Log in:  

Register

ALI DEAD

Grab a short black and come join in the non-cycling discussion. Favourite books, movies, holiday destinations, other sports - chat about it all in the cafe.

Moderators: peloton, Irondan, Eshnar, Alpe d'Huez, Red Rick, Tonton, Pricey_sky

Re: ALI DEAD

06 Jun 2016 14:44

RIP.

I was just a kid 8 years old. My uncle who was a big boxing fan took me along for the Leon Spinks - Muhammad Ali fight. It was crazy for an 8 year old. According to the News Papers there were 70,000 people in the Dome that night.

I remember also that the fight caused a argument in my own house. My father did not care for Ali at all. The Draft dodger he was and all. Part of that opinion remains for me. Over the years and time I have softened my opinion a little. His stance was not all that noble. His initial reasons for not going to Vietnam was not because of anti-war he did not want to give up the prime of his career, and that changed into the anti-war stance. If people will read up on the fact that he did not have good favor with Dr. Martin Luther King due to his friendship with Malcom X.

AnyWho the fight was something I will always remember. Ali defeated Spinks. They went 15 rounds. After that fight Ali went on to Natchez Mississippi to film the show Freedom Road with Kris Kristofferson. Spinks was basically done after that fight.

The atmosphere in the dome even for a little kid at the age of 8 was electric, packed out was the floor where the boxers came in. I remember trying to strain in my seat to see Ali walk in. The music that was played for the entrance was Pete Fountain who is a New Orleans treasure. I doubt any boxer will have intro music like that ever again. At the dome and ring side for Spinks was Mr. T. who was Spinks body guard at the time seems a bit funny in retrospect.

His contributions to the popular culture of America are good and bad. He was one of the first athletes in America that his personal life was covered by news. In the end my opinion on him was more good than the bad. RIP
Last edited by Semper Fidelis on 06 Jun 2016 14:55, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar Semper Fidelis
Veteran
 
Posts: 7,469
Joined: 07 Dec 2010 15:53
Location: New Orleans

Re:

06 Jun 2016 14:49

The Hitch wrote:I think he was intelligent but some of those quotes posted aboe are pretty stupid and some are extreme narcisim of the type I would expect from someone like mourinho

Much of what he said back then was a created character. He got his motivation for the way he spoke about himself and others from a pro wrestler named "Gorgeous George" George Raymond Wagner. It was more of a show.
User avatar Semper Fidelis
Veteran
 
Posts: 7,469
Joined: 07 Dec 2010 15:53
Location: New Orleans

Re:

06 Jun 2016 14:53

Good post, Glenn, expresses many of my feelings.

The Hitch wrote:I think he was intelligent but some of those quotes posted aboe are pretty stupid and some are extreme narcisim of the type I would expect from someone like mourinho


It’s not well known that he was initially not classified for draft status because, as I understand it, he basically flunked the IQ test. Intelligence has many facets. He was brilliant in some ways, but obviously he was not what one would call an intellectual.

And he was one of sports’ first trash talkers. He demonstrated the marketing success possible in glorifying oneself while humiliating others, and that has spawned many disciples, e.g., Floyd Mayweather and yes, Donald Trump. I’m not a fan of Piers Morgan, but he’s right about comparing Ali to Trump in that particular respect (not in others, obviously; Ali was very generous with his money). Frazier never really forgave Ali for the taunts. Ali also could be very cruel in the ring to people who pushed back against him, e.g., Patterson, whom he toyed with for twelve rounds because he didn't like Floyd's criticism of his separatist views on race.

And what about his life out of the ring? Eventually, he provided great service as an envoy, an inspiration to the poor and sick, and so on, but that was after he retired. An SI writer who followed his career closely noted that Ali was actually on the wrong side in all the key issues in the 60s: he believed in separation of the races (though he later abandoned that position); he was, shall we say, not a fan of women’s rights; and his stance against the war was basically spoon-fed to him by Elijah, who probably wrote those flowery words that were quoted above. There may have been courage in risking his entire career—this was before being against the war was popular even with most students, let alone the general population--but let’s not forget that if had been drafted he still would not have been able to fight for a couple of years, and he risked being killed or suffering a career-ending injury.

Personally, I think the most inspirational aspect of Ali is that he was able to grow and change so much throughout his life. It’s sad that Parkinsonism prevented him from easily expressing this change. But I wouldn't regard him as "greater"--whatever that means--than Jackie Robinson, who had to endure far more hostility and prejudice and weathered it with respect; or ML King, who fought hate and prejudice with love and tolerance; or Mandela, who didn't just risk going to prison, but actually did, in conditions far worse than what Ali would have had to endure.
User avatar Merckx index
Senior Member
 
Posts: 3,013
Joined: 27 Jul 2010 19:19

Re: Re:

06 Jun 2016 15:12

Merckx index wrote:Good post, Glenn, expresses many of my feelings.

The Hitch wrote:I think he was intelligent but some of those quotes posted aboe are pretty stupid and some are extreme narcisim of the type I would expect from someone like mourinho


It’s not well known that he was initially not classified for draft status because, as I understand it, he basically flunked the IQ test. Intelligence has many facets. He was brilliant in some ways, but obviously he was not what one would call an intellectual.

And he was one of sports’ first trash talkers. He demonstrated the marketing success possible in glorifying oneself while humiliating others, and that has spawned many disciples, e.g., Floyd Mayweather and yes, Donald Trump. I’m not a fan of Piers Morgan, but he’s right about comparing Ali to Trump in that particular respect (not in others, obviously; Ali was very generous with his money). Frazier never really forgave Ali for the taunts. Ali also could be very cruel in the ring to people who pushed back against him, e.g., Patterson, whom he toyed with for twelve rounds because he didn't like Floyd's criticism of his separatist views on race.

And what about his life out of the ring? Eventually, he provided great service as an envoy, an inspiration to the poor and sick, and so on, but that was after he retired. An SI writer who followed his career closely noted that Ali was actually on the wrong side in all the key issues in the 60s: he believed in separation of the races (though he later abandoned that position); he was, shall we say, not a fan of women’s rights; and his stance against the war was basically spoon-fed to him by Elijah, who probably wrote those flowery words that were quoted above. There may have been courage in risking his entire career—this was before being against the war was popular even with most students, let alone the general population--but let’s not forget that if had been drafted he still would not have been able to fight for a couple of years, and he risked being killed or suffering a career-ending injury.

Personally, I think the most inspirational aspect of Ali is that he was able to grow and change so much throughout his life. It’s sad that Parkinsonism prevented him from easily expressing this change. But I wouldn't regard him as "greater"--whatever that means--than Jackie Robinson, who had to endure far more hostility and prejudice and weathered it with respect; or ML King, who fought hate and prejudice with love and tolerance; or Mandela, who didn't just risk going to prison, but actually did, in conditions far worse than what Ali would have had to endure.

Thanks.

You are correct about Frazier never forgave Ali for the things that were said before, during and after. During the Ali - Spinks part 2 Frazier lip sync the national anthem. Afterwards Frazier spoke to Spinks but did not bother to speak to Ali.
User avatar Semper Fidelis
Veteran
 
Posts: 7,469
Joined: 07 Dec 2010 15:53
Location: New Orleans

06 Jun 2016 15:48

Nearly all of Ali's opponents were fans and friends of Ali, certainly after they fought. Ken Norton and George Foreman are probably the best examples. Both being very close friends of Ali after they fought. Ken and Ali actually grew close after their first fight, with Muhammad supporting Norton in his fight with Foreman. George Chuvalo once noted that before his first fight with Ali he thought Ali was a bit of a loud mouthed ego, but when their first fight was announced he met the real Ali, who told him that if George played the straight guy, and let Ali do all the talking, it would help promote the fight and sell a lot of tickets, which it did. Chuvalo had great respect and admiration for Ali as a fighter, and a friend.

But there were other fighters that Ali wasn't friends with. Sonny Liston and Ernie Terrell come to mind, but neither were nice people and neither liked Ali either. But it is true that, the one fighter that Ali took the game too far with was Frazier. He didn't have a beef with Joe in the early days, but viewed Joe as having his title undeservedly. His poking at Joe about that before their first fight definitely motivated Joe, but unlike other opponents, Frazier is the one fighter that Ali didn't really let up on going into their second, and especially third fight. Foreman once said that Joe is the one person Ali really could have been nicer to. In the end, Fraizer took it personally, and became bitter about it, even after both were long retired, and Ali tried to reconcile with him.

My personal quibble with Ali is that he fought too long, too many times. He had excellent defensive skills, but could, and did get hit, and it took a severe toll. He easily could have retired after beating Foreman, and if not then, after the Thrilla in Manila. There was no reason to continue after that at all. As Irondan noted, Ali's skills declined, and some decisions were overly favorable late in his career. The stoppage to Lyle was probably premature (for the 70's boxing) and Ali was losing that fight. The fight with Young he looked terrible. The decision over Shavers was close with Ali scoring no damage to Ernie. Worst of all the third fight with Norton, which many pundits thought Ken clearly won, including myself, an Ali fan. The loss to Spinks was fairly ugly, and the fight with Holmes is the worst fight in boxing history and never should been allowed to happen.

But one doesn't measure someone's career by it's twilight, but it's prime. The prime Ali, between the first win over Liston - a huge upset in it's day - through the dominant win over Foley, was an Ali that was as good as any boxer ever. Even the Ali that returned and beat Quarry, Buenavena, and Ellis, and the one who lost to Frazier, was nearly prime Ali, and a savvy but skilled Ali won rematches with Frazier and Norton, and the astounding win over Foreman on nearly guile and ring smarts alone. That's the Ali the boxer we remember.
User avatar Alpe d'Huez
Administrator
 
Posts: 9,751
Joined: 11 Mar 2009 03:51
Location: New England

Re:

06 Jun 2016 19:47

Netserk wrote:Nice to see that people are more respectful here, than Amsterhammer was in the Thatcher thread.


You're still so butthurt years later that you felt compelled to produce this entirely uncalled for, gratuitous swipe at me? Get a life.
#FeeltheBern
User avatar Amsterhammer
Senior Member
 
Posts: 4,912
Joined: 22 Jun 2009 08:29
Location: Amsterdam

06 Jun 2016 19:59

Happy to entirely agree with Alpe, whose memory is far better than mine.
#FeeltheBern
User avatar Amsterhammer
Senior Member
 
Posts: 4,912
Joined: 22 Jun 2009 08:29
Location: Amsterdam

Re: ALI DEAD

13 Jun 2016 11:31

One thing that of course was hardly mentioned all tributes to Muhammad Ali: his Islamic Faith!

Ali has always been open about his Islamness. He never said "but you know I'm just a moderate" or "just a casual Muslim". He said he was Muslim, period. He did not cheat! Moderate is another word for dishonest after all. Only in his later year did he start mellowing down unfortunately. I don't think it's in his honour to carry the Olympic Flames at what proved to be the worst ever Olympics.

Ali converted because of his friendship with Malcolm X and joined Nation of Islam. How politically uncorrect can that be!

Image

“In my name and the name of all Muslims in America, I declare support for the Palestinian struggle to liberate their homeland and oust the Zionist invaders.”
read more: http://www.haaretz.com/jewish/news/1.723042

“the United States is the stronghold of Zionism and imperialism.”
read more: http://www.haaretz.com/jewish/news/1.723042

Asked for his thoughts on the Iranian hostage crisis by India Today, Ali denounced the Iranians as "fanatics," but still managed to blame the Jews.
"Religion ain’t bad; it’s people who are bad," he said. "You know the entire power structure is Zionist. They control America; they control the world. They are really against the Islam religion. So whenever a Muslim does something wrong, they blame the religion.”
read more: http://www.haaretz.com/jewish/news/1.723042

"My mother was a Baptist. She believed Jesus was the son of God, and I don’t believe that. But even though my mother had a religion different from me, I believe that, on Judgment Day, my mother will be in heaven.
"There are Jewish people who lead good lives. When they die, I believe they’re going to heaven. It doesn’t matter what religion you are, if you’re a good person you’ll receive God’s blessing. Muslims, Christians and Jews all serve the same God. We just serve him in different ways.
"Anyone who believes in One God should also believe that all people are part of one family. God created us all. And all people have to work to get along."
read more: http://www.haaretz.com/jewish/news/1.723042

That is Muhammad Ali!

Also the refusal to get draft to the Vietnam War means a lot to me. Conscription here on the continent started with the French Revolution. A lot of Catholic conscripts refused to join the armies: in the Vendée, in Belgium, in the US (Irish & Belgian migrants to the North, Cajuns in the South), in Quebec. Ali just followed a long tradition of desertion.

May Allah - Glory & Praise be upon Him - bless Muhammad Ali !!
Echoes
Senior Member
 
Posts: 2,657
Joined: 08 Oct 2009 17:57

Re: ALI DEAD

14 Jun 2016 03:43

Echoes wrote:One thing that of course was hardly mentioned all tributes to Muhammad Ali: his Islamic Faith!

Ali has always been open about his Islamness. He never said "but you know I'm just a moderate" or "just a casual Muslim". He said he was Muslim, period. He did not cheat! Moderate is another word for dishonest after all. Only in his later year did he start mellowing down unfortunately. I don't think it's in his honour to carry the Olympic Flames at what proved to be the worst ever Olympics.

Ali converted because of his friendship with Malcolm X and joined Nation of Islam. How politically uncorrect can that be!

Image

“In my name and the name of all Muslims in America, I declare support for the Palestinian struggle to liberate their homeland and oust the Zionist invaders.”
read more: http://www.haaretz.com/jewish/news/1.723042

“the United States is the stronghold of Zionism and imperialism.”
read more: http://www.haaretz.com/jewish/news/1.723042

Asked for his thoughts on the Iranian hostage crisis by India Today, Ali denounced the Iranians as "fanatics," but still managed to blame the Jews.
"Religion ain’t bad; it’s people who are bad," he said. "You know the entire power structure is Zionist. They control America; they control the world. They are really against the Islam religion. So whenever a Muslim does something wrong, they blame the religion.”
read more: http://www.haaretz.com/jewish/news/1.723042

"My mother was a Baptist. She believed Jesus was the son of God, and I don’t believe that. But even though my mother had a religion different from me, I believe that, on Judgment Day, my mother will be in heaven.
"There are Jewish people who lead good lives. When they die, I believe they’re going to heaven. It doesn’t matter what religion you are, if you’re a good person you’ll receive God’s blessing. Muslims, Christians and Jews all serve the same God. We just serve him in different ways.
"Anyone who believes in One God should also believe that all people are part of one family. God created us all. And all people have to work to get along."
read more: http://www.haaretz.com/jewish/news/1.723042

That is Muhammad Ali!

Also the refusal to get draft to the Vietnam War means a lot to me. Conscription here on the continent started with the French Revolution. A lot of Catholic conscripts refused to join the armies: in the Vendée, in Belgium, in the US (Irish & Belgian migrants to the North, Cajuns in the South), in Quebec. Ali just followed a long tradition of desertion.

May Allah - Glory & Praise be upon Him - bless Muhammad Ali !!

"politically correct"? was that even a term back in the 60's when this was all going on??

way to take it all out of context and ignoring the times in which it all occurred :rolleyes:

Guess you didn't see the Parkinson interviews that were put together as a doco/remembrance... was all in there - a twenty-something re-spouting the words of Elijah Muhammad from a time when the civil rights fight was in full swing...
Amazing what young people do in the face of oppression - imagine being a world champion and you're not allowed to eat in one of your own neighbourhood restaurants because of the colour of your skin. Might give you a bit of a chip on your shoulder from the those privileged whites? Or give you a good reason to join a group trying to fight such a thing?
What would you have done as a 22y.o?
User avatar Archibald
Senior Member
 
Posts: 2,626
Joined: 15 Jun 2009 17:03

Re: ALI DEAD

14 Jun 2016 11:17

What is the problem?

I was supposed to pay tribute to the man. Where's negativity in my post?
Echoes
Senior Member
 
Posts: 2,657
Joined: 08 Oct 2009 17:57

Re: ALI DEAD

15 Jun 2016 06:54

Echoes wrote:What is the problem?

I was supposed to pay tribute to the man. Where's negativity in my post?

took it as though you were highlighting his being politically incorrect through his conversion to islam and anti-semetic statements - my mistake - was a little all over the place after reading the US Politics thread... :o
User avatar Archibald
Senior Member
 
Posts: 2,626
Joined: 15 Jun 2009 17:03

Re: ALI DEAD

15 Jun 2016 07:12

It's exactly what I did, but for the anti-Semitic aspects of his comments which is your opinion.

But from my viewpoint, it's all positive. Ali also recently schooled Trump on Islam. He fought till his last breath.
Echoes
Senior Member
 
Posts: 2,657
Joined: 08 Oct 2009 17:57

16 Jun 2016 00:12

I read somewhere the last 3/4 fights of his career were the prime catalysts for the early appearance of his Parkinson disease.
User avatar lenric
Member
 
Posts: 739
Joined: 19 May 2014 21:52

Previous

Return to General

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Radboud University and 6 guests

Back to top