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01 Mar 2016 13:38

My Gott! The Jesuit order was suppressed by Pope Clement XIV in 1773 at the behest of the monarchies! Tomasi de Lampedusa's novel was polemical against the results of unification, because it didn't resolve the southern question, which remained hopelessly backwards as a result of a still feudal setup imposed on it by the powers of the bourbon monarchy and the clergy! It is essential to understand this to avoid being lead astray by the error of analysis the above poster made. Although if you want a broader picture of how subaltern classes were abused by the powerful (i.e the priests and the nobles), read Manzoni's The Betrothed. At any rate, the piteous status of the superstitious and ignorant southerners at the time as a result, can be plainly understood by just looking up The Vow by Francesco Paolo Michetti. The truth speaks for itself (other than decent liturgical celebration)! So what alternative did Cavour and Garibaldi have? The south never had a merchant class, never had exposure, nor guilds. The papal belt kept them cut off from the rest of the Continent and hence progress. Besides even Lincoln was pressed into making a similar deal.

That's what politicking means you know. :rolleyes: So it is exactly as I have previously stated and not just in regards to the southern question, but the whole of Catholic Europe through the post-war era. It is tedious to have to repeat myself, but unavoidable at this moment: "All you need to know about Echoes viewpoint is his opinion on Bruno expressed above. It reminds me of a Europe that truly has reached the age of senilty. Think about this when just three generations ago Catholic Europe was basically a society of illiterate peasants, miners and factory workers which just exited from 20 years of fascism, with the Church at home, a puny and parochial bourgeois. In some places like Italy there was no revolution other than the Risorgimento, made by a courageous few and an able, though politicking, Cavour. They were good, but ignorant workers, poor, uneducated and submissive to the clergy and their masters." ;)

Pius IX contrived papal infallability and got general Oudinot (because it was politically expedient to Napoleon III) to squash the free Roman Republic in 1849, which was founded upon in primus universal suffrage (men and women), freedom of worship and was the first state to abolish the death penalty. By contrast the reestablished papa-re effected an all-out persecution campaign against his adversaries. All liberals were sent into exile (in this he even anticipated Mussolini!). The currency was devalued by 35%. Properties were restored to the nobility. Education was placed exclusively back into the hands of the clergy. Despotism was reorganized, taxes increased, mortgage and rent payments increased tenfold. The widespread misery and suffering for all but the clerical orders and nobility visibly grew in every angle and order of the state. The Ghetto was once again closed and public executions by bludgeoning were renewed at Piazza San Salvatore in Lauro and Piazza del Popolo for Christ's sake! Monsignor de Mérode was a slimmy, little real estate speculator, whose lust for profit was only surpassed by his zeal to irrevocably mutilate Rome's urban fabric. I am reminded of this every time I walk through the Esquiline quarter, which I always try to avoid, from Termini station to the center along the incomparably ugly Via Nazionale. This development boom entailed the annihilation of Villa Montalto-Peretti. Well we've got de Mérode to thank for that! Pecunia non olet!!

It's ironic that the poster who cites Pius IX as a renewer of the guilds and de Mérode as a champion of papal authoritarianism, does so as a measure of their moral good will toward the underclass. Whereas anyone with half a brain is well aware that the ecclessiastical elite has always worked with the southern princes and Mafia bosses. Why just as recently as 2012 in the town of Castellammare di Stabia, south of Naples, the yearly procession celebrating its patron saint, San Castello, took to stopping under the balcony of the local crime boss, Renato Raffone!

Furthermore, as working-class family life was breaking down in the eighteenth and early nineteenth centuries, the Enlightenment ideas stressing education and the importance of childhood began to change attitudes to child labor, initially in the Netherlands then elsewhere. Meanwhile the capitalists ideologically sanctified child labor as educationally sound and beneficial to the working classes. But when the Dutch government introduced the Miner's Act of 1813 and then began avocating compulsory education, Roman Catholic priests began expressing their concern. In the 1840's fearing nonreligious state education, both antirevolutionaries (which means the aristocrats &#128528) and Catholic clergy opposed compulsory education on the grounds that it would infringe upon the authority of fathers...other than "free Jesuit education." Besides their only concern was the propaganda fide! In any case, they made tons more as a non-profit organization in terms of social contol. If we don't recognize this fact, we might just as well think that Marx and Engels gave Belgian workers too much beer. And that the mass roundabout regathered the flock as inhebriated consumers, which rendered the sheep useful idiots in the transhumance of capitalist explotation and profit. But this is merely repulsive.
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Re: God and Religion

02 Mar 2016 20:03

Good grief!! Everybody knows that the Jesuit Order had between suppressed by Enlightened Despot across Europe before those same Enlightened despots and Enlightened ministers urged the (weak) Pope to universally suppress it. Many colleges closed after that.

We all know that 1773 is in the era of Enlightened Despotism. In "Enlightened Despotism" you have the word "ENLIGHTENED". The Enlightenment of course first stroke under the monarchies in order to implement their liberal/capitalist theories.

This is particularly true in France. In 1774, Turgot took advantage of King Louis XVI's inexperience to liberalise the price of grain. That was a huge revolution. Turgot was a man of the Enlightenment. He had contributed to Diderot's Encyclopedia. Voltaire was over the moon when he heard the news that Turgot was in power. Until then, the King was always seen as the "Feeding Father" of the people, he always perceived to make sure that the people had enough to eat, that the price of bread was affordable to anyone, therefore the state fixed it. There were famines only in times of war and epidemics. With Turgot in power, the market would determine the price of bread. Very soon, the family fathers no longer could afford to feed their family ...

... That is how Enlightenment's Turgot came up with the brilliant idea to send children to factory to work, I repeat to WORK! in order for them to pay for the food that their father no long could afford. Jeeez, the Enlightenment stressed education and the importance of childhood... :rolleyes: What the hell is that crap! Both Voltaire & Rousseau were of the opinion that "simple-minded" peasants ought never to get instruction!

Il faut que la lumière descende par degrés. Celle du bas peuple sera toujours confuse. Ceux qui sont occupé à gagner leur vie, ne peuvent l'être d'éclairer leur esprit


"The light should come down gradually. The light of the lower people will always be confused. Those who are busy earning their bread cannot be busy enlightening their minds."

Voltaire exposed in all his arrogance (from his "Correspondances").

During the French Revolution a school system was planned in which children of age 5 to 12 were meant to be taught to ... work in the industry. The boys were meant to work the land (because those Jacobines remember that the 80% of the population was peasant), to cut stones in order to build roads, girls were sent to the textile industry. They were apprentices at age 5 to 12. They were of course also meant to be endoctrinated about the positive aspects of the Revolution, etc. After all that they sure merely had time to learn to read and write correctly. That was the Michel Lepeletier project. Robespierre clapped the hands when he learned about that project. That is the true spirit of the French Revolution.

It's the Church that stressed education. There had been free primary schools since the Middle Ages, the Council of Trent and the advent of the Jesuit Order in the 16th century started free secundary school. An edict by Louis XIV in 1695 made it compulsory of each parish in France to have its own school. We are 118 years before the Dutch parliamentary monarchy (system based on census voting and usury!)

The Enlightenment changed attitude to child labour (with a 'u' in good BrE), my a*rse! Child Labour in Belgium was not scrapped until 1889 in Belgium for 9-year-old kids and until 1914 for 14-year-old kids. By that time, the Church social doctrine had developed. It's the Church's social doctrine that abolished it, in Belgium. The clergy had surrendered to the Capitalists (which means to the Enlightenment!) but not such reactionary social-corporatist Catholics such as René de la Tour du Pin or Albert de Mun who had been working on some form of revival of the workingmen's guilds that the Enlightenment suppressed too! It had been long to repair the damage done, actually it's not yet repaired. The suppression of the workingmen's guilds is most certainly the most disgusting law of the whole French Revolution. The guilds were labour organizations which gathered together workers of the same sector of activity in order to defend their own interests, those guildsmen enjoy all the benefits of what is currently known as the welfare state (there were retirement funds, social insurances in case of an illness, a working accident, etc.; the working class Under the feudal regime was NOT exploited like in the 19th century; besides they had numerous days off, guaranteed by the Church!)
March 2 & 17 1791, the d'Allarde Decree suppressed all kinds of Guilds and "compagnonnage" in France. The decree was backed by the Le Chapelier Law which prohibited any kind of working coalition, which means de facto any trade unions or strikes. This is an unspeakably violent law! And there are no still Tools in France to believe that the French Revolution was carried out BY the people and FOR the people. As a matter of fact it was carried out BY the bourgeois AGAINST the people, period. The most villainous aspect of the d'Allarde decree is that it includes the confiscation of all the goods of these guilds, which means that all the money that workers had hoarded up for centuries were instantl being stolen by the bourgeois secularist state. After 1795, the French invaded Belgium and exported those infamous laws to my country and the repression that ensued was merciless. Many workers organised clandestine guilds but they soon were to be arrested by these atheists ... The workers were now unprotected, alone against the market and this for a whole century. The situation in Belgian factories in the late 19th century was undescribable. Workers already had their bodies ... decaying alive! It's an abomination.

It's Pope Pius IX's credit to have sought to revive those guilds. Even though it did not work, it should be an inspiration to all of us who care for the labouring class. Pius VII was the one to scrap it in the Papal States but that was because he was at Buonaparte's mercy. Buonaparte was also an atheistic Voltairian bourgeois whose code reinforced the discrimination of the workers against their employers. Beside giving the power of money creation to private bankers...

Mérode as a prelate was a generous man who built the Campo pretoriano at his own expense. The dark side of Mérode was his past in Algeria where befriended some of the secularist French colonialists.

2012 is in an era when the Vatican had turned atheistic, 47 years after the Vatican II Council. Atheists paying tribute to Raffone is none of my business.
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Re: God and Religion

03 Mar 2016 12:55

A tragedy, no doubt, but at the same time a comedy--a perfect perfidious comedy.

When I said the Enlightenment philosophies began to change the mindset in the Netherlands first, I was of course thinking of the groundwork laid by Baruch Spinoza, whose anti-obscurantist positions naturally got his invaluable work put on the Catholic Church's Index of Forbidden Books (Index Librorum Prohibitorum). Spinoza wrote: "The highest activity a human being can attain is learning for understanding, because to understand is to be free." By contrast if you were to have talked to a Jesuit missionary back from Goa at about this time, you'd have been told about the "miraculous" state in which Francesco Saverio's corpse had been blessedly preserved. The church of il Gesù in Rome to this day houses the forearm of the saint in a gilded reliquary!

The Company of Jesus had engendered hostility toward itself ever since the Jesuit college reared Jean Chàtel's failed assassination attempt of Henry IV of France, who was eventually murdered by the novice Francois Ravaillac in 1610. Henry IV, who is best remembered for his phrase Paris vaut bien une messe ("Paris is well worth a mass"), was an ex-Huguenot converted to Catholicism, but who nonetheless retained an ample religious outlook. Not per chance consequently in 1598 did Henry issue the Edict of Nantes, one of the first examples of religious tolerance that gave Protestants freedom of cult in his kingdom. For this reason he became the target of Jesuit scorn and its eventual Mafioso strike tactics.

Of course Ignatius of Loyola (Ignacio de Loyola), the founder of the order, epitomized the militant zeal by which Catholic nobles across the Continent would wage war against Protestants, and this was the very reason behind Henry's humane and sensed promulgation of religious tolerance. This Spanish knight from the Basque nobility led a fierce band of warrior-priest-nobleman almost as strict and austere as Loyola himself, who were never more implacable than when fighting for their beliefs. They fought religious wars not only in Germany, but above all in France, where Protestants were known as Huguenots. In 1572 the French queen invited all the Huguenot nobles to a wedding court and, on the eve of St. Bartholomew, she had them all massacred. Unsurprisingly the infamous episode is treated in monumental fresco on the walls of the Vatican Sala Regia. If I wished, I could write many more paragraphs about the wars between Catholics and Protestants. But I won't.

What's important to recognize is that the Jesuits within decades of their order's institution, had already acquired a horrible reputation for themselves. Chatel's conviction demonstrates this. After the incursion of the Jesuit college at Clermont, the French authorities were provided good cause to curb the order's unwelcome political intrusions and excessive pedagogical activism. The Company of Jesus's reputation further deteriorated by the sensational case of Marie-Catherine Cadière and her Jesuit confessor, Jean-Baptiste Girard, at Aix-en-Provence in 1731. Father Girard had abused her sexually, got her pregnant and performed sorcery on her, for which he was merely transferred. It sounds familiar, I know. The Englishman, Jeremy Jingle, metaphorically analyzed the affair in a satirical light in his libellus, Spiritual Fornication.

The infamy with which the Jesuits were looked upon was further enhanced by their presumed proximity to occult practices, sorcery and alchemy, as well as the subtle casuistry and logical premises with which they sought to deceive and defraud their pupils. Manzoni captured that in a dramatic light, for which he was derided by French Jesuits as ce déplorable Manzon. It's not by chance, furthermore, that Alexander Dumas will endow Aramis with the Machiavellian audacity that got him nominated Superior General of the Jesuit Order. Every step forward must be used to climb to greater power. However, the most insistent criticism against the order had always been of practicing bad morals. Pascal's polemic with the Jansenists in the 'Provincial Letters' makes this unequivocal. The order became an outrage. Despite Clement XIII putting Rousseau's Encyclopédie on the Index , Jesuit interference in public affairs in France, Spain, Portugal and Naples, left Pope Clement XIV with no choice but to supress the Company. A rumor circulated that this pope was then poisoned by some of its former members.

The idea of the king as pater patria, who takes care of and provides for his children, would actually be uplifting, were it not set against the absolute power and court excesses which the French king obtained through the cunning of his eminence, Cardinal Richelieu, in the wake of the Thirty Years War. Richelieu's successor and guardian of the young Roi Soleil, Louis XIV, Cardinal Mazarin, allowed for the king to be viewed as brighter than Apollo whose warmth and light all life depended. The vast sums, however, that were required to sustain such a monarchy, like the pharaoh, led French finance ministers to become expert swindlers. Where the money came from didn't concern them. The peasants worked till they dropped and the citizens were forced to pay huge taxes. Louis XIV's incompetent and myopic successors wanted nothing to do with the writings of the French intelligentsia, with whom even Catherine of Russia held a regular epistolary exchange. Decadence always precedes the end. Things could not continue like that. Yet things did continue like that. The revolution was thus a foregone conclusion.
Last edited by rhubroma on 04 Mar 2016 20:47, edited 4 times in total.
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03 Mar 2016 15:36

oops wrong thread.

I think the ancient aliens were well ahead of all this other talk.
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03 Mar 2016 21:44

I have to say this is a thrilling intellectual battle of historical knowledge between Echoes and Rhubroma.
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Re: God and Religion

05 Mar 2016 15:37

For one poster, it's indeed a show of "historical" knowledge or rather knowledge of the history revised by Enlightenment propaganda, historical knowledge for its own sake, for bragging in a way. For the other, well for me, it's proving the point that I made when I responded to you:

It's the Enlightenment, which means the Left-wing that implemented libertarianism and hence the capitalist exploitation of the proletariate. Not the Right-wing

He's of course never addressed that issue. Even other posters on this thread who have ideas closer to him made him realise that he was missing the point. Each time I raised my point, he kicked into touch and moved to another topic that he thinks he can handle but even then he's only saying more historical untruths. It's tedious in the end.

I prove that the Left-Winged Enlightenment was instrumental in the advent of capitalism because they advocated and eventually gained the suppression of the workingmen's guilds. I could have added all the village communities and the French "compagnons". The Enlightenment destroyed all the associative, communitarian life that had existed for centuries Under the Old regime, so I'm laughing with the back of my head when I see that some leftists call themselves "socialists".

I'm encouraging those who don't take my words on face value to documentate about the workingmen's guild of the Middle Ages and how they ended. It's fascinating.

But I could give much more evidence that the Enlightenment paved the way for the capitalist system. I've already showed how Turgot implemented the liberalisation of grain price. Until the Enlightenment the King was indeed the Feeding Father of his people, even Louis XIV! The old regime had the "Royal Grain Police" to make sure that no baker are selling their bread above the price fixed by the monarchy in order to make sure that bread is affordable to anyone, such was the scare of a famine. Despite all the fastuousness of the Versailles Court, the Sun King has NEVER suppressed the grain police, so yes he was still the Feeding Father of his people.

Physiocrat Quesnay attempted the liberalization by 1763 but was readily dismissed by King Louis XV when the King realised the damage done. Same for Louis XVI after Turgot's reform in 1774 but that was very harmful. The monarchies had had grain reserved in any towns in case of shortage, Turgot had them emptied in order to reduce the price. Once the reserve are emptied, of course, price went up again and there was no reserve. The people were starving, it's the start of a revolt known as the Flour War

I could add other arguments such as Turgot's pleed for the legalisation of usury (you all know that the Church as well Islam condemned usury as a mortal sin, money is not a good like any other, just like bread is not a good like any other).

I also could refer to the Tragedy of Commons which started in England with the Anglican Revolution, at the expense of Catholics. Saint Thomas More referred to it many times in his Utopia (which he printed in Belgium, by the way). But two centuries later, the Physiocrats (which I remind you is a branch of the Enlightenment) took the idea back and advocated for the right of Enclosure at the expense of the Grazing Lands. For centuries the Grazing right had enabled the poorest peasants to feed their beasts on common AND private lands after the crop season was over. Ethis de Noveant was one such libertarian/physiocrat who considered grazing rights as barbaric rights “which could only come from centuries of ignorance” (1767). So these progressives considered those deeply rooted social traditions as barbaric! The working class was “conservative”.

I can also point to the Enlightenment's support for the Slave Trade (Voltaire made a fortune out of it), I could point to the new Republican calendar which divided the calendar in 10-day weeks instead of 7-day, which means one day off in 10, instead of one day off in 7. I could generally speaking point to their hatred to the Church for guaranteeing 85 days of annual leave and another 70 days of halftime work. That was the Church's major crime in their view.

If by Capitalism you mean the unlimited reign of money, then it definitely comes from Left-winged circles, more precisely from the Enlightenment matrix. They destroyed all the traditional obstacles to market determinism: the Church, the Family, the Patriarchal society, the medieval guilds, the village communities, etc. It's not even disputable when you study history in an honest way.

With regards to literacy, I see that my point that the Jesuits (and other Catholic orders) had enhanced free education for centuries is no longer disputed. However the stereotype that the Enlightenment have a Monopoly on good understanding is so childish that I find it again tedious to even discuss it. The Jesuits had observatories across Europe, their missionaries spread new discoveries all over to China, they translated Confucius' book into Western languages and most of all they welcomed Johannes Kepler in one of their uni, when Kepler was persecuted by the Lutheran clergy. Kepler remained a Protestant and worked along with Jesuits in order to state his Three Laws and in particular the one about the elliptic orbit of planets while the idiot Galileo (that present-day atheists still revere as a hero for defying the Church) still believe in the circular orbits of planets. Needless to say, the Jesuits all believe that the Sun was at the centre but none could prove it. Even Pope Urban VIII said it multiple times that he thought the Sun was at the centre.

That's all part of the whole Enlightenment lie. A guy lie kept on lying. His biggest lie might be the Man in the Iron Mask. How can anyone believe that he was a Louis XIV brother.

Also needless to say, Henri IV sincerely converted to Catholicism and respected the old tradition of the French monarchy. Queen Mum Catherine of Medici was the main driving force behind the religious peace. The Peace of Saint-Germain was her success (beside marrying her daughter to the future Henri IV). Of course rebels did not accept it and that led to St Bartolomew, where the situation went out of hand but she only ordered to eliminate the leaders of the rebellion, not 30,000.

Also, it's quite striking that the poster above there, defends the Jansenists and Protestants against the Jesuits. Though I won't claim that all Protestants are bad.
The main difference between Catholics and Lutherians or Calvinists is the predestination, right? It's the same that distinguish Catholics/Jesuits and Jansenists. So it speaks volume about that poster that he defends those people.

What do Judaites, Anglicans, Calvinists, Puritans, Jansenists and the Enlightenment (so atheists) have in common? They all believe that wealth makes you a good man. If you are rich, that means you are good. ANd you should never help the poor because thereby you encourage them to laze. It's all in their ideologies. The whole dirty reputation of the Jesuit order came from their propagandist activities, in particular that of the Jansenists who were very well represented in the French tribunals (the so-called Parliaments, nothing to do with present-day Parliaments) and had their minds constantly occupied with religious things while they were laymen. It's a violation of the traditional Christian distinction between the Temporal and the Spiritual. The greatest Jansenist achievement is the Civil Constitution of the Clergy on July 12 1790 when Church & State were not separated but the former got subordinated to the latter. In any French region where the Jansenists were strong, the priests massively took the oath to the Constitution. Where they were not, priests were refractory.
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05 Mar 2016 17:55

It is only opinion which decides who is the revisionist.
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05 Mar 2016 17:58

The only tedious thing is that in a thread about religion, we have to submit to the litany of Echoes' lugubrious posts about the demise of the ancien regime. Get over it chap. The clergy and the king lost their stranglehold over society. Christianity didn't invent it, though. It's roots are to be found in the state alimentarius and collegii of ancient Rome.

At any rate, what began as a bourgiose revolution under the effects of capitalist industrialization required a new socio-political dialectic, which Marx provided. The left-right dichotomy of today has its origins in the new Marxian language, not before.

Cheers

PS: It does seem urgent in today's world for the communal impulses of which Echoes is trying to describe as religious based morality, while disregarding the worst excesses of power that came with it, should be rethought. Beginning with their rationalisation. Not being an economist, in my worst flights of mind, I imagine a State which determines the market where providing for the collective is concerned by making the costs conform to the budget. In effect, we need two economies.
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Re: God and Religion

07 Mar 2016 22:37

Echoes wrote:... That is how Enlightenment's Turgot came up with the brilliant idea to send children to factory to work,


Sorry for the interuption, but how will Turgot do in PR :o :D
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15 Mar 2016 09:52

thought.....is life crucial to the existence of the universe..........or something which came about through opportunity Mark L
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Re: God and Religion

15 Mar 2016 11:42

Tank Engine wrote:
Echoes wrote:... That is how Enlightenment's Turgot came up with the brilliant idea to send children to factory to work,


Sorry for the interuption, but how will Turgot do in PR :o :D

In light of all the recent press the pedophile scandals are receiving lately, maybe sending the children to the factories was the best thing for them, as long as the factories weren't managed by catholic priests that is.
"This comment qualifies as a shining example of the "anyone who disagrees with my perspective is a dolt" leftist, intolerant mish-mash of shallow thinking." - Scott SoCal
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Re: God and Religion

15 Mar 2016 12:14

Atheist Frogs (& Germans for that matter) should rather shut the f*ck up about pedophilia because they are the first to approve of it! Only when the Vatican II sect (which they are stupid enough to confuse with the Catholic Church) is involved they start opposing to it but fact is, liberals in the seventies overtly approved of pedophilia.

In the 18th century the Church was the only institution trying to do something against the massive child traffic inside the “Hôpital general”, a kind of orphanage in Paris, held by secularists, of course.

Christophobes really have no culture.
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Re: God and Religion

15 Mar 2016 16:30

Echoes wrote:Atheist Frogs (& Germans for that matter) should rather shut the f*ck up about pedophilia because they are the first to approve of it! Only when the Vatican II sect (which they are stupid enough to confuse with the Catholic Church) is involved they start opposing to it but fact is, liberals in the seventies overtly approved of pedophilia.

In the 18th century the Church was the only institution trying to do something against the massive child traffic inside the “Hôpital general”, a kind of orphanage in Paris, held by secularists, of course.

Christophobes really have no culture.

So all the catholic pedophiles have to do is say that their acts were post Vatican II so they don't count as christian acts. Got to admit, religions are champions at justifying their filth.
"This comment qualifies as a shining example of the "anyone who disagrees with my perspective is a dolt" leftist, intolerant mish-mash of shallow thinking." - Scott SoCal
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Re: God and Religion

15 Mar 2016 18:01

frenchfry wrote:So all the catholic pedophiles have to do is say that their acts were post Vatican II so they don't count as christian acts. Got to admit, religions are champions at justifying their filth.


Honestly, do you people even read what Echoes writes?

If you're not going to try and understand somebodies point of view, you shouldn't bother replying to him.

In fact, if you feel it is a useful contribution to come completely off topic with a generic 'omg catholic church pedophilia' remark, I suggest you refrain from replying to this thread at all until you come with up with something more useful to say.

(Btw, I'm not saying pedophilia scandals in religious organisations shouldn't be discussed in this topic, but when people are having a serious discussion about economics, secularism, enlightenment and religion and the relation between them and somebody butts in with a generic remark about pedophilia in the roman catholic church, it's just a bloody strawman and a really poor one too.)
Last edited by Maaaaaaaarten on 15 Mar 2016 18:56, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: God and Religion

15 Mar 2016 18:04

frenchfry wrote:
Echoes wrote:Atheist Frogs (& Germans for that matter) should rather shut the f*ck up about pedophilia because they are the first to approve of it! Only when the Vatican II sect (which they are stupid enough to confuse with the Catholic Church) is involved they start opposing to it but fact is, liberals in the seventies overtly approved of pedophilia.

In the 18th century the Church was the only institution trying to do something against the massive child traffic inside the “Hôpital general”, a kind of orphanage in Paris, held by secularists, of course.

Christophobes really have no culture.

So all the catholic pedophiles have to do is say that their acts were post Vatican II so they don't count as christian acts. Got to admit, religions are champions at justifying their filth.

"you people" better watch out and read. :D
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Re: God and Religion

16 Mar 2016 07:09

Maaaaaaaarten wrote:
frenchfry wrote:So all the catholic pedophiles have to do is say that their acts were post Vatican II so they don't count as christian acts. Got to admit, religions are champions at justifying their filth.


Honestly, do you people even read what Echoes writes?

If you're not going to try and understand somebodies point of view, you shouldn't bother replying to him.

In fact, if you feel it is a useful contribution to come completely off topic with a generic 'omg catholic church pedophilia' remark, I suggest you refrain from replying to this thread at all until you come with up with something more useful to say.

(Btw, I'm not saying pedophilia scandals in religious organisations shouldn't be discussed in this topic, but when people are having a serious discussion about economics, secularism, enlightenment and religion and the relation between them and somebody butts in with a generic remark about pedophilia in the roman catholic church, it's just a bloody strawman and a really poor one too.)

Thanks Maaaaaaaarten for telling me what I should and shouldn't contribute on this forum. Being an Atheist Frog and all I am obviously in need of guidance.
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16 Mar 2016 07:41

Echoes "historical" knowledge is the worst type of sectarian apology, willfully circumscribed and rhetorically triumphalist, totally blind to the obscurantist role the religous establishment played over these centuries. Frenchfry's ironic observation in light of this was not only pertinent, but necessary. I thus stand with the "Atheist frog."
User avatar rhubroma
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16 Mar 2016 08:26

A few months old but worth a read for a laugh (or maybe cry)

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/education/educationnews/12029884/Human-rights-campaigner-heckled-at-blasphemy-lecture.html

Islamic society at London university protested against a speech organized by another society, on the grounds that the speaker was allegedly a bigot. What she had said was that the niqab is a symbol of far right Islam. they even wrote a letter saying thAt people with outrageous views should not be allowed to talk at a university. They of course to gain sympathy threw in the word Islamophobia which is designed to paint as racist absolutely anyone who radicals don't like for whatever reasons.

So they invaded the speech and performed various acts of sabotage including shouting and turning off her projector.

Then the article looks over some of the people that same Islamic society had recently invited to give speeches. This includes, a man who had said that all white men must die, a man who had praised one of the isil terrorists, a man who said anyone who fights a Muslim should die.

Its amazing people like this actually exist.
User avatar The Hitch
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Re: God and Religion

16 Mar 2016 15:45

frenchfry wrote:
Echoes wrote:Atheist Frogs (& Germans for that matter) should rather shut the f*ck up about pedophilia because they are the first to approve of it! Only when the Vatican II sect (which they are stupid enough to confuse with the Catholic Church) is involved they start opposing to it but fact is, liberals in the seventies overtly approved of pedophilia.

In the 18th century the Church was the only institution trying to do something against the massive child traffic inside the “Hôpital general”, a kind of orphanage in Paris, held by secularists, of course.

Christophobes really have no culture.

So all the catholic pedophiles have to do is say that their acts were post Vatican II so they don't count as christian acts. Got to admit, religions are champions at justifying their filth.


So the church was trying to curtail it where visible: in the Hôpital general, which it could antagonize, and through village leaders, etc. but not address it where it mattered (family too)? Sounds good. In that sense we're all post Vatican II and the 70s were an outgrowth of that coming apart under modernization--not a product of some heretical/schismatic ruling. Look at the world since (I'm addressing Echoes) codes of authority are overgrown and superseded, it's not the perversion of an arkhe gone amiss.
aphronesis
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Re:

17 Mar 2016 04:12

rhubroma wrote:Echoes "historical" knowledge is the worst type of sectarian apology, willfully circumscribed and rhetorically triumphalist, totally blind to the obscurantist role the religous establishment played over these centuries. Frenchfry's ironic observation in light of this was not only pertinent, but necessary. I thus stand with the "Atheist frog."


Amen, brother
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