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Moderators: Irondan, Eshnar, Alpe d'Huez, Red Rick, Tonton, Pricey_sky, King Boonen

06 May 2017 06:10

It certainly seems that the head of steam that the SNP were building up in the wake of the EU vote has somewhat dissipated, and after a May landslide next month the political situation in Parliament won't lend itself to another referendum being willingly offered. But, I really do believe that Brexit will do for the country as a whole, culturally and economically, and I think in those circumstances an angry Scottish independence movement will be hard to resist. I'm not Scottish, and my position on Scottish independence is that Im not sure its much of my business. The only resentment I have towards it is the potential impact it would have on me...perpetual Tory rule. I'm am I interested in the possible future of an independent Scotland and deep down I'd like to see it go its own way and form a successful semi-socialist state.
mcduff
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Re:

07 May 2017 00:08

mcduff wrote:It certainly seems that the head of steam that the SNP were building up in the wake of the EU vote has somewhat dissipated, and after a May landslide next month the political situation in Parliament won't lend itself to another referendum being willingly offered. But, I really do believe that Brexit will do for the country as a whole, culturally and economically, and I think in those circumstances an angry Scottish independence movement will be hard to resist. I'm not Scottish, and my position on Scottish independence is that Im not sure its much of my business. The only resentment I have towards it is the potential impact it would have on me...perpetual Tory rule. I'm am I interested in the possible future of an independent Scotland and deep down I'd like to see it go its own way and form a successful semi-socialist state.


More good analysis, which I can't disagree with. But the Scottish Govnt have voted in favour of Section 30 of the Scotland Act, so May can't really deny it, apart from the timing. It's a bit of a game of poker at the moment but as you rightly say, let's wait until we see the results of the GE North and South of the border. A successful semi-socialist country, yes please:)

ps the Scottish vote, even when it was predominantly Labour rarely influenced the UK overall result (if ever).
User avatar ferryman
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08 May 2017 11:23

Only semi-socialist?!?!? Lets seize the means of production comrades!!
Vincenzo Nibali:
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User avatar King Boonen
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British politics

08 May 2017 15:49

Theresa May:
"Yesterday a new French president was elected. He was elected with a strong mandate which he can take as a strong position in the negotiations. In the UK we need to ensure we’ve got an equally strong mandate and an equally strong negotiating position. And every vote for me and my team will strengthen my hand in those Brexit negotiations."

She is really clutching at straws here


Michael Gove :
"One of the reasons that Theresa May has done so well politically, is that she articulates a sense that for those people who have felt overlooked because they don’t have the connections or the capital to influence what happens in Westminster, she is their champion. In that sense the Brexit vote and the support for the Conservatives since then has been a very mild and gentle counter-revolution. And it is a counter-revolution that has put Theresa at its head."

Ding Ding Ding! We have a winner! It is not Macron or Trump who is the most succesful in improbably branding themselves as 'anti-establishment': it is Theresa May. The woman who went to Oxford, worked at the BofE, had two failed attempts at entering politics, was a shadow frontbench politician for twelve years, was (a failure of a) Home Secretary for six, and has been expressing leadership ideas since 2010. She is so immersed in the establishment that she thinks she isn't part of it anymore. And the main reason Gove gives for this idiocy? She is dull. Ridiculously dull and depressingly uncharismatic. She has no way with words, is an awful orator and hates being asked questions about her career or policies. This somehow makes her 'anti-establishment'. If the British electorate actually believe this (I have more than enough respect for them that I do not think this is the case), I will have lost all hope in Brits and British democracy, as it is clearly completely hijacked by the interests of dastardly foreign outside meddlers like Murdoch and Lord Rothermere.


Still Gove:
"One of the reason why my words had a resonance ... is that they spoke to a feeling that voters appeared to feel that they had been patronised and elites in some cases felt that their leadership was not respected in the way that it had been perhaps a generation ago."

This argument makes very little sense and he is starting to realise it.

Say you have a problem with plumbing in your house. You call a plumber. The plumber either advises you to do something or does it themselves. Now, here you have two options: either listen to them as they are an expert in their field, or drive them out of the house immediately and ignore what he said completely.

I know it is not completely the same, as in any good democracy there should be a difference of opinion between important experts and institution. You could say: I have taken on board what this expert has said, but I have chosen to follow this one. Fine, because there is bound to be another expert with an oppostie viewpoint. But to just ignore what all experts have to say is plain stupid. Once again, it is either an insult to the people of britain to say this, or a testament to their stupidity. I like to think the latter. Once again, it proves though how much of an influence tabloids have. If you constantly smear and distort various economists and their words or just experts in general, then people will obviously start to feel patronised by them. And there are people who are very patronising, but its wrong to paint all of them with the same brush.


One last thing, Labour have announced a new plan to abolish parking charges at hospitals, and have costed it quite easily. Therefore, the Tories and Liberals took it upon them to attack them without saying anything substantial other than "idea is bad because labour".

Here are their full quotes:

"This promise isn’t worth the paper it’s written on because Jeremy Corbyn simply wouldn’t be able to deliver it. With Corbyn in charge of our Brexit negotiations, the economy and our NHS would be at grave risk. There would be less money to spend in hospitals, not more."- the strong and stable robots

"Labour have failed as an opposition and voted with the Conservatives for a Hard Brexit that will mean less money for the NHS."-the endangered and unimportant ones
Brullnux
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Re:

08 May 2017 23:02

King Boonen wrote:Only semi-socialist?!?!? Lets seize the means of production comrades!!

The semi was a concession KB. If you had lived in Scotland during the Thatcher years it would be 1000%, but times have'd moved on so, yes, semi is just about right for most Scots.
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09 May 2017 14:06

The Big 6 unsurprisingly against a price cap/freeze, a clearly marxist proposal of government intervention.

Theresa May in favour of killing foxes for sport.
Brullnux
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Re: Re:

10 May 2017 10:27

ferryman wrote:
King Boonen wrote:Only semi-socialist?!?!? Lets seize the means of production comrades!!

The semi was a concession KB. If you had lived in Scotland during the Thatcher years it would be 1000%, but times have'd moved on so, yes, semi is just about right for most Scots.


I come from a Yorkshire mining family, easy to see where my political views were founded :)
Vincenzo Nibali:
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Reduce your carbon footprint, ride steel.
User avatar King Boonen
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Re: Re:

11 May 2017 00:43

King Boonen wrote:
ferryman wrote:
King Boonen wrote:Only semi-socialist?!?!? Lets seize the means of production comrades!!

The semi was a concession KB. If you had lived in Scotland during the Thatcher years it would be 1000%, but times have'd moved on so, yes, semi is just about right for most Scots.


I come from a Yorkshire mining family, easy to see where my political views were founded :)


Ditto, except Edinburgh mining family. Grandad was killed in Gilmerton pit in an accident at a ridiculously young age and unfortunately before I was born, so never got to know him:(
User avatar ferryman
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11 May 2017 12:29

Labour manifesto leaked, albeit without costings. Disappointed they didn't have the balls to drop Trident (which would by itself pay for most of their pledges). In fact, the more I think about the more I realise Trident is an enormous waste of money. The main argument for it is "we'll get attacked if we don't have it", which perfectly explains why Germany has been the subject of multiple nuclear attacks over the past decade. Anyway, it isn't overly radical but is still the most leftwing one since 1983, but it's more what Ed Miliband wanted to write rather than straight from the Foot 'suicide note'. Even Polly Toynbee, Corbyn critic and SDP supporter, likes it. It's probably the most transformational and forward thinking one since Thatcher 1979 too (forward thinking as in looking at how to shape the long term future), or even Attlee '45.

My main worry is costings, though. Increasing corporation tax on multinationals will raise a lot of money, but compounded with Brexit might make a couple of companies leave. However, that's only the case if we also leave the single market, which Labour have expressed interest in staying in. The income tax increases will raise next to nothing in all probability if they are as moderate as McDonnell was trying to convince people they were. So yeah, a decent enough manifesto which is very comprehensive as well. I'll be surprised if the Tories don't release 70 pages of waffle as their's.

Other people's thoughts?
Brullnux
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Re: Re:

11 May 2017 18:18

King Boonen wrote:
ferryman wrote:
King Boonen wrote:Only semi-socialist?!?!? Lets seize the means of production comrades!!

The semi was a concession KB. If you had lived in Scotland during the Thatcher years it would be 1000%, but times have'd moved on so, yes, semi is just about right for most Scots.


I come from a Yorkshire mining family, easy to see where my political views were founded :)

Wow Yorkshire the home of the Major Tour.
User avatar Semper Fidelis
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Re:

12 May 2017 01:12

Brullnux wrote:Labour manifesto leaked, albeit without costings. Disappointed they didn't have the balls to drop Trident (which would by itself pay for most of their pledges). In fact, the more I think about the more I realise Trident is an enormous waste of money. The main argument for it is "we'll get attacked if we don't have it", which perfectly explains why Germany has been the subject of multiple nuclear attacks over the past decade. Anyway, it isn't overly radical but is still the most leftwing one since 1983, but it's more what Ed Miliband wanted to write rather than straight from the Foot 'suicide note'. Even Polly Toynbee, Corbyn critic and SDP supporter, likes it. It's probably the most transformational and forward thinking one since Thatcher 1979 too (forward thinking as in looking at how to shape the long term future), or even Attlee '45.

My main worry is costings, though. Increasing corporation tax on multinationals will raise a lot of money, but compounded with Brexit might make a couple of companies leave. However, that's only the case if we also leave the single market, which Labour have expressed interest in staying in. The income tax increases will raise next to nothing in all probability if they are as moderate as McDonnell was trying to convince people they were. So yeah, a decent enough manifesto which is very comprehensive as well. I'll be surprised if the Tories don't release 70 pages of waffle as their's.

Other people's thoughts?


I like it a lot. Lots of SNP policies in there;) Agree with the policy on rail, energy, education fees, health, care, pensions, worker's rights, housing, welfare and democracy. Totally, totally disagree with renewing Trident. A bit soft on taxation as well. I think they are going to release their costing of this next week.
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Re: Re:

12 May 2017 03:41

ferryman wrote:
mcduff wrote:I'm expecting Scotland will break away within the decade. It'll be interesting to see how that affects Scottish politics in terms of representation and political parties in an independent Scotland.


It will happen in the next 2/3 years or not, literally for a generation this time. The GE results will give an indication. As an SNP activist and realist, I'm afraid to say it will not happen. That being the case, I really really just want to see Labour get their act together in England which will have a knock on effect in Scotland and Wales. We can all dream I guess:(


I'd say odds are rather higher for that than Dems in the US reforming.
aphronesis
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Re: Re:

12 May 2017 11:16

Semper Fidelis wrote:
King Boonen wrote:
ferryman wrote:
King Boonen wrote:Only semi-socialist?!?!? Lets seize the means of production comrades!!

The semi was a concession KB. If you had lived in Scotland during the Thatcher years it would be 1000%, but times have'd moved on so, yes, semi is just about right for most Scots.


I come from a Yorkshire mining family, easy to see where my political views were founded :)

Wow Yorkshire the home of the Major Tour.

Cycling's new greatest race in God's own County ;)
Vincenzo Nibali:
"I know how to ride a bike"

Reduce your carbon footprint, ride steel.
User avatar King Boonen
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12 May 2017 11:27

Not sure why anyone would worry about costings, renationalising things does very little to the budget deficit, especially considering subsidies already being paid. It's more about whether the state can effectively run the industries and provide benefit. I think mail has flown the coup and should be left but power and rail absolutely should come back under state control.
Vincenzo Nibali:
"I know how to ride a bike"

Reduce your carbon footprint, ride steel.
User avatar King Boonen
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Re: Re:

12 May 2017 12:04

King Boonen wrote:
Semper Fidelis wrote:
King Boonen wrote:
ferryman wrote:
King Boonen wrote:Only semi-socialist?!?!? Lets seize the means of production comrades!!

The semi was a concession KB. If you had lived in Scotland during the Thatcher years it would be 1000%, but times have'd moved on so, yes, semi is just about right for most Scots.


I come from a Yorkshire mining family, easy to see where my political views were founded :)

Wow Yorkshire the home of the Major Tour.

Cycling's new greatest race in God's own County ;)


I believe you're confused about "God's country", it's the one with big empty space.
aphronesis
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12 May 2017 12:08

County, not country.
Vincenzo Nibali:
"I know how to ride a bike"

Reduce your carbon footprint, ride steel.
User avatar King Boonen
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12 May 2017 12:13

Scanning quickly. I guess you can have that then.
aphronesis
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12 May 2017 12:21

It's a UK in-joke, either said with pride by people from Yorkshire or said with derision and snide by people from elsewhere :)
Vincenzo Nibali:
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Reduce your carbon footprint, ride steel.
User avatar King Boonen
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12 May 2017 12:24

I got that. Same as the States depending on one's level of cynicism.
aphronesis
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12 May 2017 13:02

I think the strategy by Corbyn is very good: offer a very clear alternative and a clear break from the new-Labour time. Gloves off, go for broke.
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