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Re: Re:

02 Apr 2016 16:13

Glenn_Wilson wrote:
aphronesis wrote:Amen brother. More notes from the underground. Crack those windows for a bit of air and light. The crusades are over and you're still ranting about an inbred Euro cult.

I wonder if the Ancient Aliens were vegetarians.


Well they didn't abduct all the cows.
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Re: Veganism

02 Apr 2016 16:30

Echoes wrote:Why be so formalist? We are talking about food, so it has a place here. I don't feel like going back to that thread again ...

Timothy 4:1-5 does not explicitly say that animals are created as food. It just says we cannot forbid anyone to eat but what is food? Paul explains in Corinthians 8:13 that he had to quit eating meat in order not to scandalise his "brothers", thereby assuming that early Christians were vegetarians (confirmed by several sources) and probably so was Jesus (not just pesco-vegetarian as He's sometimes referred to).

Why the anti religious vegans are hypocrites is just because if care for animals is really their ideal, their attacks against religion is at the same time an attack against the main obstacle to mass consumption of in particular meat. It's just a mixture of hypocrisy and stupidity, there. The 1970's which were anti-religious years through and through were also years of a consumerist boom because the war and privation years of the forties and seventies increased Euro appetite tenfold. So gluttony was the standard, as illustrated by the horrible though interesting film La grande abbuffata by Marco Ferreri. Churches emptied but supermarket filled in. Nobody wanted to hear anymore about the Lent, about fasting, about meat prohibition on Fridays, etc. So as a Catholic I have no moral lesson to receive from atheistic vegans, on the contrary. Until the sixties/seventies common people rarely ate meat. It was not just because they could not afford it, it also was a habit. When they ate meat, it was often out of necessity, because there are regions like here in Belgium where nothing grows in winter. Nowadays, everybody wants his own hamburger, his hot dog, his underdone steak which here on the Continent is more the result of an Americanization of the ways of life than of tradition.

Religious people defend a natural order based on common good. Atheist opposed to it an order based on individualism or general interest (which is the sum of every particular interest) in which society is made for everyone to satisfy their endless needs and desires in absolute freedom. No wonder that in such an order, meat consumption and animal slaughtering gets huge. In order for veganism to prevail massively it needs a religious revival, a counter-revolution. A restoration of traditions, of authority, if only at school because it has to start with education, kids have to understand that they cannot always get what they want. And a restoration of discipline and fighting against oneself.


In 1 Corinthians 8:13 Paul doesn't say he stopped eating meat. He says "IF" eating food causes my brother to stumble I will never eat meat again. You can look at the earlier verses to see the context.

But food will not commend us to God; we are neither the worse if we do not eat, nor the better if we do eat. 9 But take care that this liberty of yours does not somehow become a stumbling block to the weak. (1 Corinthians 8:8-9)

The eating of meat in and of its self isn't sin. What is sin is when we stumble brothers or sisters. For example, If I'm eating at a restaurant with a Seven Day Adventist, I'm not going to order a slab of pork. That would be wrong.

Also Paul is talking about eating meat in 1 Timothy. Teachers have never preached to abstain from vegetables. When talking about abstaining from foods it's always in the context of meat.
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02 Apr 2016 20:52

The huntsmen in the lodge were invariably getting drunk and someone was always shot. By contrast, the gardeners in the orangery never ceased to dance and make love in the grove.
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Re:

02 Apr 2016 23:31

rhubroma wrote:The huntsmen in the lodge were invariably getting drunk and someone was always shot. By contrast, the gardeners in the orangery never ceased to dance and make love in the grove.


Getting drunk on the wine produced by the gardeners? :p
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17 Sep 2018 16:52

Plants can 'feel' you picking them!

Video shows that leaves fire off pain signals to warn their neighbours of danger when attacked

* Plant leaves send pain signals that are similar to those found in human beings
* The response is so sensitive it can be set off by the footprints of a caterpillar
* It triggers a release of defence hormones to help protect the plant from danger



Oops.
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Re:

18 Sep 2018 00:11

StyrbjornSterki wrote:Plants can 'feel' you picking them!

Video shows that leaves fire off pain signals to warn their neighbours of danger when attacked

* Plant leaves send pain signals that are similar to those found in human beings
* The response is so sensitive it can be set off by the footprints of a caterpillar
* It triggers a release of defence hormones to help protect the plant from danger



Oops.


Hmmm, based on reading the actual study, that is an absolutely terrible article, designed to elicit an incorrect response. This article doesn't link to it, but the full text is available via a search on "Involvement of putative glutamate receptors in plant defence signaling and NO production". Most sites block access but there is a .pdf in the google scholarly search results if you want to read it. There is no mention of "pain", a term which appears to have been inserted by the Daily Mail. What the study describes and demonstrates is the "signaling" mechanism of plants and the sensitivity of that signaling.

Plants still don't have nervous systems. :)
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Re: Veganism

18 Sep 2018 06:15

"Are you going to believe me or what you see with your own eyes?"

“It doesn’t matter what I do. People need to hear what I have to say. There’s no one else who can say what I can say. It doesn’t matter what I live.”
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Re: Re:

05 Oct 2018 11:18

Jspear wrote:
ray j willings wrote:I'm becoming more and more convinced that vegan is the way to go. Its just a bacon sandwich with ketchup, I cant stop myself .


Yes, imo you have to be a hard core vegan/vegetarian to fight off the temptation of bacon. I have a friend who raises pigs...freshly cured bacon is simply heavenly. :p :D

Sorry...back to the normal conversation here.


Interesting to see this thread finally get a BUMP. I wondered where it had gone to, and now it's back!

I cannot remember my exact comments without re-reading, but a few years ago I was interested in this subject and made the occasional comments here. I've become even more interested in the time that has passed, and am pretty much living Vegan now, without being a Vegan (I feel socially awkward in certain situations and am not someone who is confrontational, plus I think it's hypocritical to take too big a stance when I was only recently a meat eater myself, etc). I haven't eaten meat since the end of last year, which involved telling my parents that I was becoming vegetarian since I would have a get together meal with them once a week that involved meat. In fact, I tell a lie....I started this year still eating fish; that was my compromise with them, but now that's done with too. It can become rather socially difficult for all parties once someone changes their consumption habits so much, even if you are not confrontational. My Mum has been noticing me not eating animal products so much when around them too. It's a real catch 22. Doing what feels right for you vs. still getting along with others. Even my housemate seems to have issues with it, in the sense that he'll 'jokingly' bring up what I'm eating/drinking - or not - often. I don't pass judgement on his eating meat and drinking milk, but you see, I am passing judgement, in a way, by not consuming what he is. One of his ways of being nice to me was to offer me chocolates and stuff too; there is probably natural offence taken to my kind and quiet rejection.

Learning more and more about this subject, I have to say that Vegans are right. They may not go about expressing their views in the right way all the time, but generally speaking they are right. It is reasonably healthy to not consume animal products, and in much of the western world it is, much of the time, fairly unnecessary to consume them. However, contrary to what many Vegans preach, it is not easy to go Vegan.

At least in Australia, if you walk down a mainstream supermarket chocolate aisle, then 99% of that chocolate will not be Vegan. What's more, most Vegan foods do not have VEGAN plastered across them in shiny letters. And the number of grey areas when it comes to whether something is vegan or not, is huge. Trust me, I know, because I always look out for this stuff now. And even when you might think something is Vegan, then look a little closer, and a lot of the time it has a little egg, or a little milk, or a little cheese.

Slowly more Vegan options are infiltrating into mainstream stores though. There is now a Vegan cheeseburger at Hungry Jacks/Burger King, though at this stage still only in select stores (and not in Victoria where I live I think; whereas South Australia seems to be making the switch at a faster rate). I've been buying a Veggie Patty at Subway for years (which might not even be Vegan, a lot of stuff like that is definitely vegetarian, but questionable when it comes to the big V), and now they have a falafel wrap, which tastes great, and is Vegan. Praise the Lord! But I would have it with sweet chilli sauce, and so decided to look it up, and if you google that you will see that some sweet chilli sauces have animal products.

People who say that it is easy to go Vegan are not helping matters.

Two other subject matters are largely ignored when it comes to Veganism, and they can be related to each other. One is that food is very important to some people. Well, food is very important to everyone :lol: But what I mean is that it is a HUGE passion for some people, their favourite thing in life, a major aspect of what makes them happy. This is where many Vegans miss the point again. It is much easier to go Vegan (or to at least reduce your consumption of animal products) if eating is not one of your biggest passions. Personally I've always felt that much more pleasure and meaningfulness could be derived from walking up a mountain, or gazing at a beautiful lake, or listening to some wonderful music, or doing some personal writing. But I am not everyone. For most people what they consume is their way of life, and in a way even their identity. Now that I am discovering all of the Vegan sausages, quinoa burgers, sausage rolls and nuggets that are out there (and that they taste nice and are filling enough) it might seem 'easy', but even I can see that it is not easy for someone who enjoys bacon on a weekly basis.

On that subject, I used to like bacon, but not as much as many other people. And after a while of not eating it, and changing my mindset, I do not miss it at all. I don't see bacon in a burger and feel a desire to eat it. You would probably think that I am lying! But I am not.

Also related to the earlier subject is the fact that many people simply live very busy, very stressful, very unhappy lives. They're tied up to a spouse that they don't love, work a job that gives them grief, and just generally don't really have a lot to look forward to. Consuming that "wonderful, magical animal" is their source of happiness. If people need to make changes at all, then those changes need to be gradual.

By the way, I care a little about animals, but not as much as most Vegans do. I don't lose sleep over all of the animals that are dying 'needlessly' every second. There is a lot of bad that happens in the world. If we blamed ourselves for that then it would be difficult to feel very happy, very often. Fortunately for me, I am rather selfish.

Oh, and pets are another big subject here. I have two dogs, and am becoming more and more aware of the major contradiction between loving them, and killing hundreds/thousands of animals to feed them. I am going to attempt to transition them away from meat, or at least to less meat, but even if this is possible, then again this is something that is not made easy. Try walking down an aisle full of dog and cat food and finding anything vegetarian. You will probably have more luck with trying to find a clean professional cyclist :D
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