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Re: Re:

19 Mar 2018 19:39

macbindle wrote:
aphronesis wrote:I think there’s a temporal element. Per my post above, once the decision has been voted on the conclusion is often presented as unanimous.


Exactly.

I wasn't really commenting on the disenfranchised (such as the under 18s, overwhelmingly pro-EU, and likely to be affected by the result of the referendum more than the old). It's this Faragism of "the will of the people" that bugs me.


https://www.lrb.co.uk/v40/n06/linda-colley/can-history-help
aphronesis
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19 Mar 2018 21:11

Interesting article, and indeed Brexit was touted by some as revenge on the political elite essentially for the lack of change. And yet for other leavers Brexit is driven by a regressive vision of Britain. A Britain of cheery white people, milkmen, bus conductors, Spitfires thrumming over white cliffs, pea-soupers, giving the Hun a bloody good thrashing, cricket etc etc.

Brexit allows for a new global Britain, but for others it is a rejection of globalisation.

It's taking back control, but handing it to the Etonite, Bullingdon, porcine-rapist, old money.

If the power structures in place are old and long founded, they are in an ideal position to ensure that the spoils of Brexit land right in their lap.
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Re: Re:

20 Mar 2018 11:36

aphronesis wrote:
King Boonen wrote:I get that, but I'm talking about how it should be discussed, rather than how the media/sides portray it and attempt to project it onto a larger group. I know the counter argument is that is should include everyone if affects, but then where do you draw the line?


Then it ought to be left at “voters” no? If I’m reading you correctly. And not politicized differently in its discussion.


Yes, that'd be fine. Both sides play the game of using "people" to encompass a group that they define. It's very easy twist it either way.
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Re:

22 Mar 2018 23:58

macbindle wrote:Interesting article, and indeed Brexit was touted by some as revenge on the political elite essentially for the lack of change. And yet for other leavers Brexit is driven by a regressive vision of Britain. A Britain of cheery white people, milkmen, bus conductors, Spitfires thrumming over white cliffs, pea-soupers, giving the Hun a bloody good thrashing, cricket etc etc.

Brexit allows for a new global Britain, but for others it is a rejection of globalisation.

It's taking back control, but handing it to the Etonite, Bullingdon, porcine-rapist, old money.

If the power structures in place are old and long founded, they are in an ideal position to ensure that the spoils of Brexit land right in their lap.


What a bunch of drivel, people voted for many different reasons, but all you give us is false characatures

Anyway democracy is more than just the ballot box

It is also about a free press that is not controlled by politicians as Steptoe threatens if he came to power watch out for the connection to one of oswald mosley's offspring, it is also about an independent judiciary and people having various rights.
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Re: Re:

23 Mar 2018 04:57

del1962 wrote:
macbindle wrote:Interesting article, and indeed Brexit was touted by some as revenge on the political elite essentially for the lack of change. And yet for other leavers Brexit is driven by a regressive vision of Britain. A Britain of cheery white people, milkmen, bus conductors, Spitfires thrumming over white cliffs, pea-soupers, giving the Hun a bloody good thrashing, cricket etc etc.

Brexit allows for a new global Britain, but for others it is a rejection of globalisation.

It's taking back control, but handing it to the Etonite, Bullingdon, porcine-rapist, old money.

If the power structures in place are old and long founded, they are in an ideal position to ensure that the spoils of Brexit land right in their lap.


What a bunch of drivel, people voted for many different reasons, but all you give us is false characatures


Anyway democracy is more than just the ballot box

It is also about a free press that is not controlled by politicians as Steptoe threatens if he came to power watch out for the connection to one of oswald mosley's offspring, it is also about an independent judiciary and people having various rights.


You are right.

I forgot to mention the racists.

Interestingly, there is a very strong correlation between desire for death penalty and Leave voting. In itself a very good demonstration of why the decision to leave or remain in the EU should never have been put to the public vote.
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24 Mar 2018 04:03

Whoops.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/mar/23/we-have-been-hijacked-fishermen-feel-used-over-brexit?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

This just keeps happening.

I took the caricatures with the rippling connotations they may have intended.

But literalism dies hard.
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24 Mar 2018 05:03


I took the caricatures with the rippling connotations they may have intended.

But literalism dies hard.


I don't suppose del1962 bothered to read the article you posted and read my post in that context


This just keeps happening.


Voting for Brexit was an act of faith against evidence and reason, which is why potential Brexit voters could never seem to ennunciate a coherent rationale. Faith only gets you so far and this week it turns out that we got as far as fish.

Remainers merely had to point to the status quo.

Oh well, here's looking forward to...when is it?....2021?....when we finally get to live in the xenophobic exceptionalist Shangri La that the 'people' demand.

In other news, nobody seems to be pointing out the hypocrisy of Boris Johnson, hailing the "unqualified solidarity" offered to the UK by the EU security council, in the current conflagration with Russia.
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Re: Re:

26 Mar 2018 17:20

macbindle wrote:
del1962 wrote:
macbindle wrote:Interesting article, and indeed Brexit was touted by some as revenge on the political elite essentially for the lack of change. And yet for other leavers Brexit is driven by a regressive vision of Britain. A Britain of cheery white people, milkmen, bus conductors, Spitfires thrumming over white cliffs, pea-soupers, giving the Hun a bloody good thrashing, cricket etc etc.

Brexit allows for a new global Britain, but for others it is a rejection of globalisation.

It's taking back control, but handing it to the Etonite, Bullingdon, porcine-rapist, old money.

If the power structures in place are old and long founded, they are in an ideal position to ensure that the spoils of Brexit land right in their lap.


What a bunch of drivel, people voted for many different reasons, but all you give us is false characatures


Anyway democracy is more than just the ballot box

It is also about a free press that is not controlled by politicians as Steptoe threatens if he came to power watch out for the connection to one of oswald mosley's offspring, it is also about an independent judiciary and people having various rights.


You are right.

I forgot to mention the racists.

Interestingly, there is a very strong correlation between desire for death penalty and Leave voting. In itself a very good demonstration of why the decision to leave or remain in the EU should never have been put to the public vote.


You must mean the anti-EU leader of her majesty's opposition
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26 Mar 2018 17:36

Oh the anti-semitism thing?

Interesting that nobody objected 6 years ago when Corbyn made the remark. I guess with him being a backbencher at the time there wasnt any value in it for the Tories :rolleyes:
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27 Mar 2018 08:10

Ignore the party politics and it becomes very hard to call Corbyn an anti-Semite. However, far-left (is he really far left? He’s a socialist!) politics do open themselves up to anti-semites and anti-Semitic views. I haven’t followed everything but it does sound like labours new leadership should be doing more to tackle this.
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27 Mar 2018 08:50

The problem with the whole issue is that there is a concerted campaign from the Israeli lobby to label any criticism of Israel's actions (ie. ethnic cleansing, terrorism, murder etc) as anti-semitic.

The Labour party, being ideologically opposed to ethnic-cleansing and terrorism, is critical of Israeli politics and there have been some very prominent Jewish Labour politicians, such as Gerald Kaufman, who have been outspoken in their support for a fair treatment of the Palestinians. Such people have often been labelled 'self-hating Jews.

The Conservatives are very much aligned with the Israeli government, and quite naturally will not eschew an opportunity to smear Corbyn, now that he looks like a threat to their grip on power. You only have to ask the question of why this furore over Corbyn's mural comments didn't occur when he made them, six years ago, as a back benches.

Of course that isn't to say that there isn't anti-semitism within the Labour party, and anti-semites will quite naturally exploit any opportunity.
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27 Mar 2018 10:11

Image

Anyway its not about the Tories, the people complaing about Corbyn are not generally Tories but many are Labour MPs.
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27 Mar 2018 13:15

Party politics isn't limited to inter-party politics.
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Re:

27 Mar 2018 13:24

macbindle wrote:The problem with the whole issue is that there is a concerted campaign from the Israeli lobby to label any criticism of Israel's actions (ie. ethnic cleansing, terrorism, murder etc) as anti-semitic.

The Labour party, being ideologically opposed to ethnic-cleansing and terrorism, is critical of Israeli politics and there have been some very prominent Jewish Labour politicians, such as Gerald Kaufman, who have been outspoken in their support for a fair treatment of the Palestinians. Such people have often been labelled 'self-hating Jews.

The Conservatives are very much aligned with the Israeli government, and quite naturally will not eschew an opportunity to smear Corbyn, now that he looks like a threat to their grip on power. You only have to ask the question of why this furore over Corbyn's mural comments didn't occur when he made them, six years ago, as a back benches.

Of course that isn't to say that there isn't anti-semitism within the Labour party, and anti-semites will quite naturally exploit any opportunity.


It's not just Israel. The common stereotype of rich Jewish people also makes them an easy target for far-left political activists with strong socialist and communist opinions. It's important that large efforts are made to avoid this.

Yes, anti-Semites will exploit any opportunity. Any politician wishing to criticise Israel, hyper-wealthy people must ensure they make unambiguous arguments that cannot be used by those wishing to exploit them, or their message will be lost.

I am sure a large part of this is coming from those who oppose Corbyn and his politics, both outside and within the Labour party. They have seen he has the support of the base so they are trying to undermine that. If Jeremy's voting record and activism is looked at it is absurd to accuse him of being a racist, but he must make sure that any argument he makes cannot be used by those who are.


As for why it didn't come up 6 years ago, of course it's to do with him now being the leader. That's not an issue though, it's likely it has only really come to light to many people recently so there is no problem with them asking for an explanation. I see the artist has given statements saying it is not anti-semetic, but I've also seen other (I think earlier) statements that can certainly be interpreted as anti-semetic.

It's a very fine line at times, it's the commenters job to walk it.
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27 Mar 2018 13:49

I think the mural employs well-known anti-semitic tropes. The caricatures also closely reassemble the 'eternal Jew' from 1930s Nazi propaganda. The artist has said that some of the people are depictions of Jews.

It's a weird time in politics. Both main parties are split by both Brexit AND dislike of their leaders.

I don't think anti-semitism is a party issue. It's everywhere in varying degrees, but as burning issues go it is quite a way from top of the list.

I agree with you about Corbyn and racism, and it is worth making the point that being anti-Israeli occupation is to some extent anti-racist.
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Re:

28 Mar 2018 15:10

del1962 wrote:Image

Anyway its not about the Tories, the people complaing about Corbyn are not generally Tories but many are Labour MPs.


A few weeks ago the press was full of stuff about Corbyn being a Commie Spy. Then last week it was all about Corbyn being a supporter of Putin. This week he's an anti-semite.

What do you think it will be next week?

Do you really think all of this is being generated from within the Labour party?

No, me neither.
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28 Mar 2018 17:05

Its because they are true, do you think we should let up on Trump because of the things he does too?
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28 Mar 2018 19:22

Syntax not your strong point, I see.
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30 Mar 2018 15:31

...so the british, the eu and many other 'allies' expelling the diplomats did not seem to stop vlad from a stiff retaliation. and in the case of the uk particularly, though it was kinda de-emphasized in the west's media, he went above and beyond the parity tit-for-tat.

today i hear he gave the uk a month, which looks rather civil on the surface, to voluntarily equalize the diplomatic staff in the moscow british embassy to the russian one in london...apparently, there are many more brits serving/visa-issuing/spying/ sniffing in the moscow embassy than the rusian dip staff in london. vlad in essence implemented another expulsion of the british as a follow up to the london expulsion of 23 russians. by demanding the numeric parity is sending the brits a message that he wont stop if the brits attempt to change the parity....

why is he playing the tough ball ? was it what theresa expected ? what is she going to do next in response the vlad's defacto fu ?
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