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Re: Re:

20 Feb 2019 02:38

Alpe73 wrote:
aphronesis wrote:I revel in the disaster that he is if it forces people out of their passivity.


@dirt, it’s more than rhetoric: changing the people and the system means changing the discourse of what people take as normative and possible, not just changing the people in the system. I put this stuff out there and kids run with it. You want to just go vote. Go vote. Why discuss at all then. Your part is finished.

The above arguments have been being made by complacent democrats since the 80s. How many decades do you need.

Kids were running with it big time back in ‘66, in Shanghai. Today ... flip a Mahjong tile on a busy corner, you’ll hit a kid in the forehead ... right in the NY of his Yankees cap ... ricocheting into his green tea ... Latte.

Red Guard to Star Buck.

Laugh or cry, Aphro?


I teach in the liberal arts. I imagine your familiarity with that may be a bit kitschy and undeveloped and I get that you’re stuck in the cultural equivalent of a mancave, but I’ve had more interesting stalkers than you.

No one thinks the 60s are coming back, least of all the kids. Now you might have missed it but they’re generally more progressive than your politics appear to be and change isn’t expected to be achieved by the same means.

But you might not be too aware. Yankees cap? Maybe in the FiDi bars and the UW/E sides. Sure you’d love those. Go get some lap dances with the bros.

You need something?


Edited by King Boonen: Please keep it civil.
aphronesis
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Re: Re:

20 Feb 2019 09:24

rhubroma wrote:
aphronesis wrote:I guess at a distance that would be easier to see. And Nietzsche’s texts describe the contemporary American psyche.

But this situation is also feeding on its own. And the forms of power are different.


Yea but those forms of power aren't cut in stone.


https://www.truthdig.com/articles/when-a-climate-scientist-resisted-the-trump-administrations-censorship/

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/books/2018/may/20/how-democracy-ends-david-runciman-review-trump
aphronesis
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Re:

20 Feb 2019 14:04

jmdirt wrote:https://www.npr.org/2019/02/19/695954246/trump-officials-tried-to-rush-nuclear-technology-to-saudis-house-panel-finds


Another example of 'mob boss' trump trying to sell stuff, even tho it's against the law..what a shock. :surprised:
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Re: Re:

20 Feb 2019 14:07

rhubroma wrote:
aphronesis wrote:I just don’t think arguing an absolute ontology of fascism is useful. A geneaology sure, but this board is stuck in the first.


It's only because they are spineless. Xenophobia, racism, exceptionalism, glorification of the armed forces (as I recently witnessed upon my trip at US airports), devotion to "OUR WAY OF LIFE" etc. It all smacks of fascism


Of course it does, just like it did in 1930s Germany..I wonder how long before trump has a uniform made for him..
Richard Spencer — coiner of the phrase 'alt-right' — infamously yelled "Hail, Trump! Hail, our people! Hail, victory!" at a gathering shortly after the US presidential election in 2016.

He elicited cheers and Hitler salutes from the crowd of like-minded patriots.

But he also provoked derisive laughter from some liberal observers, who dismissed him and his acolytes as strutting clowns in Nazi drag.

Nobody was laughing nine months later when hundreds of neo-Nazis, white nationalists and anti-Semites — many of them armed with semiautomatic weapons — marched through the streets of Charlottesville, Virginia at the Unite the Right rally in August 2017.
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20 Feb 2019 14:29

https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/fox-news-rejects-national-ad-oscar-nominated-anti-nazi-documentary-1186379
Fox News has rejected a national advertising buy for a 30-second spot that warns viewers about the potential dangers of American fascism after an ad sales representative said network leadership deemed it inappropriate, The Hollywood Reporter has learned.

The spot was to double as a promotion of this year's Oscar-nominated documentary short A Night at the Garden, which recounts a 1939 Nazi rally in New York City, and a warning — "It Can Happen Here" — to Sean Hannity's largely conservative viewers about the potential dangers of President Donald Trump's brand of populism.
...

"The film shines a light on a time when thousands of Americans fell under the spell of a demagogue who attacked the press and scapegoated minorities using the symbols of American patriotism," Night at the Garden director Marshall Curry said in a statement to THR.

He added, "It’s amazing to me that the CEO of Fox News would personally inject herself into a small ad buy just to make sure that Hannity viewers weren’t exposed to this chapter of American history.”
"Are you going to believe me or what you see with your own eyes?"

Don't mention Khashoggi! It’s a collusion witch hoax!
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20 Feb 2019 14:50

The mass murder in Illinois is revealing that the act of killing can actually get uglier. The killer,a convict who should have not been able to purchase a gun bought one after a botched check.
The convict w the illegal weapon applied for a concealed carry permit,during that research and approval process he was "told" to surrender all his weapons to the police.
He obviously didn't
So who goes down for the negligence part of this disaster? Who from the police followed up? What DA decided not to prosecute a felon who not only knowingly bought a gun illegally,but filled out multiple government forms saying he was never convicted of a crime and had nothing in his background that would disqualify him from owning a gun.
Someone didn't do their job and now people are dead.
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Re: Re:

20 Feb 2019 15:25

aphronesis wrote:
rhubroma wrote:
aphronesis wrote:I guess at a distance that would be easier to see. And Nietzsche’s texts describe the contemporary American psyche.

But this situation is also feeding on its own. And the forms of power are different.


Yea but those forms of power aren't cut in stone.


https://www.truthdig.com/articles/when-a-climate-scientist-resisted-the-trump-administrations-censorship/

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/books/2018/may/20/how-democracy-ends-david-runciman-review-trump


1920s/30s fascism was naional socialism, so that's clearly not the case with the 21st century US. Although I suppose a case could be made that government sponsored corporate welfare is just liberal capitalism's form of "national socialism."

It's clear, therefore, when speaking of fascism today we're not talking about a universal ontology. But Runciman is kidding himself if he thinks, because of the clear differences between then and now, democracy (because democracy) is immune from such (new) forms of nationalism and authoritarianism insidiously taking control of the state. In many ways they're already present; from technological forms of citizen profiling, to the stigmatization/repression of unfettered accademic expression (as with Caffrey), to the renewal of a police, or "security" state and the scapegoating of foreign "contagions" for national woes and as threats to the country's intergrity.

Thus what gets me is after that brief interlude of 60s epoch antireactionary movements and in the wake of the "end of ideologies" in 89, somehow fascism becomes antiquated when contemplating the status of Americana in the present. In reality it's very current and real.
Last edited by rhubroma on 20 Feb 2019 17:23, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Re:

20 Feb 2019 16:38

aphronesis wrote:
Alpe73 wrote:
aphronesis wrote:I revel in the disaster that he is if it forces people out of their passivity.


@dirt, it’s more than rhetoric: changing the people and the system means changing the discourse of what people take as normative and possible, not just changing the people in the system. I put this stuff out there and kids run with it. You want to just go vote. Go vote. Why discuss at all then. Your part is finished.

The above arguments have been being made by complacent democrats since the 80s. How many decades do you need.

Kids were running with it big time back in ‘66, in Shanghai. Today ... flip a Mahjong tile on a busy corner, you’ll hit a kid in the forehead ... right in the NY of his Yankees cap ... ricocheting into his green tea ... Latte.

Red Guard to Star Buck.

Laugh or cry, Aphro?


I teach in the liberal arts. I imagine your familiarity with that may be a bit kitschy and undeveloped and I get that you’re stuck in the cultural equivalent of a mancave, but I’ve had more interesting stalkers than you.

No one thinks the 60s are coming back, least of all the kids. Now you might have missed it but they’re generally more progressive than your politics appear to be and change isn’t expected to be achieved by the same means.

But you might not be too aware. Yankees cap? Maybe in the FiDi bars and the UW/E sides. Sure you’d love those. Go get some lap dances with the bros.

You need something?

Edited by King Boonen: Please keep it civil.


I don't want to cause you any grief, Aphro, but you seem to see antagonizers as anyone who doesn't quench one's thirst, beholdingly and unquestioningly, with the daily readings you put on reserve.

You are quite reactive, rather sensitive (stalking? :lol: ) and sooner or later ... you'll insult most posters here with tags like loser, dipshit, Valverde worshipper :surprised: or those trying to 'speak above their pay grade.' :geek: Why? I can't recall such insults being hurled your way.

BTW, you get an F for Profiling. OK … will give you a D- for pegging me as male.
Cheap beers? Lap dancing? And the most egregious of all "barbecuer!!!" :surprised:
WTF is that all about, man?

You missed my point entirely. For someone with a LA background, I thought you could read for understanding and nuance. WTF do NY bars have to do with my post? You haven't travelled much?

Maybe lighten up a bit, man. Peace.
Alpe73
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20 Feb 2019 16:56

Look man. I don’t care what people do. Read the links or not, but if so at least understand them if you want to argue with me.

You see Rhub arguing with me? I do. You see him with a grasp on what’s being discussed? I do.

I didn’t say Valverde worshipper. Go read the post. and see what I said in the context of systemic change. See you couldn’t even keep that straight. Think you have something greater to say? I don’t.


And go read yours in the clinic re. profiling and tell me I’m wrong. This thread has a history of being contentious. Re. stalkers it also has a history of people who show up and only respond to my posts in incoherent ways for their own entertainment, not because they care. Sounds like you. Sounds like you following me around the clinic actually.

My agenda here is basic and clear: left politics in the present. If you want to disagree with that then produce a little more than Mah Jong tiles ind Yankees hats. In your case the insult stands. Reinforced by the fact that you waited for editing to respond. Gives great credibility to the tough guy stance.

Everything you’ve posted in this theead indicates that you find the discussions threatening and open to dispute, but you lack the chops to say how or why. On a basic human level, I have compassion for that. From an adult and political level I don’t. This thread is a reasonable place to make that distinction with anyone who claims they’re discussing politics.
aphronesis
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Re: Re:

20 Feb 2019 17:36

rhubroma wrote:
aphronesis wrote:
rhubroma wrote:
aphronesis wrote:I guess at a distance that would be easier to see. And Nietzsche’s texts describe the contemporary American psyche.

But this situation is also feeding on its own. And the forms of power are different.


Yea but those forms of power aren't cut in stone.


https://www.truthdig.com/articles/when-a-climate-scientist-resisted-the-trump-administrations-censorship/

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/books/2018/may/20/how-democracy-ends-david-runciman-review-trump


1920s/30s fascism was naional socialism, so that's clearly not the case with the 21st century US. Although I suppose a case could be made that government sponsored corporate welfare is just liberal capitalism's form of "national socialism."

It's clear, therefore, when speaking of fascism today we're not talking about a universal ontology. But Runciman is kidding himself if he thinks, because of the clear differences between then and now, democracy (because democracy) is immune from such (new) forms of nationalism and authoritarianism insidiously taking control of the state. In many ways they're already present; from technological forms of citizen profiling, to the stigmatization/repression of unfettered accademic expression (as with Caffrey), to the renewal of a police, or "security" state and the scapegoating of foreign "contagions" for national woes and as threats to the country's intergrity.

Thus what gets me is after that brief interlude of 60s epoch antireactionary movements and in the wake of the "end of ideologies" in 89, somehow fascism becomes antiquated when contemplating the status of Americana in the present. In reality it's very current and real.


Well except for the fact that corporations want state sponsorship even as they take actions that destabilizwe the autonomies of state and “freedom.” I don’t think Runciman believes that democracy is immune, but that the new hybrid form isn’t fascism. Academic expression can be anti-capitalist, much less anti state.
I think more than the 60s, it was ‘89 that let the 40s fall into the past.

As to your larger point, there’s such an utter lack of negatively critical studies of America that to import fascism as an explanatory model is too much but for some French, Belgians and Italians (Spanish, Greeks) who never stopped thinking about it.
aphronesis
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Re: Re:

20 Feb 2019 18:21

aphronesis wrote:
rhubroma wrote:
aphronesis wrote:
rhubroma wrote:
aphronesis wrote:I guess at a distance that would be easier to see. And Nietzsche’s texts describe the contemporary American psyche.

But this situation is also feeding on its own. And the forms of power are different.


Yea but those forms of power aren't cut in stone.


https://www.truthdig.com/articles/when-a-climate-scientist-resisted-the-trump-administrations-censorship/

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/books/2018/may/20/how-democracy-ends-david-runciman-review-trump


1920s/30s fascism was naional socialism, so that's clearly not the case with the 21st century US. Although I suppose a case could be made that government sponsored corporate welfare is just liberal capitalism's form of "national socialism."

It's clear, therefore, when speaking of fascism today we're not talking about a universal ontology. But Runciman is kidding himself if he thinks, because of the clear differences between then and now, democracy (because democracy) is immune from such (new) forms of nationalism and authoritarianism insidiously taking control of the state. In many ways they're already present; from technological forms of citizen profiling, to the stigmatization/repression of unfettered accademic expression (as with Caffrey), to the renewal of a police, or "security" state and the scapegoating of foreign "contagions" for national woes and as threats to the country's intergrity.

Thus what gets me is after that brief interlude of 60s epoch antireactionary movements and in the wake of the "end of ideologies" in 89, somehow fascism becomes antiquated when contemplating the status of Americana in the present. In reality it's very current and real.


Well except for the fact that corporations want state sponsorship even as they take actions that destabilizwe the autonomies of state and “freedom.” I don’t think Runciman believes that democracy is immune, but that the new hybrid form isn’t fascism. Academic expression can be anti-capitalist, much less anti state.
I think more than the 60s, it was ‘89 that let the 40s fall into the past.

As to your larger point, there’s such an utter lack of negatively critical studies of America that to import fascism as an explanatory model is too much but for some French, Belgians and Italians (Spanish, Greeks) who never stopped thinking about it.


The corporations are the state. Among Mussolini's ministry buildings in late 1930's Rome was the Ministero delle Corporazioni on Via Veneto (where the US Embassy is to be found, go figure), which was Fascim's answer to capitalist exploitation and Marxist class hatred. Remove "capitalist exploitation" from the equation and you hit smack dab at the pulsating heart of Washington. Tis true, in all appearances a significant difference, far less so though when we realize that the same military-industrial block (and banking) was/is at the center of both states. Waving flags to boot.

My reference to "fascism" in the broader context is simply a way of calling the proverbial spade a spade, in finding it incumbent upon themselves to defend the nation's honor through metaphorical punative strikes and by wielding the truncheon, as at "the wall."

PS. Confronted with neofascism can one hardly blame them, my dear boy?
Last edited by rhubroma on 20 Feb 2019 18:40, edited 4 times in total.
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20 Feb 2019 18:34

In many ways I agree with you. This could be seen coming well before Trump. In some ways I don’t care in that isms aren’t my thing.

The military remains a constant but its ability to make war is considerably different. Is that due to the differences between the mercantile and financialized state? In part. Same with transformations in rights, profiling, surveillance, etc. There it’s more a difference of surveillance then vs. control now.

And now there’s no Marxist or otherwise organized class hatred. (Actually I saw an article last night that Marxism has to also leave white males to find new cogency. Banks then could fail. Not now.

And the current exploitation is biopolitical/biotechnological.

It’s not just semantics or terminology, I think these differences play out differently.

But maybe your long view will hold in some years. Either way the trajectory will get clarified.
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20 Feb 2019 19:06

Right, now neo-fascism gets somewhere because as with most historical repetitions, there’s continuity and disconnection. Even the threat of other is more at the level of having than being.
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Re:

20 Feb 2019 19:46

aphronesis wrote:Right, now neo-fascism gets somewhere because as with most historical repetitions, there’s continuity and disconnection. Even the threat of other is more at the level of having than being.


"Having (rather) than being," perhaps you refer to my post about the problem of higher education. At any rate, there may be continuity in the transition (more than continuity and disconnection, if I may)
Last edited by rhubroma on 20 Feb 2019 19:51, edited 1 time in total.
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20 Feb 2019 19:49

You’ve used the phrase in a few posts. It may have first appeared in Debord’s “Society of the Spectacle”. In any case I mean it at the so called level of “threat” to national belonging.
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Re:

20 Feb 2019 21:00

aphronesis wrote:In many ways I agree with you. This could be seen coming well before Trump. In some ways I don’t care in that isms aren’t my thing.

The military remains a constant but its ability to make war is considerably different. Is that due to the differences between the mercantile and financialized state? In part. Same with transformations in rights, profiling, surveillance, etc. There it’s more a difference of surveillance then vs. control now.

And now there’s no Marxist or otherwise organized class hatred. (Actually I saw an article last night that Marxism has to also leave white males to find new cogency. Banks then could fail. Not now.

And the current exploitation is biopolitical/biotechnological.

It’s not just semantics or terminology, I think these differences play out differently.

But maybe your long view will hold in some years. Either way the trajectory will get clarified.


I have no long view to hold. I'd say, to the bold, militarily speaking we need to become accustomed to more or less proxy wars, for the market and finance, against third world countries we can bludgeon, or else to contain our rivals, in the name of democracy, to avoid armageddon. So long as that's viable.
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Re:

20 Feb 2019 21:29

Robert5091 wrote:How long before new attorney general William Barr pulls plug on Mueller probe? A week?


Well that did n't take long - bury it! The old Trump tactic of "sealed" court decisions.
https://www.rawstory.com/2019/02/trump-says-totally-bill-barr-make-muellers-report-public/
President Donald Trump on Wednesday said the decision whether to release special counsel Robert Mueller’s report will be made by his new attorney general.

“That’ll be totally up to the new attorney general. He’s a tremendous man, a tremendous person who really respects this country and respects the Justice Department,” Trump told reporters in the Oval Office.

CNN reported Wednesday Barr is preparing to receive special counsel Robert Mueller’s report as early as next week.
"Are you going to believe me or what you see with your own eyes?"

Don't mention Khashoggi! It’s a collusion witch hoax!
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20 Feb 2019 21:57

US hate groups have seen ideas enter mainstream in Trump era, report finds

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/feb/20/trump-hate-groups-ideas-spread-report-southern-poverty-law-center?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Copy_to_clipboard

I daresay one of our forum's apologists will be along shortly to shoot the messenger.

"Another similar recent report from the Anti-Defamation League suggested that extremist murders in the United States in 2018 were carried out almost exclusively by the far right."

....but hey, it's the left that is the problem ;)
(Warning: Posts may contain traces of irony)
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Re:

20 Feb 2019 22:21


....but hey, it's the left that is the problem ;)


That's the radical left ... ;)
"Are you going to believe me or what you see with your own eyes?"

Don't mention Khashoggi! It’s a collusion witch hoax!
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