine. Attack literally every post I make? More than a little weird.

I've been here a long time, and had plenty of very smart folks challenge my views. That's why I come here.

You seem to be here to push an agenda. You (again) don't understand my politics, you assume. You don't ask. You're wrong. It's not what you're saying, it's how you're saying it, the frequency (every time I post), and the absurd mischaracterizations that are the issue. If your challenges were interesting, accurate, or in any way showed an understanding of my views I'd be happy to engage. You're not discussing or challenging in good faith.

Normally I"d be flattered with the obsession but it's not interesting enough to warrant it.. Feel free to give it a slight rest.
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16 Oct 2018 01:01

Actually, I don’t challenge every post you make to this thread. Only the most absurd ones. Have a scroll through and see. And your history in this thread isn’t much. You’ve haven’t said anything that vaguely rises to the level of me wanting to ask about it. Again, if you don’t want to be challenged, don’t post ridiculous things. I have no agenda other than reactive statements rub me wrong. You’re a font of them. I get that your sense of self importance could make that hard to see.

The reality is that a lot of posters have challenged your rather reductive views; most of them simply son’t post here anymore.

The problem here is yours. I find your politics problematic. When pressed you equivocate and deny, and, ultimately, take a more insulting tone with me than I do with you and level the charge of agenda at me and various articles. As if that puts it out of bounds and only your opinions are pure. The only obsession and irrationality here appears to be yours and your mystification that anyone could take issue with what you say.
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Re: U.S. Politics

16 Oct 2018 12:33

Back to Monday and what's new in the trump clown car..'rouge killers'', ya know, those 'rouge killers' that arrived in a Saudi government plane in Turkey, went right to their embassy and 'interrogated' the journalist..'interrogated' is Saudi for 'killed and chopped him up so they could more easily dispose of him'...but donnie is so deep financially with SA(and Russia), that even if the Saudis issue a statement about 'interrogation gone wrong', this spineless pri&k won't do anything..

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2018/oct/16/jared-kushner-trump-saudi-khashoggi-mbs
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Re:

16 Oct 2018 12:37

jmdirt wrote:https://www.salon.com/2018/10/14/the-u-s-economy-swoons-on-the-lip-of-the-global-debt-canyon/


$900 some BILLION added to National Debt this year, over a $TRILLION in next 2 years..booming economy, yet YUGE deficits..criminal..economy isn't 'paying for 'tax cut', not even close. Wages stagnant, prices going up, yet, Fed 'loco'..shows how ignorant donnie is..throw in trade wars...November can't come soon enough..
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16 Oct 2018 12:46

https://www.newsmax.com/finance/streettalk/trump-budget-deficit-6-year/2018/10/15/id/886366/
The U.S. budget deficit grew to $779 billion in Donald Trump’s first full fiscal year as president, the highest since 2012 amid tax cuts and spending increases.

The budget gap for the 12 months through September was 17 percent wider than the same 12-month period a year earlier, as spending rose 3.2 percent and revenue gained just 0.4 percent, according to a Treasury Department report released Monday. The government’s fiscal year runs from Oct. 1 to Sept. 30.

The budget deficit has continued to climb in recent years, raising concerns the country’s debt load of more than $21.5 trillion will grow out of control. The Treasury reported this month that the government paid $523 billion in total interest in fiscal 2018, the highest on record.
"Are you going to believe me or what you see with your own eyes?"

“It doesn’t matter what I do. People need to hear what I have to say. There’s no one else who can say what I can say. It doesn’t matter what I live.”
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Re:

16 Oct 2018 14:53

aphronesis wrote:http://kingsreview.co.uk/articles/farewell-neoliberalism-interview-wolfgang-streeck/

and for Busted

https://theintercept.com/2018/10/10/donald-trump-inherited-wealth/


As always, fantastic contribution, and I thank you for the link on Streeck.
ChewbaccaDefense
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16 Oct 2018 16:01

Yeah, I need to find more Streeck online. I read a book recently that critiques him but mostly at the level of emotional intent and attachments for those in the middle of this or that capitalism. It leaves his analyses of the structures and movements untouched.

So doesn’t amount to much.
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16 Oct 2018 17:52

A $779 billion dollar budget is scary..not just the numbers and American indebtedness as a subtext to everything in the culture.
.the 779 world have a positive note or two if the money were being spent on schools and education..not the current correspondence style were a student and employers find themselves disconnected after graduation..neither is desired by the other..779 wouldn't be so shameful if we didn't argue language..our country has homeless and under employment..it is very fragile and for most getting out is nearing impossible..in the places I have worked in the last few years going from homeless or underemployed to a suburb..not achievable..going from homeless to a studio or 1 bedroom apartment..maybe but I don't see it..so we can call it income inequality or affordable housing..I don't see the language as all that important..we are waiting to see what is going to happen in 10,20..25 years from now..?
If we give Trump a pass on climate change..hard sure but maybe needed..
We need to get things in place for our current crisis and it's ever growing,evolving dangers..
Watching Trump on 60 Minutes was one of the frightening things I have seen..he was less than clueless..
I watched author,Michael Lewis( Moneyball and others) this week on a press tour for his new book...if even @1% of what he has written is true..we are toast..really screwed
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Re:

17 Oct 2018 13:44

Unchained wrote:A $779 billion dollar budget is scary..not just the numbers and American indebtedness as a subtext to everything in the culture.
.the 779 world have a positive note or two if the money were being spent on schools and education..not the current correspondence style were a student and employers find themselves disconnected after graduation..neither is desired by the other..779 wouldn't be so shameful if we didn't argue language..our country has homeless and under employment..it is very fragile and for most getting out is nearing impossible..in the places I have worked in the last few years going from homeless or underemployed to a suburb..not achievable..going from homeless to a studio or 1 bedroom apartment..maybe but I don't see it..so we can call it income inequality or affordable housing..I don't see the language as all that important..we are waiting to see what is going to happen in 10,20..25 years from now..?
If we give Trump a pass on climate change..hard sure but maybe needed..
We need to get things in place for our current crisis and it's ever growing,evolving dangers..
Watching Trump on 60 Minutes was one of the frightening things I have seen..he was less than clueless..
I watched author,Michael Lewis( Moneyball and others) this week on a press tour for his new book...if even @1% of what he has written is true..we are toast..really screwed
The AP interview was actually worse.
AP: But scientists say this is nearing a point where this can't be reversed.

Trump: No, no. Some say that and some say differently. I mean, you have scientists on both sides of it. My uncle was a great professor at MIT for many years. Dr. John Trump. And I didn't talk to him about this particular subject, but I have a natural instinct for science, and I will say that you have scientists on both sides of the picture.
His natural scientific instincts have led him to believe that vaccines cause autism and that climate change is a hoax. You read the whole thing and it is clear this is not a person who is of sound mind. We are doomed.

Full transcript. https://pilotonline.com/news/government/nation/article_0a6aeddd-4288-5d90-aedb-75f013f66c51.html
None of us alone are as stupid as all of us together.
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17 Oct 2018 15:37

This unfortunately is way deeper than Dingy Donald..many disease strains that were almost gone in the U.S. are popping up all over.we may have to revisit Polio because we didn't learn the first time..sad but true..
All of us that have lived and traveled in the West long ago dismissed Trump's take on the environment 's ability to heal itself..Trump basically said if we all just wait..don't be so knee-jerk the earth will right itself..I remember flying into Denver and Phoenix and seeing a blanket of airborne sludge..in S.California days were kids took recess indoors because air quality was too bad for outdoor activities..I remember driving through Pomona and Commerce and the air was an orange -grey..a few hundred yards of visibility during midday..
Years ago I read Cradle to Cradle....a great,great book but included some scary facts..now worldwide we are seeing plastics in our water everywhere..coming out of the tap and in every part of the open ocean..
Trump suggesting..wait and see is a policy is completely poop.
This clod and his team of turds have not filled many let government positions..and in Trump's tiered pragmatism..you don't have to look far..the environment?..NFW..he hasn't hired an ambassador to Saudi Arabia or Korea(s)..so two years in he doesn't feel he is behind any schedule..
The guy is literally and figuratively asleep at the switch..
Unchained
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18 Oct 2018 00:57

I've always wanted to be a scientist so based on dt's assertion, I am going to apply for some jobs. The only thing on my resume will be that my uncle is a *scientist so I clearly have the instinct.

When he says that there are people on both sides, that's true. About 98% are on one side and the other 2% are on the other side of the flat, polluted earth.

*he has about 35 years of air glaciology research under his belt so you might guess what side my instinct is on.
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18 Oct 2018 07:26

Dirt..there are many things there..1st I hope you get a job as a Team Trump scientist..w your teaspoon of scientific knowledge..you will be an upgrade..I hope your math is wrong and 2vs98 is closer to.00001 % vs a logical world..
Trump called me today to explain many complicated issues..1st..many travel with a bone saw..pretty standard..
Mr. Khasshogi ..is probably camping or on an extended stand up paddle board trip..not to worry he will turn up
...last minute .marriage nervousness..don't you know..also Saudi family ensured Donald that the royal family body guards seen on camera were all at a House of Saud croquet tournament....mistaken identity..you know like Brett Kavanaugh..or Brett Favre..or Brett Michael..whatever..don't call for all that fake detail news BS.?
.Donald also explained clean coal and how after detailed talks Harley Davidson is introducing a clean coal motocross bike for the 2019 season..Trump told me that we will be sick of the bike wining so much..also Trump is putting a 20000000% tariff on Shimano parts..American groups will be featured world wide a Team Crest entering the Tour d France on paperboy bikes with the latest drum brake technology..developed at Sears Cycling Academy..all white riders of European ancestry..wool clothing..exclusively...
Also America is banning foreign foods..no food groups..Americans will eat porrage ..soup..no more queer food like pizza or sushi..and no tacos..
Trump has ordered that Frank Booth from Blue Velvet replace Mr Rogers and Big Bird..also Mr Trump explained how large Vlad's missile looks in his small hands..additionally Donald demands that more respect and government research go into the benefits of Korean music..boy band emphasis..w gang..gone style carefully studied to rid our land of MS13..or the band 311..
But 3 doors down really gets the ladies..or maybe not..you can just grab em by the pussy if you feel like it..
I think I have a crush on Eric Trump because I call for smart guys..
Black unemployment is very!!low
We are all sick of winning..
Don also told me that when they are apart that Melania demands that Donald sext her on the hour every hour
He told me she said if he was penniless she would still love and desire him
Unchained
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Re: U.S. Politics

18 Oct 2018 07:50

David Sloan Wilson is an evolutionary biologist known for his work on group selection. Here he talks about the failings of Adam Smith’s invisible hand metaphor:

Rational choice theory takes the invisible hand metaphor literally by trying to explain the length and breadth of human behavior on the basis of individual utility maximization, which is fancy talk for the narrow pursuit of self-interest. For the general public, unfettered competition has been turned into a moral virtue and “regulation” has become a sin.

The collapse of our economy for lack of regulation was preceded by the collapse of rational choice theory. It became clear that the single minimalistic principle of self-interest could not explain the length and breadth of human behavior. Economists started to conduct experiments to discover the actual preferences that drive human behavior. The field of experimental economics was born and two of its founders (Vernon Smith and Daniel Kahneman) were awarded the Nobel Prize in 2002.

Actual human preferences are all about regulation. A microcosm of America’s economic collapse can be created in the laboratory in a single afternoon. Yank a group of people off the street, give them a task that requires cooperation, and most of them will play along as solid citizens. Unfortunately, a few will game the system if there is any way to cheat. Once the solid citizens realize that they’re being ripped off, they withdraw their cooperation as their only defense. Provide them with an opportunity to punish the cheaters, and some (but not all) punish with zeal. Even the cheaters punish other cheaters with zeal! Once the capacity for regulation is provided in the form of rewards and punishments that can be implemented at low cost, cooperation rises to high levels. Regulation is required or cooperation will disappear, like water draining from a bathtub.


http://evonomics.com/death-invisible-hand-narrow-pursuit-self-interest-always-fails/?um_source=facebook&utm_campaign=organic
Merckx index
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18 Oct 2018 09:28

So regulation equals punishment? Evolutionary biology pitting behaviorism against 18 C market theory? Glad we cleared that up in an afternoon.

How about this?

https://jacobinmag.com/2018/10/rich-people-philanthropy-inequality-wealth
aphronesis
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18 Oct 2018 18:20

So I guess the Saudis will chalk up the fact that one of the 15 that was in Turkey to "interview" Kshashoggi..with a bone saw..was mysteriously killed in a car accident.as.just bad luck.
Unchained
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Re: U.S. Politics

19 Oct 2018 11:55

Merckx index wrote:David Sloan Wilson is an evolutionary biologist known for his work on group selection. Here he talks about the failings of Adam Smith’s invisible hand metaphor:

Rational choice theory takes the invisible hand metaphor literally by trying to explain the length and breadth of human behavior on the basis of individual utility maximization, which is fancy talk for the narrow pursuit of self-interest. For the general public, unfettered competition has been turned into a moral virtue and “regulation” has become a sin.

The collapse of our economy for lack of regulation was preceded by the collapse of rational choice theory. It became clear that the single minimalistic principle of self-interest could not explain the length and breadth of human behavior. Economists started to conduct experiments to discover the actual preferences that drive human behavior. The field of experimental economics was born and two of its founders (Vernon Smith and Daniel Kahneman) were awarded the Nobel Prize in 2002.

Actual human preferences are all about regulation. A microcosm of America’s economic collapse can be created in the laboratory in a single afternoon. Yank a group of people off the street, give them a task that requires cooperation, and most of them will play along as solid citizens. Unfortunately, a few will game the system if there is any way to cheat. Once the solid citizens realize that they’re being ripped off, they withdraw their cooperation as their only defense. Provide them with an opportunity to punish the cheaters, and some (but not all) punish with zeal. Even the cheaters punish other cheaters with zeal! Once the capacity for regulation is provided in the form of rewards and punishments that can be implemented at low cost, cooperation rises to high levels. Regulation is required or cooperation will disappear, like water draining from a bathtub.


http://evonomics.com/death-invisible-hand-narrow-pursuit-self-interest-always-fails/?um_source=facebook&utm_campaign=organic


Merckx, serious question: that blog post is written in the most general, universalizing terms, taking a controlled room experiment as singular evidence of how a certain strain of traditional economics (which is a fairly, hidebound, hermetic and unrealistic “science” in itself), what are the granular proposals for this one-size-fits-all change in human group behavior that has to take place? Especially when anyone remotely honest is well aware that markets have always been reliant on the state, more so since the advent of mercantilism, and that state levers are now bought and will need to be unless private power surpasses them outright.
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19 Oct 2018 17:54

Aphro...I as you often read have opinions based on slim self gathered science..I have seen a significant culture change in my lifetime.. first and foremost on education..as a small boy there were diploma mills advertised in the back of magazines and comics..we shifted.. instead of substandard education being a joke it's a new benchmark.. when Will Ferrell doing George Bush on Saturday Night Live said he received a Masters in fine art from the University of Phoenix online it was funny.. but it is not really a joke.. instead a reality..w huge social and financial consequences attached..
I might be stretching to say it's a universal want of all parents to want their children to receive a good education..
We see in America that shaming people without college degrees is just catching up with us.. because after all we need plumbers,Carpenters, electricians.. and our hair doesn't cut itself..and our yards and trash and steets are not self maintaining..
There was no shame in working for a living.. there is..or at least should be some shame in paying thousands of dollars to sit in your pajamas in front of a computer and receive a false..non meaningful diploma for your efforts..
The use of unlimited .. dangerous credit in the US..has the government and it's citizens colluding on a false reality.. because someone gives you an 8 dollar 3rd beer..a $60,000 dollar pickup, a $500,000 dollar house w a line of credit doesn't mean your worthy..
We don't have any steadfast societal norms only a growing degree of self absorbing need..a level of greed and delusion that is coming full circle..
The economic mind of spending because you can..is really not economics at all.. just a crazy irresponsible way of living..we have run up our personal credit debts across the board..cars, clothes, houses, things.. and useless education from diploma mills.. people walk the streets w degrees but can't balance a check book.. can't conceptually understand that getting driven or having it delivered is more expensive.. and possibly out of reach..
There is no such thing as an American economic anything.. just spend until you fail... repeat..
Allowing Trump to cut revenue and run up a $779 billion tab would only be crazy if this type of economic brain wasn't in 99% of American heads.. this is normal..
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Re: U.S. Politics

20 Oct 2018 00:24

aphronesis wrote:Merckx, serious question: that blog post is written in the most general, universalizing terms, taking a controlled room experiment as singular evidence of how a certain strain of traditional economics (which is a fairly, hidebound, hermetic and unrealistic “science” in itself), what are the granular proposals for this one-size-fits-all change in human group behavior that has to take place?


That is not a sentence, sorry, it just isn’t, and so much of what you post is like that. You seem to want to say that the experiment is evidence of how economics does or is something, but you leave out completely any reference to doing or being. Beyond that, you seem to be overthinking (again, something you frequently do) Wilson’s point: regulation is essential to cooperation. Without cooperation, there are no organized societies. If you want to challenge that conclusion, have at it, but Wilson, at least as far as this passage goes, is not trying to make any “granular (in plainer language, detailed) proposals” beyond that.

I’m not sure (clarity is not one of your strong points, not because you can’t be clear, but for some reason, you don’t seem to want to be), but I think your point is that regulation is not always beneficial, depending on who is doing the regulation. Sure, but using that as a criticism of Wilson is like rebutting someone who opposes anarchy on the grounds that governments are frequently corrupt.

Especially when anyone remotely honest is well aware that markets have always been reliant on the state, more so since the advent of mercantilism, and that state levers are now bought and will need to be unless private power surpasses them outright.


Again, this is irrelevant to Wilson’s point. The fact that economics and government are intertwined is a separate issue.

So regulation equals punishment? Evolutionary biology pitting behaviorism against 18 C market theory? Glad we cleared that up in an afternoon.


Punishment is one element of regulation. The two are hardly synonymous. Who said anything about behaviorism?
Merckx index
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20 Oct 2018 01:13

Fine. You want clarity? I think he’s stuck in an academic wormhole. It’s as much a sentence as it needs to be. Everyone knows that markets need regulation. Why go to Smith? 18th century economics isn’t really a relevant paradigm. Group experiments are the province of behavioral psychology; the preferred managerial science of neoliberalism. Of which I believe your author to be a kneejerk member. Translated, that means he can’t outthink the problem he’s addressing as he’s far too bound to the institutions, models and affective values of the greater structure that he’s trying (in rudimentary terms) to isolate and criticize. And because in his interdisciplinarity he’s cutting edge enough not to read that much political science.

A microcosm of the collapse cannot be rendered in a group experiment; there were manifold mechanisms and degrees of manipulation, complicity, indifference, etc. Group dynamics won’t give you that because the world’s immaterial operations can’t be distilled to a room. Bees?

So, an obvious conclusion, name dropping some heavy historical sources, citing an obscure current academic publication, a nod to a scientific demonstration of the obvious claim (group dynamics and bees) and a second, forward looking obvious conclusion with no concrete spefics as to how it can happen.

And what about these claims for metaphor as requiring Smith’s presence and demonstrating his relevance? None, and yet he takes it as a dominant. You know in Germany year 90, Godard played with the disconnect and overlap between theoretical ideology and its material manifestations. Your man treats them as unified, monolithic and total. Literary academics use the verb conflate—among others—to call out that sort of reduction, slippage or confusion. You know, the movements your author makes between material event (‘08 crash), metaphor (Smith), laboratory people and neighboring organisms. It’s either a methodological or a practical mess. Maybe both. Your call.

Sounds like an academic saying nothing to no one except maybe orher academics with no useful way to implement his banal totalizing conclusion in reality. Other than regulation metaphorized as punishment. Not very useful.

To what end?

How’s that?

As to clarity, there are several posters on the board who read me just fine most of the time. Or ask. Others like you seem to read and then bitch about it. Doesn’t seem as though the problem is mine. Same with undergrads: some take the lack of didacticism as participatory and run with it. Others get resentful and mumble curses (metaphorically) under their breath. It’s a diffferent behaviorist sorting experiment. Plus I’m not interested in arguing with people.

My point had nothing to do with regulation. No reason why you would think it did. If govt. and markets are a separate issue where’s the regulation going to come from? The people? Not much mention of that. Given that the crash came from deregulation, the appeal to regulation presumes what? Who? Same with the nod to a collapse of rational markets. Nothing I wrote was unavailable in the article you posted.
Last edited by aphronesis on 20 Oct 2018 02:52, edited 1 time in total.
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