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30 Nov 2014 18:16

Easy for you to say that. I bet you have never been harassed on the streets. It's not what they say. It's HOW they say it. When a guy picks me from a group of people, and calls me "darling", I feel embarrassed and uncomfortable. Men may think they are just complimenting the women, but news flash, most women don't like it at all.
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30 Nov 2014 18:17

FoxxyBrown1111 wrote:In the wider sense of the topic... a must see:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b1XGPvbWn0A

Some of the best comments below this video, in my opinion:

"Anyone who donated is a moron. Simple as that."

And: "Since when is "How you doing today?" ,"How are you this morning?" , "Have a nice evening." , " Hello, goodmorning. God bless you. Have a good day alright? " ," Whats up miss?", and " Have a nice evening darling." harassment? This is total bull****. And that's coming from a woman herself"

And:
"I love the look of absolute disdain on her face, I can just imagine her thought process, "Ugh, all these mysoginistic men offering me compliments and well wishes. Sexist pigs noticing my beautiful hair, clear skin, and shapely figure, clearly I am the most oppressed and discriminated person in the world!"
Meanwhile, Meghna, a textile worker in Bangladesh, is finishing up her sixteen hour shift at the shirt factory; she received approximately 1.25 US dollars in return for her labor, and will likely go without supper tonight so that her four children can eat."

---------------

Oh you brutally sick femi-nazis. Why don´t you hide in the Sahara or Gobi? Nobody talks to you. And you have great free space for all your gender-mainstream experiments. But how you make it to the next generation of femi-nazis? Sex with aliens? Or "only" sperm-banks from men you hate so much? You are such hypocrities...


Meanwhile women (and others) are raped/sexually assaulted/sexually harrassed everyday and it usually goes unreported.

One day you might have to confront it too. Who knows. If you ever have a woman, crying and shaking, say "I think I was raped last night" to you and you stick around for the fall-out you might think differently. Of course, unless they've been beaten up, nothing usually happens and the woman is left, traumatized, searching for meaning having experienced something she has no frame of reference for and the general culture would rather ignore.
7-11 becomes a convenience store...and the ancient Egyptians wept.
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30 Nov 2014 18:20

LaFlorecita wrote:Easy for you to say that. I bet you have never been harassed on the streets. It's not what they say. It's HOW they say it. When a guy picks me from a group of people, and calls me "darling", I feel embarrassed and uncomfortable. Men may think they are just complimenting the women, but news flash, most women don't like it at all.


Don´t mistake yourself with the majority of other women. They like compliments, even if repeated x-times. Firsthand expierience. :)
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30 Nov 2014 18:24

FoxxyBrown1111 wrote:Don´t mistake yourself with the majority of other women. They like compliments, even if repeated x-times. Firsthand expierience. :)


Women don't like sexualized compliments from strangers. Scrap that, all the women I know don't like them. Perhaps we're just a strange bunch, the 50 of us.
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30 Nov 2014 18:26

Amsterhammer wrote:Guys - Foxxy and Flo - I have no axe to grind here, and no iron in this fire. Please don't give 'them' an excuse for closing this topic. This is a serious subject that should be approached and discussed in a serious way.

Patrick, high five.


^This^ Everyone please keep debate civil and keep insults out of it. And if someone posts a personal attack/insult to you, attacking and insulting them right back will do you no good.
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30 Nov 2014 18:28

FoxxyBrown1111 wrote:Don´t mistake yourself with the majority of other women. They like compliments, even if repeated x-times. Firsthand expierience. :)


Some opinions on the matter
http://www.vox.com/2014/10/30/7129557/yes-a-compliment-can-be-street-harassment-reactions-to-the-hollaback

http://www.thestylus.net/news/view.php/856550/Street-harassment-is-not-a-harmless-comp

https://usilive.org/street-harassment-is-never-a-compliment/

http://ibzine.idu.edu.pl/?p=794

"Although men think that this is a form of flattery which is sincere and not meant to offend anyone, in most cases it is very uncomfortable and demeaning to women. There is a difference between paying a woman a respectful compliment and catcalling her."
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30 Nov 2014 18:34

"I love the look of absolute disdain on her face, I can just imagine her thought process, "Ugh, all these mysoginistic men offering me compliments and well wishes. Sexist pigs noticing my beautiful hair, clear skin, and shapely figure, clearly I am the most oppressed and discriminated person in the world!"
Meanwhile, Meghna, a textile worker in Bangladesh, is finishing up her sixteen hour shift at the shirt factory; she received approximately 1.25 US dollars in return for her labor, and will likely go without supper tonight so that her four children can eat."

What a ridiculous argument. "Women have it even worse elsewhere, so you can't complain." Really?

A woman casually walking down the streets shouldn't have to endure unsolicited "compliments" coming from total strangers. Sure, one compliment is no big deal by itself - until you realize how often that same woman will have had to endure the exact same thing.
Oh you brutally sick femi-nazis. Why don´t you hide in the Sahara or Gobi? Nobody talks to you. And you have great free space for all your gender-mainstream experiments. But how you make it to the next generation of femi-nazis? Sex with aliens? Or "only" sperm-banks from men you hate so much? You are such hypocrities...

This doesn't even make any sense.
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01 Dec 2014 00:12

I'm having a hard time understanding the use of the term "femi-nazi" in the context of this conversation. Speaking out against sexual assault has absolutely nothing to do with political ideology. This is about basic human rights.
I'm going to give the benefit of the doubt to those who are using this term and assume they are simply trying to stir the pot.
Pretty much every woman I know has has been a victim of some form of sexual assault at some point in their lives. This is simply unacceptable, and we as a society need to address the issue in a meaningful way.
Politicizing the issue and/or clouding it by introducing the notion of false claims does not help.
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08 Dec 2014 15:06

the delgados wrote:I'm having a hard time understanding the use of the term "femi-nazi" in the context of this conversation. Speaking out against sexual assault has absolutely nothing to do with political ideology.


You couldn´t be more wrong than that. It´s highly political. Just read both threads completely and try to ignore the sensless discussions about grammar nuances. You´ll find the truth.

the delgados wrote: This is about basic human rights.


Exactly. And around 50% of wrong accusations are simply unacceptable for a democracy (even though that wasn´t the way you thought about it when writing your post. I am just holding up a mirror).

the delgados wrote:Pretty much every woman I know has has been a victim of some form of sexual assault at some point in their lives. This is simply unacceptable, and we as a society need to address the issue in a meaningful way.


First of all. That´s sad news. And I agree crimes and injustices in any way shall be addressed in our societies.

Further: Do you mean because of the experiences the women you know got trou, it´s ok to get "collateral damage" with around 50% of wrongly accused men getting their lives destroyed? You really mean that? :o

the delgados wrote:Politicizing the issue and/or clouding it by introducing the notion of false claims does not help.


Oh yes it helps... And it´s highly political. Not for the victims, but for organisations who spot sexual crimes where are none. That´s a hard slap into the face of truly raped and harassed women. Those "femi-Nazi" groups with their powerful influence that twisted clear laws, are to blame for the easy manipulations that are possible nowadays which lead to the unacceptable high number of wrong accusations, where the wrong accusers go scott-free even after their lies are uncovered. Just go back and read the links...
And important side note: This powerful groups with their crude agendas give a **** about the victims. All they care about is power and influence. In that case they are no inch better than men who use shields of any kind to cover their true intentions: Gaining more power.

Finally: Basically every grown up men I know were victims of some form of physical violence in their lives. Would that fact justify a high number of wrong accusations? For me: Clearly not, even though being a victim more than once myself.

And another video of "street harassment". This time not a 10 hour experience, but only three:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=75aX9mlipiY

;)
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09 Dec 2014 00:16

The problem with terms like "femi-nazi" is that they nearly always have an absence of definition from the person using them. Rush Limbaugh, who frequently used the word, is a perfect example. Of course that guy is just a gasbag deeper in the bowls of humanity than anyone on this forum could ever fall to, but I think I made my point.

The issue with the "politics" (which should be defined also in this context I suppose), is that while the act of violence against women isn't political in itself, if you open up any website, newspaper, etc. on this issue, it won't take long before you find someone using the issue as a political wedge for one angle or agenda or another, which is sad I think, but true.
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09 Dec 2014 00:31

By now you probably have seen or at least have heard of the viral video capturing 108 catcalls to a woman silently walking the streets of NYC. If you haven’t yet, you definitely should! Each of the comments from the strangers is a catcall – a comment that objectifies and sexualizes a woman. That includes seemingly polite statements such as „smile” and „hello”.


So I'm objectifying and sexualizing women if I say hello to them? How are you going to meet new people then, if that is off limits :o
Goodbye, Tommeke; thank you for all you have given us!
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09 Dec 2014 01:12

Alpe d'Huez wrote:The problem with terms like "femi-nazi" is that they nearly always have an absence of definition from the person using them. Rush Limbaugh, who frequently used the word, is a perfect example. Of course that guy is just a gasbag deeper in the bowls of humanity than anyone on this forum could ever fall to, but I think I made my point.


Yep. you did. :)
And yet the great DE Burt Grossman was (is?) a fan of him. And then he wrote a book :rolleyes:
Imagine I read it trou-out. And further imagine, he made some points! One of his favo parts was ACLU and how they "successfully" twisted reality. He was the first I ever heard calling them with an agenda against common sense and humanity what they are: "Femi-Nazis". Later on, some US courts themselves called them (ACLU) a "nazi like regime". Their shield? "Feminism". As I said more than once: A slap into the face of truly abused women who really fight for their human rights.
We have such groups like that in Germany. They all are hell to freedom, democracy, and human rights. Their leader, Alice Schwarzer, just lately got exposed as a big time tax evader. Yet she played the high morale role for so-called "feminists" for decades, and was the first to call to "hang" Kachelmann, without any evidence, as a rapist. What a disgusting "woman". And as usual, non-themselves-thinking weak women felt into her trap & applauded her. That´s the evil (in this cases female) persons I call Femi-Nazis... And I guess Grossman had the same in mind...

Alpe d'Huez wrote:The issue with the "politics" (which should be defined also in this context I suppose), is that while the act of violence against women isn't political in itself, if you open up any website, newspaper, etc. on this issue, it won't take long before you find someone using the issue as a political wedge for one angle or agenda or another, which is sad I think, but true.


100% agree. That´s what I tried to get over here in two threads in something like two weeks. What did I got in return? Personal attacks (by those who shouted out the loudest), instead of disscusions about the matter.

Netserk wrote:So I'm objectifying and sexualizing women if I say hello to them? How are you going to meet new people then, if that is off limits :o


How about not to talk to them at all, and keep your head low in full shame? May some beautiful woman feels sorry and talks to you then. ;)
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09 Dec 2014 02:54

FoxxyBrown1111 wrote: It was their mistake to get drunk and lose self control beyond help. If they got a traumata the next day? Their mistake.


I know this comment was in reference to the concert goers, but this is such an ignorant and stupid statement/view.

A friend of mine's 13yo niece was given alcohol constantly by 3 14yo "boys" who then each raped her. She never knew because she was so drunk, but found out later when then boys were bragging about what they'd done to her.

Her mistake, you say??
Nothing to do with the boy's behaviour/attitude at all??

:rolleyes:
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09 Dec 2014 03:12

Archibald wrote:I know this comment was in reference to the concert goers, but this is such an ignorant and stupid statement/view.

A friend of mine's 13yo niece was given alcohol constantly by 3 14yo "boys" who then each raped her. She never knew because she was so drunk, but found out later when then boys were bragging about what they'd done to her.

Her mistake, you say??
Nothing to do with the boy's behaviour/attitude at all??

:rolleyes:


You, I, and eveybody else who read "my post in question" (and saw the linked concert from the time it got out of hand) knows this sad story you tell, and what happened at the great WOA 2014 have absolutely nothing in common. So what is the purpose of your post? :confused:
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09 Dec 2014 03:14

godwin's law once again proved in this thread. if it continues any further it is in danger of treading into reductio ad hitlerum territory.

a corollary to the above is the cacas-iactis simia law, which basically states that is is futile to engage in a discussion with those given to use hyperbole as fact.
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09 Dec 2014 03:26

And now if you would be kind enough to translate the latin of your post into english, it simply would be great for everybody to understand.
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09 Dec 2014 04:25

Archibald wrote:I know this comment was in reference to the concert goers, but this is such an ignorant and stupid statement/view.

A friend of mine's 13yo niece was given alcohol constantly by 3 14yo "boys" who then each raped her. She never knew because she was so drunk, but found out later when then boys were bragging about what they'd done to her.

Her mistake, you say??
Nothing to do with the boy's behaviour/attitude at all??

:rolleyes:


This horrific story you are describing is completely different from women who decide to drink from their own volition.
Skyline Drive
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Canton Ave Climb
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09 Dec 2014 06:24

FoxxyBrown1111 wrote:You, I, and eveybody else who read "my post in question" (and saw the linked concert from the time it got out of hand) knows this sad story you tell, and what happened at the great WOA 2014 have absolutely nothing in common. So what is the purpose of your post? :confused:


Jspear wrote:This horrific story you are describing is completely different from women who decide to drink from their own volition.


It is not about whether the drinking is voluntary or not - it is more about the attitude that it is okay to take advantage of drunken women. To then claim that it is "their mistake", is akin to the "they were asking for it" defence for rapists...
"She was drinking and therefore it's okay to take advantage of her" is not a valid reason to molest/rape women - period.

It's unfortunate, but boys and men are not taught that this sort of behaviour is wrong. Think of all the teenage boys and young impressionable men who will take that band's behaviour as acceptable... This is why MI made the comment that it's worse for happening in front of millions of viewers...

Jspear, the girl in question was drinking voluntarily... no funnelling, just peer group pressure to drink more.
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09 Dec 2014 07:59

Netserk wrote:So I'm objectifying and sexualizing women if I say hello to them? How are you going to meet new people then, if that is off limits :o


If you only say hello to women, pretty women, then yes.

Let's be honest here, if you're just passing by, on your way to work or the supermarket, and you say "hello" to a pretty woman you've just spotted, you're not trying to meet new people :o

Men don't know what it feels like, being called names on every corner of the street. Once you are familiar with that feeling, you'll realize that a simple "hello" or "smile" can be very uncomfortable too.
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09 Dec 2014 08:42

LaFlorecita wrote:If you only say hello to women, pretty women, then yes.

Let's be honest here, if you're just passing by, on your way to work or the supermarket, and you say "hello" to a pretty woman you've just spotted, you're not trying to meet new people :o

Men don't know what it feels like, being called names on every corner of the street. Once you are familiar with that feeling, you'll realize that a simple "hello" or "smile" can be very uncomfortable too.


I'm glad you said this. The point is obvious to me, but I really think it isn’t for a lot of men. Men should just ask themselves, do they say hello to strange men that they pass on the street? A few do, and those men may also say hello to women without it’s meaning anything more. Some people are just friendly to strangers. But men who say hello only to women are pretty obviously coming on to them.

That said, I think Netserk has a point. Good-looking women are more likely to have men come on to them, not just in situations where meeting them may be out of the question, but in times and places where meeting them is possible.

E.g., what about inside the supermarket? What if a man approaches a woman there and tries to talk to her? She may resent it, but I think men have to be allowed to do this without it’s being considered harassment. If the woman bluntly says, I’m not interested in talking to you, and the man won’t take the hint and move away, the situation changes, but the initial approach, IMO, can’t be considered out of bounds. Men have to be allowed to try. I know the internet has changed the dating scene considerably, that approaches, from both sides, can be made behind a protective layer, so to speak, but in my view nothing yet completely replaces seeing someone in the real.

I’m sure there are many women who are approached a lot in this manner, and wish they weren’t. They may feel it's unfair that they can never go anywhere without suffering the unwanted attentions of men. But in the first place, many such women may be available, and may in fact meet someone of interest this way. And even if they aren't available, or never meet anyone of interest, they should keep in mind that there are plenty of women who are dying to meet a man and may never get approached in this manner.

IMO, it sort of balances out. The women who get lots of opportunities have to pay for it by being bothered more than they like. The women who go through life without being bothered may have the downside of struggling constantly to find someone they want to be with.

Beyond this, I think there is a very fine line we’re walking on here. There are many times when an aggressive approach, a refusal to give up, is rewarded. E.g., someone may be turned down for a job, but s/he refuses to take no for an answer, continues to try to convince the employers to change their mind, and may be rewarded with getting the job. And the employers may come to realize their initial impressions were mistaken, and be glad the person was persistent.

It’s really quite natural for men to carry over this attitude to courtship. Just because a woman rejects a man upon meeting him briefly doesn’t mean she might not change her mind if she got to know him better. A man may genuinely feel the only way the woman is going to see enough of him to make a fair judgment is if he persists in trying to meet her. I understand how easily this process can be abused, but IMO it’s hard to blame a man for making a persistent effort. I guess the issue is that he has to be as polite and empathic as possible.

***********************

Back to Foxxy’s point about men falsely accused. In that article that I mentioned that was linked within Foxxy’s link, they did find that a lot of women did falsely accuse men of rape or harassment. But as I also noted, a lot of women did not identify any particular man, and those who did all confessed early enough in the investigative process that the man wasn’t subject to any legal problems. It’s still an open question to me how often this happens. There are incidents, sure, but the question is, how do you weigh them vs. the very large number of genuine rapes? I would need to see more data.

I think there’s some parallel to anti-doping efforts here. We try to minimize the number of false positives, but you can’t catch any dopers unless you have a criterion that is low enough to occasionally threaten a false positive. In the same way, men falsely accused of rape are the false positives of anti-rape efforts. We have to minimize this number, but it’s probably unrealistic to think we can flat-out eliminate it. If you change the environment to encourage women to report genuine rapes, you're also going to encourage women who want to use a false accusation as a weapon against some man they for some reason want to hurt. The easier it is to get society to take genuine rape accusations seriously, the easier it is for false accusations to be taken seriously.
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