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Re: Re:

02 Apr 2016 16:13

Glenn_Wilson wrote:
aphronesis wrote:Amen brother. More notes from the underground. Crack those windows for a bit of air and light. The crusades are over and you're still ranting about an inbred Euro cult.

I wonder if the Ancient Aliens were vegetarians.


Well they didn't abduct all the cows.
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Re: Veganism

02 Apr 2016 16:30

Echoes wrote:Why be so formalist? We are talking about food, so it has a place here. I don't feel like going back to that thread again ...

Timothy 4:1-5 does not explicitly say that animals are created as food. It just says we cannot forbid anyone to eat but what is food? Paul explains in Corinthians 8:13 that he had to quit eating meat in order not to scandalise his "brothers", thereby assuming that early Christians were vegetarians (confirmed by several sources) and probably so was Jesus (not just pesco-vegetarian as He's sometimes referred to).

Why the anti religious vegans are hypocrites is just because if care for animals is really their ideal, their attacks against religion is at the same time an attack against the main obstacle to mass consumption of in particular meat. It's just a mixture of hypocrisy and stupidity, there. The 1970's which were anti-religious years through and through were also years of a consumerist boom because the war and privation years of the forties and seventies increased Euro appetite tenfold. So gluttony was the standard, as illustrated by the horrible though interesting film La grande abbuffata by Marco Ferreri. Churches emptied but supermarket filled in. Nobody wanted to hear anymore about the Lent, about fasting, about meat prohibition on Fridays, etc. So as a Catholic I have no moral lesson to receive from atheistic vegans, on the contrary. Until the sixties/seventies common people rarely ate meat. It was not just because they could not afford it, it also was a habit. When they ate meat, it was often out of necessity, because there are regions like here in Belgium where nothing grows in winter. Nowadays, everybody wants his own hamburger, his hot dog, his underdone steak which here on the Continent is more the result of an Americanization of the ways of life than of tradition.

Religious people defend a natural order based on common good. Atheist opposed to it an order based on individualism or general interest (which is the sum of every particular interest) in which society is made for everyone to satisfy their endless needs and desires in absolute freedom. No wonder that in such an order, meat consumption and animal slaughtering gets huge. In order for veganism to prevail massively it needs a religious revival, a counter-revolution. A restoration of traditions, of authority, if only at school because it has to start with education, kids have to understand that they cannot always get what they want. And a restoration of discipline and fighting against oneself.


In 1 Corinthians 8:13 Paul doesn't say he stopped eating meat. He says "IF" eating food causes my brother to stumble I will never eat meat again. You can look at the earlier verses to see the context.

But food will not commend us to God; we are neither the worse if we do not eat, nor the better if we do eat. 9 But take care that this liberty of yours does not somehow become a stumbling block to the weak. (1 Corinthians 8:8-9)

The eating of meat in and of its self isn't sin. What is sin is when we stumble brothers or sisters. For example, If I'm eating at a restaurant with a Seven Day Adventist, I'm not going to order a slab of pork. That would be wrong.

Also Paul is talking about eating meat in 1 Timothy. Teachers have never preached to abstain from vegetables. When talking about abstaining from foods it's always in the context of meat.
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02 Apr 2016 20:52

The huntsmen in the lodge were invariably getting drunk and someone was always shot. By contrast, the gardeners in the orangery never ceased to dance and make love in the grove.
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Re:

02 Apr 2016 23:31

rhubroma wrote:The huntsmen in the lodge were invariably getting drunk and someone was always shot. By contrast, the gardeners in the orangery never ceased to dance and make love in the grove.


Getting drunk on the wine produced by the gardeners? :p
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17 Sep 2018 16:52

Plants can 'feel' you picking them!

Video shows that leaves fire off pain signals to warn their neighbours of danger when attacked

* Plant leaves send pain signals that are similar to those found in human beings
* The response is so sensitive it can be set off by the footprints of a caterpillar
* It triggers a release of defence hormones to help protect the plant from danger



Oops.
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Re:

18 Sep 2018 00:11

StyrbjornSterki wrote:Plants can 'feel' you picking them!

Video shows that leaves fire off pain signals to warn their neighbours of danger when attacked

* Plant leaves send pain signals that are similar to those found in human beings
* The response is so sensitive it can be set off by the footprints of a caterpillar
* It triggers a release of defence hormones to help protect the plant from danger



Oops.


Hmmm, based on reading the actual study, that is an absolutely terrible article, designed to elicit an incorrect response. This article doesn't link to it, but the full text is available via a search on "Involvement of putative glutamate receptors in plant defence signaling and NO production". Most sites block access but there is a .pdf in the google scholarly search results if you want to read it. There is no mention of "pain", a term which appears to have been inserted by the Daily Mail. What the study describes and demonstrates is the "signaling" mechanism of plants and the sensitivity of that signaling.

Plants still don't have nervous systems. :)
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Re: Veganism

18 Sep 2018 06:15

"Are you going to believe me or what you see with your own eyes?"

Don't mention Khashoggi! It’s a collusion witch hoax!
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Re: Re:

05 Oct 2018 11:18

Jspear wrote:
ray j willings wrote:I'm becoming more and more convinced that vegan is the way to go. Its just a bacon sandwich with ketchup, I cant stop myself .


Yes, imo you have to be a hard core vegan/vegetarian to fight off the temptation of bacon. I have a friend who raises pigs...freshly cured bacon is simply heavenly. :p :D

Sorry...back to the normal conversation here.


Interesting to see this thread finally get a BUMP. I wondered where it had gone to, and now it's back!

I cannot remember my exact comments without re-reading, but a few years ago I was interested in this subject and made the occasional comments here. I've become even more interested in the time that has passed, and am pretty much living Vegan now, without being a Vegan (I feel socially awkward in certain situations and am not someone who is confrontational, plus I think it's hypocritical to take too big a stance when I was only recently a meat eater myself, etc). I haven't eaten meat since the end of last year, which involved telling my parents that I was becoming vegetarian since I would have a get together meal with them once a week that involved meat. In fact, I tell a lie....I started this year still eating fish; that was my compromise with them, but now that's done with too. It can become rather socially difficult for all parties once someone changes their consumption habits so much, even if you are not confrontational. My Mum has been noticing me not eating animal products so much when around them too. It's a real catch 22. Doing what feels right for you vs. still getting along with others. Even my housemate seems to have issues with it, in the sense that he'll 'jokingly' bring up what I'm eating/drinking - or not - often. I don't pass judgement on his eating meat and drinking milk, but you see, I am passing judgement, in a way, by not consuming what he is. One of his ways of being nice to me was to offer me chocolates and stuff too; there is probably natural offence taken to my kind and quiet rejection.

Learning more and more about this subject, I have to say that Vegans are right. They may not go about expressing their views in the right way all the time, but generally speaking they are right. It is reasonably healthy to not consume animal products, and in much of the western world it is, much of the time, fairly unnecessary to consume them. However, contrary to what many Vegans preach, it is not easy to go Vegan.

At least in Australia, if you walk down a mainstream supermarket chocolate aisle, then 99% of that chocolate will not be Vegan. What's more, most Vegan foods do not have VEGAN plastered across them in shiny letters. And the number of grey areas when it comes to whether something is vegan or not, is huge. Trust me, I know, because I always look out for this stuff now. And even when you might think something is Vegan, then look a little closer, and a lot of the time it has a little egg, or a little milk, or a little cheese.

Slowly more Vegan options are infiltrating into mainstream stores though. There is now a Vegan cheeseburger at Hungry Jacks/Burger King, though at this stage still only in select stores (and not in Victoria where I live I think; whereas South Australia seems to be making the switch at a faster rate). I've been buying a Veggie Patty at Subway for years (which might not even be Vegan, a lot of stuff like that is definitely vegetarian, but questionable when it comes to the big V), and now they have a falafel wrap, which tastes great, and is Vegan. Praise the Lord! But I would have it with sweet chilli sauce, and so decided to look it up, and if you google that you will see that some sweet chilli sauces have animal products.

People who say that it is easy to go Vegan are not helping matters.

Two other subject matters are largely ignored when it comes to Veganism, and they can be related to each other. One is that food is very important to some people. Well, food is very important to everyone :lol: But what I mean is that it is a HUGE passion for some people, their favourite thing in life, a major aspect of what makes them happy. This is where many Vegans miss the point again. It is much easier to go Vegan (or to at least reduce your consumption of animal products) if eating is not one of your biggest passions. Personally I've always felt that much more pleasure and meaningfulness could be derived from walking up a mountain, or gazing at a beautiful lake, or listening to some wonderful music, or doing some personal writing. But I am not everyone. For most people what they consume is their way of life, and in a way even their identity. Now that I am discovering all of the Vegan sausages, quinoa burgers, sausage rolls and nuggets that are out there (and that they taste nice and are filling enough) it might seem 'easy', but even I can see that it is not easy for someone who enjoys bacon on a weekly basis.

On that subject, I used to like bacon, but not as much as many other people. And after a while of not eating it, and changing my mindset, I do not miss it at all. I don't see bacon in a burger and feel a desire to eat it. You would probably think that I am lying! But I am not.

Also related to the earlier subject is the fact that many people simply live very busy, very stressful, very unhappy lives. They're tied up to a spouse that they don't love, work a job that gives them grief, and just generally don't really have a lot to look forward to. Consuming that "wonderful, magical animal" is their source of happiness. If people need to make changes at all, then those changes need to be gradual.

By the way, I care a little about animals, but not as much as most Vegans do. I don't lose sleep over all of the animals that are dying 'needlessly' every second. There is a lot of bad that happens in the world. If we blamed ourselves for that then it would be difficult to feel very happy, very often. Fortunately for me, I am rather selfish.

Oh, and pets are another big subject here. I have two dogs, and am becoming more and more aware of the major contradiction between loving them, and killing hundreds/thousands of animals to feed them. I am going to attempt to transition them away from meat, or at least to less meat, but even if this is possible, then again this is something that is not made easy. Try walking down an aisle full of dog and cat food and finding anything vegetarian. You will probably have more luck with trying to find a clean professional cyclist :D
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20 Dec 2018 06:58

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2018-12-19/the-vegetarians-at-the-gate?srnd=premium-europe
The vegan revolution is here, and there are fortunes to be made.


and
Beauty blogs now refer uncritically to something called a “vegan glow.”
:lol:
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Re: Re:

26 Dec 2018 22:28

gregrowlerson wrote:
Jspear wrote:
ray j willings wrote:I'm becoming more and more convinced that vegan is the way to go. Its just a bacon sandwich with ketchup, I cant stop myself .


Yes, imo you have to be a hard core vegan/vegetarian to fight off the temptation of bacon. I have a friend who raises pigs...freshly cured bacon is simply heavenly. :p :D

Sorry...back to the normal conversation here.


Interesting to see this thread finally get a BUMP. I wondered where it had gone to, and now it's back!

I cannot remember my exact comments without re-reading, but a few years ago I was interested in this subject and made the occasional comments here. I've become even more interested in the time that has passed, and am pretty much living Vegan now, without being a Vegan (I feel socially awkward in certain situations and am not someone who is confrontational, plus I think it's hypocritical to take too big a stance when I was only recently a meat eater myself, etc). I haven't eaten meat since the end of last year, which involved telling my parents that I was becoming vegetarian since I would have a get together meal with them once a week that involved meat. In fact, I tell a lie....I started this year still eating fish; that was my compromise with them, but now that's done with too. It can become rather socially difficult for all parties once someone changes their consumption habits so much, even if you are not confrontational. My Mum has been noticing me not eating animal products so much when around them too. It's a real catch 22. Doing what feels right for you vs. still getting along with others. Even my housemate seems to have issues with it, in the sense that he'll 'jokingly' bring up what I'm eating/drinking - or not - often. I don't pass judgement on his eating meat and drinking milk, but you see, I am passing judgement, in a way, by not consuming what he is. One of his ways of being nice to me was to offer me chocolates and stuff too; there is probably natural offence taken to my kind and quiet rejection.

Learning more and more about this subject, I have to say that Vegans are right. They may not go about expressing their views in the right way all the time, but generally speaking they are right. It is reasonably healthy to not consume animal products, and in much of the western world it is, much of the time, fairly unnecessary to consume them. However, contrary to what many Vegans preach, it is not easy to go Vegan.

At least in Australia, if you walk down a mainstream supermarket chocolate aisle, then 99% of that chocolate will not be Vegan. What's more, most Vegan foods do not have VEGAN plastered across them in shiny letters. And the number of grey areas when it comes to whether something is vegan or not, is huge. Trust me, I know, because I always look out for this stuff now. And even when you might think something is Vegan, then look a little closer, and a lot of the time it has a little egg, or a little milk, or a little cheese.

Slowly more Vegan options are infiltrating into mainstream stores though. There is now a Vegan cheeseburger at Hungry Jacks/Burger King, though at this stage still only in select stores (and not in Victoria where I live I think; whereas South Australia seems to be making the switch at a faster rate). I've been buying a Veggie Patty at Subway for years (which might not even be Vegan, a lot of stuff like that is definitely vegetarian, but questionable when it comes to the big V), and now they have a falafel wrap, which tastes great, and is Vegan. Praise the Lord! But I would have it with sweet chilli sauce, and so decided to look it up, and if you google that you will see that some sweet chilli sauces have animal products.

People who say that it is easy to go Vegan are not helping matters.

Two other subject matters are largely ignored when it comes to Veganism, and they can be related to each other. One is that food is very important to some people. Well, food is very important to everyone :lol: But what I mean is that it is a HUGE passion for some people, their favourite thing in life, a major aspect of what makes them happy. This is where many Vegans miss the point again. It is much easier to go Vegan (or to at least reduce your consumption of animal products) if eating is not one of your biggest passions. Personally I've always felt that much more pleasure and meaningfulness could be derived from walking up a mountain, or gazing at a beautiful lake, or listening to some wonderful music, or doing some personal writing. But I am not everyone. For most people what they consume is their way of life, and in a way even their identity. Now that I am discovering all of the Vegan sausages, quinoa burgers, sausage rolls and nuggets that are out there (and that they taste nice and are filling enough) it might seem 'easy', but even I can see that it is not easy for someone who enjoys bacon on a weekly basis.

On that subject, I used to like bacon, but not as much as many other people. And after a while of not eating it, and changing my mindset, I do not miss it at all. I don't see bacon in a burger and feel a desire to eat it. You would probably think that I am lying! But I am not.

Also related to the earlier subject is the fact that many people simply live very busy, very stressful, very unhappy lives. They're tied up to a spouse that they don't love, work a job that gives them grief, and just generally don't really have a lot to look forward to. Consuming that "wonderful, magical animal" is their source of happiness. If people need to make changes at all, then those changes need to be gradual.

By the way, I care a little about animals, but not as much as most Vegans do. I don't lose sleep over all of the animals that are dying 'needlessly' every second. There is a lot of bad that happens in the world. If we blamed ourselves for that then it would be difficult to feel very happy, very often. Fortunately for me, I am rather selfish.

Oh, and pets are another big subject here. I have two dogs, and am becoming more and more aware of the major contradiction between loving them, and killing hundreds/thousands of animals to feed them. I am going to attempt to transition them away from meat, or at least to less meat, but even if this is possible, then again this is something that is not made easy. Try walking down an aisle full of dog and cat food and finding anything vegetarian. You will probably have more luck with trying to find a clean professional cyclist :D

Rock on, man!
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Re: Re:

31 Dec 2018 08:00

veganrob wrote:
gregrowlerson wrote:
Jspear wrote:
ray j willings wrote:I'm becoming more and more convinced that vegan is the way to go. Its just a bacon sandwich with ketchup, I cant stop myself .


Yes, imo you have to be a hard core vegan/vegetarian to fight off the temptation of bacon. I have a friend who raises pigs...freshly cured bacon is simply heavenly. :p :D

Sorry...back to the normal conversation here.


Interesting to see this thread finally get a BUMP. I wondered where it had gone to, and now it's back!

I cannot remember my exact comments without re-reading, but a few years ago I was interested in this subject and made the occasional comments here. I've become even more interested in the time that has passed, and am pretty much living Vegan now, without being a Vegan (I feel socially awkward in certain situations and am not someone who is confrontational, plus I think it's hypocritical to take too big a stance when I was only recently a meat eater myself, etc). I haven't eaten meat since the end of last year, which involved telling my parents that I was becoming vegetarian since I would have a get together meal with them once a week that involved meat. In fact, I tell a lie....I started this year still eating fish; that was my compromise with them, but now that's done with too. It can become rather socially difficult for all parties once someone changes their consumption habits so much, even if you are not confrontational. My Mum has been noticing me not eating animal products so much when around them too. It's a real catch 22. Doing what feels right for you vs. still getting along with others. Even my housemate seems to have issues with it, in the sense that he'll 'jokingly' bring up what I'm eating/drinking - or not - often. I don't pass judgement on his eating meat and drinking milk, but you see, I am passing judgement, in a way, by not consuming what he is. One of his ways of being nice to me was to offer me chocolates and stuff too; there is probably natural offence taken to my kind and quiet rejection.

Learning more and more about this subject, I have to say that Vegans are right. They may not go about expressing their views in the right way all the time, but generally speaking they are right. It is reasonably healthy to not consume animal products, and in much of the western world it is, much of the time, fairly unnecessary to consume them. However, contrary to what many Vegans preach, it is not easy to go Vegan.

At least in Australia, if you walk down a mainstream supermarket chocolate aisle, then 99% of that chocolate will not be Vegan. What's more, most Vegan foods do not have VEGAN plastered across them in shiny letters. And the number of grey areas when it comes to whether something is vegan or not, is huge. Trust me, I know, because I always look out for this stuff now. And even when you might think something is Vegan, then look a little closer, and a lot of the time it has a little egg, or a little milk, or a little cheese.

Slowly more Vegan options are infiltrating into mainstream stores though. There is now a Vegan cheeseburger at Hungry Jacks/Burger King, though at this stage still only in select stores (and not in Victoria where I live I think; whereas South Australia seems to be making the switch at a faster rate). I've been buying a Veggie Patty at Subway for years (which might not even be Vegan, a lot of stuff like that is definitely vegetarian, but questionable when it comes to the big V), and now they have a falafel wrap, which tastes great, and is Vegan. Praise the Lord! But I would have it with sweet chilli sauce, and so decided to look it up, and if you google that you will see that some sweet chilli sauces have animal products.

People who say that it is easy to go Vegan are not helping matters.

Two other subject matters are largely ignored when it comes to Veganism, and they can be related to each other. One is that food is very important to some people. Well, food is very important to everyone :lol: But what I mean is that it is a HUGE passion for some people, their favourite thing in life, a major aspect of what makes them happy. This is where many Vegans miss the point again. It is much easier to go Vegan (or to at least reduce your consumption of animal products) if eating is not one of your biggest passions. Personally I've always felt that much more pleasure and meaningfulness could be derived from walking up a mountain, or gazing at a beautiful lake, or listening to some wonderful music, or doing some personal writing. But I am not everyone. For most people what they consume is their way of life, and in a way even their identity. Now that I am discovering all of the Vegan sausages, quinoa burgers, sausage rolls and nuggets that are out there (and that they taste nice and are filling enough) it might seem 'easy', but even I can see that it is not easy for someone who enjoys bacon on a weekly basis.

On that subject, I used to like bacon, but not as much as many other people. And after a while of not eating it, and changing my mindset, I do not miss it at all. I don't see bacon in a burger and feel a desire to eat it. You would probably think that I am lying! But I am not.

Also related to the earlier subject is the fact that many people simply live very busy, very stressful, very unhappy lives. They're tied up to a spouse that they don't love, work a job that gives them grief, and just generally don't really have a lot to look forward to. Consuming that "wonderful, magical animal" is their source of happiness. If people need to make changes at all, then those changes need to be gradual.

By the way, I care a little about animals, but not as much as most Vegans do. I don't lose sleep over all of the animals that are dying 'needlessly' every second. There is a lot of bad that happens in the world. If we blamed ourselves for that then it would be difficult to feel very happy, very often. Fortunately for me, I am rather selfish.

Oh, and pets are another big subject here. I have two dogs, and am becoming more and more aware of the major contradiction between loving them, and killing hundreds/thousands of animals to feed them. I am going to attempt to transition them away from meat, or at least to less meat, but even if this is possible, then again this is something that is not made easy. Try walking down an aisle full of dog and cat food and finding anything vegetarian. You will probably have more luck with trying to find a clean professional cyclist :D

Rock on, man!


Thanks mate! I have to admit that I do it more for me than for the animals though (otherwise I would have stopped eating animals way back when I developed my moral compass). It's convenient enough for me when compared to my lack of passion for eating/drinking in the first place. More people are going Vegan (those sections at the supermarket are widening :D ) and it is going to spread all the more.

Not saying that 'we' will have taken over the world in a decade's time, but I think that in fifty years time there will be more Vegans than meat eaters, at least in first world countries.
User avatar gregrowlerson
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03 Jan 2019 10:51

Gregrowlerson, are you confusing being a vegan with eating a plant based diet? Have you "gone vegan" in all facets of your life or is it just food?
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27 Jan 2019 16:00

In the end I think it should come down to whatever are the needs of each individual person. For some people some things are easier to digest, for others some things are harder. There are also various allergies around that people have, so you never know, what you may have to avoid. But what remains is that you need to get vitamins from somewhere.

However, the interesting argument I found was that large animal farms contribute to climate change due to CO2 emissions those animals produce. So maybe we all collectively need to give up on meat a bit anyway, because the planet can't handle it, lol.
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Re:

28 Jan 2019 13:55

King Boonen wrote:Gregrowlerson, are you confusing being a vegan with eating a plant based diet? Have you "gone vegan" in all facets of your life or is it just food?


Good questions. I am not really technically Vegan yet in any sense, but I suppose it is easier to describe myself as such on this forum, since it is my general intention to ‘go’ it. Even the other day I purchased ‘meat free’ pieces for a stir fry that contained a small amount of egg white. This was a rare going against my recent year plus trend of supermarket purchases, and can only be excused – if it can be excused at all – by convenience, and a concern for my weight (I have always been very thin, and seem to be losing more weight….it’s much better health wise for overweight people to go Vegan than it is for me, certainly).

Later this week I am travelling overseas to Norway and to some areas of Europe, for a month, rather a selfish pursuit. For some of that time I will be staying with a friend in Trondheim, and I have made him aware that I am basically Vegan, but with him being not, I have said that if I have to, I will consume eggs if necessary, possibly even a small amount of cow’s milk. No true Vegan would do this, and if this sort of necessary situation arose, then they wouldn’t choose to put themselves into that situation in the first place (and they would probably give their travel money to PETA or something). But I am not travelling to a third world country. Finding plant based milk alternatives should be easy enough, and I will take some wheat based cereal and maybe some vegan muesli bars and other such items in my suitcase to assist me further.

My two dogs will be looked after by my parents, and they will be fed an almost solely meat based diet. They know about me, but they don’t know what my intentions are for my dogs, and probably wouldn’t understand it (making a dog go vegan is an absurd concept to the vast majority of society, who consider them to be carnivores, though they are omnivores). With me they are now eating at least a 50% Vegan diet; the transition is going okay, and most definitely can be done (if it can be done with cats then it can be done with dogs) from what I have read on the subject (and my dogs have always liked many non-meat foods as much as, if not more, than what is considered normal; such as bread, and be careful with your fingers when handing them a vegan nugget!). Having others understand it, is another matter. Again, if I was a true vegan, then either I wouldn’t travel and would continue to progress with their vegan transition, or I would insist that my parents tried to feed them what I am trying to feed them. Note that doing so is less ‘convenient’. I am literally spoon feeding them the vegan wet food. Sometimes they are not interested. It’s not just a case of throwing it into a bowl and walking away, job done. It might not be touched in twenty-four hours; food wasted. But given a little more time and encouragement, they get into this food quite heavily sometimes.

My parents are not vegan though, and probably should not be inconvenienced still further.

I also am not an animal activist, which as a vegan, you are meant to be. I don’t attend rallies/protests, at least not yet. I am very submissive (if that is the correct term) on it all, partly because I don’t like confrontation, and partly because I don’t think that 95% of vegans go vegan for the animals, or for the environment; they do it for themselves, when it is convenient enough for them to do so. It is much less convenient, much harder, for many others to go vegan. And that doesn’t necessarily make them worse human beings.

There are all sorts of other aspects to Veganism too. Have all of my clothes got no relation whatsoever to animals? Probably not. What seating does my car have, or my couch? All I can say is that these things I am thinking more about now. And really that’s all it can start with.
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Re: Veganism

28 Jan 2019 21:01

So to Boonen's question above, I'm wondering what your reasons or goals are around changing your diet. For me, "Vegan" is kind of a hot-button word, when you say you're a vegan people make all kinds of assumptions about your motivations, ethics, and start grilling you about it. Basically a mild form of interrogation meant at exposing some flaw in your philosophy. Apparently people find it threatening as you discuss, for one to reject the societal norm of eating meat. Now "plant-based diet" is a bit of a mouthful, but it doesn't have the same baggage socially. Don't get me wrong, when people figure out you don't eat meat they still have questions and still feel threatened, but the reaction is milder.

Personally my goal when switching was health. From everything I can glean from the science, there really is no healthier way to eat. Given that, I don't really worry about the little details you mention above, like chocolate, or the ingredients of every food. What I do is eat whole plant foods 95% of the time 'and not worry about the rest. Now that won't work for an ethical vegan, but it's not clear to me that's your reason for choosing this path. But for me it works fine. I get a huge health benefit and massively reduce my carbon footprint. I don't try and eat foods that mimic animal products, they never satisfy. I just eat plants.

Try reading "Eat to Live" by Joel Fuhrnan. Fantastic stuff.
User avatar red_flanders
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28 Jan 2019 22:19

I’ve been raw, organic vegan at times and gone through periods of pretty strong and judgmental rigidity. Many of the people closest to me have as well. I think the important thing, as flanders, is saying is to do what’s manageable for one and what your life can accomodate without worrying about “true” or “real” vegans or too see it as a spectrum.
aphronesis
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Re: Veganism

29 Jan 2019 04:28

red_flanders wrote:So to Boonen's question above, I'm wondering what your reasons or goals are around changing your diet. For me, "Vegan" is kind of a hot-button word, when you say you're a vegan people make all kinds of assumptions about your motivations, ethics, and start grilling you about it. Basically a mild form of interrogation meant at exposing some flaw in your philosophy. Apparently people find it threatening as you discuss, for one to reject the societal norm of eating meat. Now "plant-based diet" is a bit of a mouthful, but it doesn't have the same baggage socially. Don't get me wrong, when people figure out you don't eat meat they still have questions and still feel threatened, but the reaction is milder.

Personally my goal when switching was health. From everything I can glean from the science, there really is no healthier way to eat. Given that, I don't really worry about the little details you mention above, like chocolate, or the ingredients of every food. What I do is eat whole plant foods 95% of the time 'and not worry about the rest. Now that won't work for an ethical vegan, but it's not clear to me that's your reason for choosing this path. But for me it works fine. I get a huge health benefit and massively reduce my carbon footprint. I don't try and eat foods that mimic animal products, they never satisfy. I just eat plants.

Try reading "Eat to Live" by Joel Fuhrnan. Fantastic stuff.


Great post.

I particularly like where you talk about doing it for your own health. And to focus more specifically on the “I” factor here. Because the vast majority of people who go vegan do so because it is more convenient/beneficial, or at least potentially so, for them to do so. They are not doing it “for the animals”, which is a claim that one will often see made from Vegans, and which – as I will attempt to explain – is mostly false.

People go vegan for human reasons, mostly. It might be for social/human relations reasons, for personal health reasons, and it may also be for better non-selfish reasons such as environmental (vegans still kill animals via agricultural means, however, since the livestock that we eat has to consume far more plants than a human on a plant based diet, then a meat eater is still killing more plants – making the “plants have feelings” argument rather void – and more animals that die during harvesting), or for the better treatment of females (once one becomes aware of what a cow really has to go through to give us our dairy). These less selfish reasons don’t mean that we’ve gone vegan in a not for ourselves way though. That all comes back to when you stopped eating meat. You can’t be a meat eater in your mid-twenties and claim to be unaware that what you are eating was not once a living being who feels, both pleasure and pain. If you really, genuinely cared about cows, pigs and chickens, then you wouldn’t have still been consuming them well into adulthood. Therefore, the reason for stopping – or at least reducing – this consumption must have been for selfish reasons.

Much discussion is often unsaid on public forums – and probably largely because people don’t have time to read long posts and explanations – and we end up with just us against them rants, with still many good points being made, but ignoring a lot of what is underlying. It becomes an “I am a vegan” and an “I am a meat eater”, as if these two humans are vastly different creatures, when in fact in many cases it is simply a matter of convenience. It was a little less inconvenient for one to go vegan than the other. But the other might get there one day.

This is why many meat eaters are put off by some holier than thou type of attitudes that some – certainly not all – vegans can put on display, and they are probably not even aware that some of the reasons for being put off are actually justifiable. I don’t watch vegan videos all the time, but have watched them occasionally. One of the more prominent vegans is “Earthling Ed”. Now this guy certainly knows his stuff. And he’ll do on the street discussions with random humans, raising awareness. It’s not only to raise awareness though, but to raise his own ego. I don’t know too much about his personal history, but on this very pro vegan video and comments discussion, one vegan questioned the way that he was talking down to some people, and whether he had the right, or whether it was right, to present the topics and his opinions in this way. He pointed out that Earthling Ed had only been vegan for a few years, so that not too long ago, he was just like them. I think he jumped straight from meat eating to Veganism also, at the age of twenty-one. So again the question of when do we properly develop our moral compass comes into question. Surely he knew that when he was sixteen, that eating animals was wrong?

What Earthling Ed has done, and is doing, is great. I am just questioning the motives behind it. It is rarely just because you are an animal lover.

How much ego, how much “I” is there in this bio”?

https://www.earthlinged.com/

Well, it already begins with, What I Do.

Once people allow themselves to look into Veganism, then most will go Vegan, or at least greatly reduce their consumption of animals/animal products. It is a win/win in so many ways (which is also why vegans can become frustrated about meat eaters not even considering it). Let’s look at why people don’t go vegan.

Fear. For their own fear, mostly. A husband or a wife hears or reads an argument from a vegan, and deep down, very deep down, it makes some sense, but they aren’t even aware of this awareness. Because the possibility of listening to that has been easily overwhelmed by the potential personal problems that looking into such an issue could create. Because for many people, changing their own diet won’t just affect them. It will affect those around them. And this is the case more so for people who are in relationships, who have kids. It is easier for me to stare down this path in the first place, for I am single.

So, to the million-dollar question, what are the reasons or goals for changing my diet?

First point, and probably the most important point. My ex-girlfriend is Vegan. And this isn’t an ex that I despise. No, I still love her. And not in a, “Oh, I cannot go on without you, this is killing me” way, but I love her. I love her heaps. And when you love someone you also admire them. So you will question why they are the way they are. You will question why they have taken on a particular lifestyle.

Particularly when it was for moral reasons.

She wasn’t a ‘stereotypical’ vegan either. She mentioned her lifestyle to me once, and her reason, and that was it. She never mentioned it to me again. She knew that I was a meat eater, and maybe she cared about that, but she didn’t let on that she did. She certainly never made me feel guilty.

Anyway, it was not until about three years after we broke up (most definitely her decision) that I decided to look more into this subject, and I started to cut back on meat. This mostly started with eating more vegetarian meals when I ate out, and pretty soon I wasn’t buying ‘normal’ sausage rolls as often at the supermarket. It was a rather gradual change, which actually makes it definitely less morally based (though perhaps less based on ego….though I am recognising that, so still feeding it….can’t win lol) then saying, “I am disgusted by this!”, and changing your diet immediately. This happened more with a friend of mine on social media, who I could claim as my only vegan friend, who went from extensive meat eater one day, to a vegan the next (about two to three years ago). This to me had a lot more to do with ego, and with social circles, but still, what he was doing was undeniably good. And well, I thought about denying it. Because he kept posting, kept sharing incessantly, pro vegan things, very confronting things. I considered “unfollowing” him often, but I never quite did that, and so his posts would fill up twenty percent of my newsfeed. Going vegan quickly became more and more obvious. Until it was impossible to deny.

But I would never have let myself see all of that if it was going to be too inconvenient for me.

Even when I ate meat, when I on an almost daily basis ate meat; I wouldn’t look forward all day to dinner, with the ironic, “I would die for that!” view and passion. A meal has never been my passion. It has been something that more or less just happens, that has to happen, and so that I can continue to get by, to get on with my life. It has never really been an event, like it is for many.

I can’t say that I have ever cared too much about my own health, and as I have mentioned, I am very thin anyway; I don’t want to lose weight. But eating less animals/animal products is undeniably healthier than a largely meat based diet. And as frugivores we should be, at most, consuming only about 2% of meat in our diet.

Meat consumption actually makes more sense than dairy consumption, which is completely nonsensical. It’s completely crazy, once you see.

Socially I don’t really have any motivations for going vegan, apart from the acknowledging approval of my ex (and she could read this post, but she never really liked cycling; in fact before knowing me she had not even heard of the Giro….I know, that should be grounds for immediate relationship termination :D). My parents and brother are meat eaters, as is my housemate, who I have felt an uneasy fork between us with this whole vegan thing, and I think it is all from his side, but then again, that’s what I would think. Anyway, if I am disliked, then I would prefer that it would be for more justifiable reasons.

All of my long-term friends eat meat, as did my recent work colleagues. I haven’t made any new vegan friends. So if I have done this for social reasons then quite simply, this is an epic fail.

“Basically a mild form of interrogation meant at exposing some flaw in your philosophy.”

Very true, but this is very hard to do, in fact probably impossible, against anyone who knows the facts and who knows how to argue properly. Which I don’t really. So I just stay silent mostly.

Here is a video from Earthling Ed. I have watched the first eleven minutes, which seems to cover most of it, and covers it very well. There is no argument against it. And it appears that he didn’t go vegan for some girl :)

https://www.kinderworld.org/videos/talks/earthling-ed-speech/

Your point about not caring about chocolate is what many vegans would have a problem with, due to it being all about avoiding what is unnecessary. So if you don’t have to do harm to a cow, why do it? For me, I am starting to find more and more chocolate around that is dairy free (though it still is not common). What has surprised me most is ice-cream. I have found some that isn’t just dairy free, but is delicious! As good as ‘normal’ ice-cream. And there are vegan magnum ice-creams being made now to. Looking forward to nomming on one of those!

I like what you guys are saying, with the don’t think about vegan as a title too much. And I am not sure if I could hang out in vegan groups. Maybe I am not an animal lover, but I prefer them to humans ;)
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Re: Veganism

29 Jan 2019 11:06

One morning I woke up and decided I couldn't look at a big fat juicy steak any more let alone eat one.
sienna
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29 Jan 2019 11:58

I will involve myself more when I get chance. The main reason I asked is because eating a plant-based diet and Veganism are two very different things. Similarly, if I decide to keep Kosher or Halal, that wouldn't make me Jewish or Muslim. Being vegan requires you to make every effort to do the least harm you can, across your whole life. What interests me in that regard is where people draw the line, how they determine what is least harm and so on.

I've previously posted in this thread about the mouse plague carried out in Australia (I think). This is done to preserve crops for people and, depending on your opinion and how you calculate things, can result in a vegan meal being more cruel than an omnivorous meal. Farming animals on only pasture is another interesting question. Does the husbandry and slaughter outweigh the ecological system this farming supports, effectively providing for many other animals, insects and so on? Do people value the life of an insect to the same level they value that of a cow? Surely a vegan must, otherwise they are doing the same thing they accuse omnivores of doing, determining which life is more important. (Lets not even get into the ridiculous discussion around plants being alive and so on, it's not even worth wasting time on).

This isn't about sitting in judgement and attempting to trip people up by the way. I'm well aware that anyone making a conscious effort to move towards eating less meat is almost certain to do less harm than someone who doesn't. Even those who research everything about an omnivorous diet, buy crops that are not treated to remove insects etc., only buy meat from farms raising animals on pasture and only locally to cut down on their carbon footprint and the damage to animals in this sense are still likely to do more harm than someone eating a plant based diet and doing something to remove animal products from other aspects of their lives.

As this is a cycling internet forum I'll point out 2 interesting areas where Veganism is relevant. Certain tyre manufacturers use animal products in their rubber (I think continental do). How many vegan cyclists would think to look this up and stop using these brands? What about computers/phones etc? Getting the raw materials to produce these things is incredibly destructive and kills countless animals. How many vegans only buy these items second hand and avoid purchasing anything unless they absolutely need it? I haven't contributed to this industry for about 5+ years I think (I've had a Kindle bought for me but all my other electronics are second-hand/provided by work as a requirement of my job). Does this make me more vegan than the person who eats a vegan diet but buys every console and game they can get their hands on, updates their phone every 6 months and is constantly replacing parts in their PC to improve its performance? Can they justify it by saying these things are necessary? I can see good arguments for and against this, after all science is the thing that keeps us alive, art is the things that makes us want to live.

I think the fundamental issue most people have with Veganism, at least the issue I see most in discussions, is that it's presented as an absolutism when simply explained/advertised, and this simply isn't the case.
Vincenzo Nibali:
"I know how to ride a bike"

Reduce your carbon footprint, ride steel.
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29 Jan 2019 18:13

https://twentytwowords.com/pizza-hut-forced-apologize-vegan-serving-dairy-ice-cream/

Beer is another product that can complicate strict vegan claims.
aphronesis
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