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Re: Re:

19 Feb 2019 15:19

The Hitch wrote:
macbindle wrote:
The Hitch wrote:
macbindle wrote::lol: Yeah, I expect you think they were "classic liberals", which is the euphemism the far right is using currently.

Having watched a number of Peterson and Harris videos, my YouTube page is now flooded with the sort of sh1te you watch. I see where you get all your ideas from.
.


Strange response. Have you heard anything about Smolette in the last week?

Basically, it was the wrong example for you to use to try to beat me over the head about how wrong I am to question the rising fascism in the US narrative.

In fact its kind of the opposite. Shows more the fabricated hysteria side to this "rising far right fascist American" boogeyman. :o

But you want to talk about Harris and Peterson more all of a sudden? And then you try to bait me by calling classical liberals far right? All in such a short post? It's almost as if you were trying to push exactly the right buttons that would annoy. Thrown into a mini grenade instead of addressing the incident.

And I get it. You do not want talk about Smolette. :lol:



Ok, I've just had a hunt and found out that the police suspect Smollet may have staged the attack.

Guess what? The point still stands. None of that contradicts anything I have said except, possibly, the specific incident of Smollet. You'll find that hard to understand, I know, because in your mind this now means Charlottesville didn't happen.

To the bolded: You see this is exactly the sort of logical fallacy you make all of the time. I have not said "classical liberals" are far-right.



But yes, the new information that the attack was a hoax didn't change anything :cool:




Is this remotely proven yet?
Singer01
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19 Feb 2019 15:56

What does a white supremacist rally and an actor coming up with some police involved theatrics have to do with one another?
This is similar thinking to Trump and team..seeing anything AOC or Bernie Sanders have expressed and explained being related to Venezuela..?
If it turns out that the crimes in Chicago are fake..and superficial face cuts and abrasions were needed because special effects didn't go with the script..horrible.
But Heather Heyer is dead..murdered. That is not make believe or done w lighting.
There is nothing liberal,traditional or other about being murdered. There is no Republican or American value that says murdering a young woman or homosexual is okay.
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19 Feb 2019 15:58

I think the other point to make is that the neo-nazis marching in Charlottesville were not a figment of the imagination.
(Warning: Posts may contain traces of irony)
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Re: U.S. Politics

19 Feb 2019 15:58

trump the racist attracts another...racist..what a surprise. Eh Hitch?

https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2019/02/19/far-right-proud-boys-chairman-sat-behind-trump-his-latest-speech/?utm_term=.94f7fce590d3

lessee...McCabe is a traitor, national (non) emergency(think I'll go play golf now-trump), Alec Baldwin and NBC deserve some 'retribution' and Mueller ought to be arrested..forget anything?

This guy is a moron, and I tweeted same to him..not blocked yet..
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Re:

19 Feb 2019 16:24

Unchained wrote:What does a white supremacist rally and an actor coming up with some police involved theatrics have to do with one another?
This is similar thinking to Trump and team..seeing anything AOC or Bernie Sanders have expressed and explained being related to Venezuela..?
If it turns out that the crimes in Chicago are fake..and superficial face cuts and abrasions were needed because special effects didn't go with the script..horrible.
But Heather Heyer is dead..murdered. That is not make believe or done w lighting.
There is nothing liberal,traditional or other about being murdered. There is no Republican or American value that says murdering a young woman or homosexual is okay.


It’s happening in America, around you, every day, it is, therefore 21st century American. Time to put the big boy pants on and find new explanatory models.

The “beautiful soul” patter only goes so far.

https://www.eurozine.com/where-the-fires-are/
Last edited by aphronesis on 19 Feb 2019 16:31, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: U.S. Politics

19 Feb 2019 16:29

Great read..comparing to trump's folly and REAL national Emergencies
Trump’s vision of the southwest border as a lawless region teeming with immigrants, gangs, drug dealers, gun runners, human traffickers and terrorists trying to burst through and do the U.S. and its citizens harm underlies his insistence on a wall as the sine qua non of homeland security. This approach amounts to a willful misreading of the true threat landscape facing the U.S. nearly two decades after the 9/11 attacks.

Here are the facts about the 1,954-mile border between the U.S. and Mexico: illegal crossings are the lowest they’ve been in decades. Technologies like sensors and drones are being deployed to enhance the capabilities of the Border Patrol and are receiving increased funding in the recently signed appropriations bill. And all but around 50 miles of border barriers previously identified by experts as necessary have already been constructed. The small remainder crosses either private land or lands held by sovereign Indian nations, making their suitability for barrier construction very doubtful.


https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2019/02/19/trump-national-emergency-225163
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Re: Re:

19 Feb 2019 16:35

macbindle wrote:


I take back everything I said. Red Flanders is right....There is a problem with suppression of free speech in US academia.


I certainly hope you didn't actually doubt this. I assumed you were just stuck defending an indefensible position and decided to carry on.

Or maybe this post contains traces of irony, and is meant to suggest that this person should have been silenced? That this action doesn't have a chilling effect on speech in academia? That thought "crime" (no, no one is yet being sent to jail for such utterances) is a good thing?

“The tweets that have been reproduced again and again in reports on this case are not expressions of antisemitism,” he wrote, “but criticism of how charges of antisemitism are used to excuse otherwise inexcusable actions.”


Seems to be getting to the heart of things.

On another topic:

macbindle wrote:I think the other point to make is that the neo-nazis marching in Charlottesville were not a figment of the imagination.


I haven't been following, did someone suggest they were?
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19 Feb 2019 17:25

I’ll repost this as it’s the most succinct summary of the issues being debated

https://www.eurozine.com/where-the-fires-are/
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19 Feb 2019 17:25

@RF I'm not in favour of silencing except in extreme circumstances. I think our previous discussion centred around student protest, rather than a really tangible action such as this professor losing his post because he dared counter the current Israeli narrative.

With regards to Charlottesville, The Hitch was trying to downplay the significance of the events because it was two years ago.
(Warning: Posts may contain traces of irony)
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Re:

19 Feb 2019 17:48

aphronesis wrote:I’ll repost this as it’s the most succinct summary of the issues being debated

https://www.eurozine.com/where-the-fires-are/


Yes, that is pretty much bang on.
(Warning: Posts may contain traces of irony)
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Re:

19 Feb 2019 18:23

macbindle wrote:@RF I'm not in favour of silencing except in extreme circumstances. I think our previous discussion centred around student protest, rather than a really tangible action such as this professor losing his post because he dared counter the current Israeli narrative.

With regards to Charlottesville, The Hitch was trying to downplay the significance of the events because it was two years ago.


Thanks, appreciate the response. I would argue that speakers being scratched from campus engagements is tangible, though hardly rises to the seriousness of losing out on a job. But this was precipitated in part by student groups, so it's again the university caving to the tender sensibilities of students. Troubling.

RE: Charlottesville, not much to say other than it certainly exposed Trump and his followers as being way too close to the darkest side of American racism. His followers aren't all in that bucket, but they all know the bucket is sitting on their doorstep. That 35% + of the country still approves of that clown suggests that the ones who aren't actively racist are entirely too comfortable with it or in some form of denial.
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19 Feb 2019 19:35

If the university caves to the positions of students, it’s because the university is a business, managed by administrators who groom and also cater to their clients. If people stop clinging to humanist ideals and see this, then some work might be done.

As an employee of a university, school, or whatever, one’s speech is not free. This is completely bound to notions of “freedom” in market based neoliberalism as in the links I’ve been posting. If one wants to teach a class and frame a thought experiment around the Zionist state and apartheid conditions, they’re well within their rights to do so. Likely best to avoid personal judgments that moralize about oneself or any students.
Last edited by aphronesis on 19 Feb 2019 22:17, edited 2 times in total.
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Re:

19 Feb 2019 19:46

aphronesis wrote:I’ll repost this as it’s the most succinct summary of the issues being debated

https://www.eurozine.com/where-the-fires-are/


See but I don't think what US neoliberalsm wants, in a" return" to MY way, or the highway, should in any way be distinguished from fascism. "Free trade" has, after all, been American imperialism extended globally, with all the nationalistic agenda in the political, military and financial pressures it entails.
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19 Feb 2019 19:50

I just don’t think arguing an absolute ontology of fascism is useful. A geneaology sure, but this board is stuck in the first largely because of an unwillingness to see the financial and protectionist reach of the state for trade interests. And it’s hard to argue much of a unified fascist consciousness. More like an unconscious, inhuman, infrastructural apparatus that’s doing the work.
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Re:

19 Feb 2019 19:59

aphronesis wrote:I just don’t think arguing an absolute ontology of fascism is useful. A geneaology sure, but this board is stuck in the first.


It's only because they are spineless. Xenophobia, racism, exceptionalism, glorification of the armed forces (as I recently witnessed upon my trip at US airports), devotion to "OUR WAY OF LIFE" etc. It all smacks of fascism
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19 Feb 2019 20:06

I guess at a distance that would be easier to see. And Nietzsche’s texts describe the contemporary American psyche.

But this situation is also feeding on its own. And the forms of power are different.
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Re:

19 Feb 2019 20:11

aphronesis wrote:If you university caves to the positions of students, it’s because the university is a business, managed by administrators who groom and also cater to their clients. If people stop clinging to hold humanist ideals and see this, then some work might be done.

As an employee of a university, school, or whatever, one’s speech is not free. This is completely bound to notions of “freedom” in market based neoliberalism as in the links I’ve been posting. If one wants to teach a class and frame a thought experiment around the Zionist state and apartheid conditions, they’re well within their rights to do so. Likely best to avoid personal judgments that moralize about oneself or any students.


In short: the universities are corporations with paying customers to satisfy. Any type of curriculum that does not cater to contributing to the business world, or the sciences financed by it, is superfluous and shall be downgraded accordingly. The results in terms of critical thought and level of social awareness are plain to se to anyone without a vested interest, which means an extreme minority.
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Re:

19 Feb 2019 20:13

aphronesis wrote:I guess at a distance that would be easier to see. And Nietzsche’s texts describe the contemporary American psyche.

But this situation is also feeding on its own. And the forms of power are different.


Yea but those forms of power aren't cut in stone.
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Re:

20 Feb 2019 00:42

aphronesis wrote:I revel in the disaster that he is if it forces people out of their passivity.


@dirt, it’s more than rhetoric: changing the people and the system means changing the discourse of what people take as normative and possible, not just changing the people in the system. I put this stuff out there and kids run with it. You want to just go vote. Go vote. Why discuss at all then. Your part is finished.

The above arguments have been being made by complacent democrats since the 80s. How many decades do you need.

Kids were running with it big time back in ‘66, in Shanghai. Today ... flip a Mahjong tile on a busy corner, you’ll hit a kid in the forehead ... right in the NY of his Yankees cap ... ricocheting into his green tea ... Latte.

Red Guard to Star Buck.

Laugh or cry, Aphro?
Last edited by Alpe73 on 20 Feb 2019 02:07, edited 1 time in total.
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