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The morality and ethics of Anarchism

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12 Jun 2016 02:05

Not all links are meant seriously. Anyway, little "aphro" was communing with bears, etc. as a child. No electricity or running water either. Deep, deep stuff. Maybe the "wild" you "perceive" as such comes in part from the culture you reject while embracing bougeois affectations like painting and sculpting--those are some new hat for sure--and the new proletarian pasttime of web scouring. Nothing personal, just a thought.

Gotta sleep babe.
aphronesis
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Re:

12 Jun 2016 02:25

aphronesis wrote:Not all links are meant seriously. Anyway, little "aphro" was communing with bears, etc. as a child. No electricity or running water either. Deep, deep stuff. Maybe the "wild" you "perceive" as such comes in part from the culture you reject while embracing bougeois affectations like painting and sculpting--those are some new hat for sure--and the new proletarian pasttime of web scouring. Nothing personal, just a thought.

Gotta sleep babe.


Oh yeah, you send me those links 'cause it's just a jest, like my posting here - it's all a clownshow. I'm completely down with that, my every post demonstrates it.

Maybe you were too young too appreciate it. When was the last time you were truly alone for a significant period of time and confronted yourself?

The "wild" isn't some abstract perception for me. It's right outside my door.

Yeah, being creative is a new-fangled invention. What planet are you on? Apparently you didn't soak up much of the native culture. Strip it down and it's will, intention and imagination. Create yourself consciously.

Oh, I'm definitely guilty of web-scouring. I've been down more than my share of rabbit holes. At worst I can say that humans are really crazy at this point. At best I can say that humans have a great capacity for imagination.
Starstruck
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Re: Re:

12 Jun 2016 03:49

Starstruck wrote:
the delgados wrote:@Starstruck and others:
What say you about Petr Pavlensky (sp?)
After accidentally coming across his body of work (no pun intended), I'm embarrassed to say I've never heard of him.
Fascinating guy.


He'll just be written off as crazy by the majority I strongly suspect. Pranking or punking the structure is funny but futile. Unfortunately for him I suspect he'll be on the receiving end of some "performance art" in prison.


I just re-read part of this thread and realized I overlooked something you said about Pavlensky.
Not that it matters a great deal, but I don't think he is pranking nor punking for shits and giggles.
No way would he voluntarily subject himself to state-sponsored abuse for fun.
I've spent the better part of an hour reading about Pavlensky nailing his scrotum to Red Square, along with cutting off part of his ear and setting fire to the door of a historical house of horrors.
Also, I read a lengthy interview in which he explains why he does what he does.
He's definitely not trying to be funny.

p.s. I'd like to check out the "Alone" recommendation. Is it on netflix? I only ask because I can only access it through others.
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Re: Re:

12 Jun 2016 15:20

Starstruck wrote:
aphronesis wrote:Not all links are meant seriously. Anyway, little "aphro" was communing with bears, etc. as a child. No electricity or running water either. Deep, deep stuff. Maybe the "wild" you "perceive" as such comes in part from the culture you reject while embracing bougeois affectations like painting and sculpting--those are some new hat for sure--and the new proletarian pasttime of web scouring. Nothing personal, just a thought.

Gotta sleep babe.


Oh yeah, you send me those links 'cause it's just a jest, like my posting here - it's all a clownshow. I'm completely down with that, my every post demonstrates it.

Maybe you were too young too appreciate it. When was the last time you were truly alone for a significant period of time and confronted yourself?

The "wild" isn't some abstract perception for me. It's right outside my door.

Yeah, being creative is a new-fangled invention. What planet are you on? Apparently you didn't soak up much of the native culture. Strip it down and it's will, intention and imagination. Create yourself consciously.

Oh, I'm definitely guilty of web-scouring. I've been down more than my share of rabbit holes. At worst I can say that humans are really crazy at this point. At best I can say that humans have a great capacity for imagination.


Skitsnack, what a jumble of positions. Quite the contrary, the "wild" is a socially determined remainder of the physical world that people engage with according to their limits. At least that's all you'll ever be capable of "perceiving". Or until you're reintegrated with the cosmos (unless of course you're already two-dimensional information thrilling as a hologram). If this is the ultimate macro and truth, why not give up your car(s), house, podcasts, nostalgia culture etc. and then get out in the wild? Should be no problem to get over "emotions" and the socially determined "voices" in your head when you're getting on with survival.

If we're going to go centuries old, let me know when you can do more than regurgitate a Kantian sublime. Why not go full Diogenes and wander indigent through the wild? Pick up a postcard or two on the frontier edge and give an update on your revelations as to how you and nature are bigger than geopolitics and subsumption by capital.

"Creativity" is a relatively modern conceit and even given a millenia or two back, it still needs to have social traction as opposed to even further back when it was integral to belief systems of the social apparatus. Much like your natives. Being generous, painting lost any cultural relevance with the early 1900s--maybe with belated pathological resurgence in the 40s and 50s--other than some public works projects in the "socialist" vein. Sculpture has survived longer owing to its "public" materiality, but not in any forms that "you" would recognize as "creative art", because they're mostly ugly, ramshackle, non-traditional and lack all of the "individual" hallmarks of "personal expression" that the reactionary petit bourgeois associate with art (and music) as a means of clawing out their tenuous and fictive subject positions inside the order that defines them. Creative taste, of course, also provides a means of "feeling" aloof (remote) from the coarse degradations that material culture manifests in one's neighbors. There are more contemporary modes of socially engaged "creativity" that open onto the possibility of communicating anarchist principles which might periodically disrupt that quaint and tasteful domesticity.
aphronesis
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12 Jun 2016 17:12

Wild has nothing to do with "socially determined", that's why it's wild. You should get out there by yourself and you'd realize how silly the rest of your screed is. I think we're going to find out (are finding out) where geopolitics and subsumption by capital fit in relation to life on this planet. A mere blip. https://www.amazon.ca/Learning-Die-Anthropocene-Reflections-Civilization/dp/0872866696/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1465747968&sr=1-1&keywords=learning+to+die+in+the+anthropocene

So creativity isn't integral to belief systems of the social apparatus now? We'll have to disagree. Why should I concern myself over your opinion of the cultural relevance of painting? Why should I concern myself if it has cultural relevance or not? It's a fun medium to explore, same with sculpture. I'd agree that abstract expressionism, conceptual and contemporary art is often ugly, the creative expression really happens in the subjective viewer interpreting what it means. The hyper intellectualized descriptions are usually more interesting than the object they're meant to represent. it's not all bad but mostly it's egoistic twattle (my opinion), and usually poorly crafted as to boot.

Apparently this sort of degradation of artistic expression is one of the hallmarks of civilization in collapse. Architecture has suffered the same fate as JH Kunstler likes to point out. His website is down though.

You should engage in whatever contemporary modes of socially engaged art you want to.
Last edited by Starstruck on 12 Jun 2016 17:29, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Re:

12 Jun 2016 17:16

the delgados wrote:
Starstruck wrote:
the delgados wrote:@Starstruck and others:
What say you about Petr Pavlensky (sp?)
After accidentally coming across his body of work (no pun intended), I'm embarrassed to say I've never heard of him.
Fascinating guy.


He'll just be written off as crazy by the majority I strongly suspect. Pranking or punking the structure is funny but futile. Unfortunately for him I suspect he'll be on the receiving end of some "performance art" in prison.


I just re-read part of this thread and realized I overlooked something you said about Pavlensky.
Not that it matters a great deal, but I don't think he is pranking nor punking for shits and giggles.
No way would he voluntarily subject himself to state-sponsored abuse for fun.
I've spent the better part of an hour reading about Pavlensky nailing his scrotum to Red Square, along with cutting off part of his ear and setting fire to the door of a historical house of horrors.
Also, I read a lengthy interview in which he explains why he does what he does.
He's definitely not trying to be funny.

p.s. I'd like to check out the "Alone" recommendation. Is it on netflix? I only ask because I can only access it through others.

That's how I see Pavlensky. I'm sure he's serious.

I don't know if it's on Netflix, just have this lap-top.
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Re:

12 Jun 2016 17:25

Starstruck wrote:Wild has nothing to do with "socially determined", that's why it's wild. You should get out there by yourself and you'd realize how silly the rest of your screed is. I think we're going to find out (are finding out) where geopolitics and subsumption by capital fit in relation to life on this planet. A mere blip. https://www.amazon.ca/Learning-Die-Anthropocene-Reflections-Civilization/dp/0872866696/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1465747968&sr=1-1&keywords=learning+to+die+in+the+anthropocene

So creativity isn't integral to belief systems of the social apparatus now? We'll have to disagree. Why should I concern myself over your opinion of the cultural relevance of painting? Why should I concern myself if it has cultural relevance or not? It's a fun medium to explore, same with sculpture. I'd agree that abstract expressionism, conceptual and contemporary art is often ugly, the creative expression really happens in the subjective viewer interpreting what it means. The hyper intellectualized descriptions are usually more interesting than the object they're meant to represent. it's not all bad but mostly it's egoistic twattle (my opinion), and usually poorly crafted as to boot.

You should engage in whatever contemporary modes of socially engaged art you want to.


I should have been clearer: creativity is always yoked to belief systems. Painting (and mimetic, in the weak sense) and the plastic arts are past their due date re. contemporary belief systems. The discourse is inseparable from the work. That holds for conceptualism, some of it is lame.

You are socially determined, therefore your experience of the wild is socially determined. Saying otherwise is what's silly. But keep shouting "me"; just don't let the cougars hear you.
aphronesis
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12 Jun 2016 17:33

"You are socially determined, therefore your experience of the wild is socially determined' that's the challenge, and the struggle - the whole point. To tune out of the socially determined and tune into the non socially determined.

If you want to be culturally relevant go ahead. You'll need to shout ME! ME! ME! very loud to be heard above the cacophony though. ;)
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14 Jun 2016 17:10

I'll say this more simply: nothing you will ever see, think, say or feel is not socially determined. Nothing. The most you can do (please) is to provide a more compelling account of the alienation your posts repeatedly embrace and deny. Skip the crude, naif repetition--it doesn't translate.
aphronesis
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Re:

14 Jun 2016 17:39

aphronesis wrote:I'll say this more simply: nothing you will ever see, think, say or feel is not socially determined. Nothing. The most you can do (please) is to provide a more compelling account of the alienation your posts repeatedly embrace and deny. Skip the crude, naif repetition--it doesn't translate.


Define nothing. :p

If there's no self overcoming why bother with suggesting Nietzsche? No transcendence? No overwhelming? Forget philosophy. I'm completely a slave to my culture. You're really upbeat. I was merely suggesting that getting out into (ok, there's no 1st nature but there's still places that count as a close 2nd) by oneself is a great direct challenge with lots of imposed self reflection as well as being overwhelmed by "forces" that require adaptation or death. An exploration of our smallness in the cosmos in a very visceral way. It's sadly lacking in our 3rd nature echo chamber.
I'm sorry you've only read about it, the direct experience is far better.

Art (painting, writing, sculpture, music) is another great way to self reflect and explore. Why somebody would limit themselves to "culturally relevant" when it's largely agreed that it's sick and dying and the need to break free is paramount is beyond me. Oh right, you succeeded in "the system" thus you, like every authority want validation.
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14 Jun 2016 17:52

The complete absence of something..

You have no idea what anyone else has read, experienced or done professionally, unless they've told you.


All the rest is just the anguished bleat of the sad and beautiful soul. Keep trying though. (Personally, it's probably best to practice shadowboxing alone: everything else smacks of paranoia, desperation and insecurity.)

Don't need to "get away from it all" to self-overcome. And even if one did, it clearly hasn't stuck.

Monomania: check it out.
aphronesis
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Re:

14 Jun 2016 18:08

aphronesis wrote:The complete absence of something..

You have no idea what anyone else has read, experienced or done professionally, unless they've told you.


All the rest is just the anguished bleat of the sad and beautiful soul. Keep trying though. (Personally, it's probably best to practice shadowboxing alone: everything else smacks of paranoia, desperation and insecurity.)

Don't need to "get away from it all" to self-overcome. And even if one did, it clearly hasn't stuck.

Monomania: check it out.


Is a negation the same as a definition? :p

I'm not really concerned about you. I'm talking about something bigger than you, you, you. Paranoia and insecurity should be familiar to you, send me some more crazy ****.

You essentially just told me there's no self overcoming. Make up your inconsistent mind.

Yeah, 19th century psychiatry is a great source of knowledge. Do you pull women by telling them you'll relieve their hysteria too?
Starstruck
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Re: Re:

14 Jun 2016 18:37

Overcoming the self doesn't mean exiting the social. You seem confused about this when in fact it's central to "your" thread topic.

Yes, nothing from the 19c is relevant now. On that score origins aside, it's frequently disenfranchised men suffering from hysteria these days. Even if that weren't the case I try to avoid weak people and their needs.

On that score: later.

(Of coures you're talking about something much bigger than me: yourself.)
aphronesis
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Re: Re:

14 Jun 2016 19:14

aphronesis wrote:Overcoming the self doesn't mean exiting the social. You seem confused about this when in fact it's central to "your" thread topic.

Yes, nothing from the 19c is relevant now. On that score origins aside, it's frequently disenfranchised men suffering from hysteria these days. Even if that weren't the case I try to avoid weak people and their needs.

On that score: later.

(Of coures you're talking about something much bigger than me: yourself.)


By exiting the social, by being alone to fend for oneself emphasizes the need for humans to be social. It boils down what's truly important. That you've never experienced that is exemplified by how you've misconstrued my intent. It's a cross cultural phenomenon as it gets essential.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cZQ5jbLlGf0&index=112&list=PLob1mZcVWOajh6bjAS-I13a4bxu8vBsZW

I know, you're an American elitist despite your pretenses of anarchism.

p.s. weak people don't survive some of the **** I've been through. There are plenty of suicide stats. that attest to that. Wrong again Plato.
https://www.google.ca/search?q=the+academy&espv=2&biw=1366&bih=667&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjiwunKoajNAhUL72MKHegMDekQ_AUIBygC#tbm=isch&q=the+academy+painting+raphael&imgrc=qfIZgDcjBBGCQM%3A
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17 Jun 2016 18:08

“What do you know about me, given that I believe in secrecy? … If I stick where I am, if I don’t travel around, like anyone else I make my inner journeys that I can only measure by my emotions, and express very obliquely and circuitously in what I write. … Arguments from one’s own privileged experience are bad and reactionary arguments."

http://www.generation-online.org/p/fpdeleuze4.htm
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17 Jun 2016 19:35

So here's the story: you can't find meaning, purpose and value in your own lives. We don't breath the same air, drink the same water or live on the same planet. There's no common morality that we can make up upon which ethics are built. Grounding oneself in nature is a bad idea and self exploration through creative acts must be mediated through the "culturally relevant", if you wonder what that means ask aphronesis. In fact don't act without asking him as he's the central figure to your story and will set you straight. You have no inherit intelligence, no free will (unconscious as it may be), emotions suck and instincts are to be avoided. In other words you must become intelligence (as determined outside yourself) without consciousness. Have fun and good luck with that.

I'm certain the aphro. will be happy to field any questions you may have.
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18 Jun 2016 12:27

So you started a facetious thread about anarchism, but really just wanted to talk about rural folk and camping? Maybe Instagram or Snapchat could help you connect.
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18 Jun 2016 18:19

As I've previously said I don't think anarchism can be relevant in our modern context outside an ideal, one that we're moving away from more rapidly than ever. As you said; the left is dead. So is any personal morality or group ethics. It's a cut throat world; the social contract is broken, the justice system is two tier, international law is invalid and might makes right. In hyper complexity correct behaviour is manipulation, exploitation, corruption and force.

https://www.amazon.com/Tribe-Homecoming-Belonging-Sebastian-Junger/dp/1455566381/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1466273161&sr=1-1&keywords=tribe+sebastian+junger

https://hbr.org/2011/04/ethical-breakdowns

http://www.newyorker.com/books/page-turner/vanishing-point
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Re:

18 Jun 2016 19:50

Starstruck wrote:As I've previously said I don't think anarchism can be relevant in our modern context outside an ideal, one that we're moving away from more rapidly than ever. As you said; the left is dead. So is any personal morality or group ethics. It's a cut throat world; the social contract is broken, the justice system is two tier, international law is invalid and might makes right. In hyper complexity correct behaviour is manipulation, exploitation, corruption and force.

https://www.amazon.com/Tribe-Homecoming-Belonging-Sebastian-Junger/dp/1455566381/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1466273161&sr=1-1&keywords=tribe+sebastian+junger

https://hbr.org/2011/04/ethical-breakdowns

http://www.newyorker.com/books/page-turner/vanishing-point


....to the bolded...if you were to apply the broad notion of anarchism ( and not one strictly tied to socio-economic parameters ) to the question you could not be more wrong....for evolution in general and for human evolution in particular anarchism is the key element that allows things to not only exist but also to move forward...remove anarchism from the process and we have no "human experiment"....and no "human experiment" and no morality and then no ethics ( well, likely some form of morality, but much less likely anything resembling ethics )...

....and camping or not camping has nothing to do with that...its a question of how our bio-computers work and how language as a system operates and what it does....

Cheers
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Re: Re:

18 Jun 2016 20:14

blutto wrote:
Starstruck wrote:As I've previously said I don't think anarchism can be relevant in our modern context outside an ideal, one that we're moving away from more rapidly than ever. As you said; the left is dead. So is any personal morality or group ethics. It's a cut throat world; the social contract is broken, the justice system is two tier, international law is invalid and might makes right. In hyper complexity correct behaviour is manipulation, exploitation, corruption and force.

https://www.amazon.com/Tribe-Homecoming-Belonging-Sebastian-Junger/dp/1455566381/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1466273161&sr=1-1&keywords=tribe+sebastian+junger

https://hbr.org/2011/04/ethical-breakdowns

http://www.newyorker.com/books/page-turner/vanishing-point


....to the bolded...if you were to apply the broad notion of anarchism ( and not one strictly tied to socio-economic parameters ) to the question you could not be more wrong....for evolution in general and for human evolution in particular anarchism is the key element that allows things to not only exist but also to move forward...remove anarchism from the process and we have no "human experiment"....and no "human experiment" and no morality and then no ethics ( well, likely some form of morality, but much less likely anything resembling ethics )...

....and camping or not camping has nothing to do with that...its a question of how our bio-computers work and how language as a system operates and what it does....

Cheers


You're assuming we're "evolving" in a moving forward way - better, the myth of progress, etc. How true is that?

bio-computers? the heart is like a pump not the pump is like a heart. does an abstract string of symbols represent the thing it's describing better than the thing itself? the money symbol rabbit hole that we've all fallen into whereby everything and everyone is commodified. the only value is in the description humans give it (through language) or the price in money symbols it represents. are you surprised we're going to go extinct?
http://www.declineoftheempire.com/2016/06/hope-for-coral-reefs.html

Throw the 1% out into the wilderness to fend for themselves and they may learn a thing or two about their place in the cosmos.
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