Log in:  

Register

The all purpose global 'Terror' attack topic.

Grab a short black and come join in the non-cycling discussion. Favourite books, movies, holiday destinations, other sports - chat about it all in the cafe.

Moderators: peloton, Irondan, Eshnar, Alpe d'Huez, Red Rick, Tonton, Pricey_sky

Re:

20 Jul 2016 15:50

Starstruck wrote:The whole thread was a boo hoo, we the wonderful are being attacked. Who, Where, When, There, Then, Now. OMG How? Forget why. Bad people over there --->.

We are NOT wonderful. No one is. However, it is almost completely certain that by all standards the West is superior in a lot of ways over the Islamic world. When it comes to economic freedom, when it comes to women's rights, when it comes to LGBT rights, when it comes to freedom of the press, when it comes to individual liberties, freedom of expression. Historically? The Islamic world was more or less way ahead of Europe until the sacking of Baghdad. But let's not forget brutal things like the Arab slave trade, a slave trade that was worse than the Atlantic slave trade.

Also, lets not forget that whenever there's a cartoonist in Denmark or whatever that creates a Muhammad drawing, you will get flag burnings all over the Islamic world. Death threats are also extremely common for apostates in the west, and for many peoply publicly outspoken about the doctrine of Islam.

Some culture is bad and should be condemned, and making excuses for flag burners, saying that Salman Rushdie "had it coming" and clearly blaming the victim and saying "why must you provoke" is the soft bigotry of low expectations. Some people will say that if there are flags being burned that was to be expected, that is a soft bigotry that means these people expect less of Muslims. That in itself is a form of bigotry. I try to hold everyone to the same high standard, and to react with flag burnings, book burnings and death threats is the very opposite of a civil way to respond to a non-violent act like a Muhammad caricature.

Back ton the topic of "why", I'm not saying it's one-dimensional. Islam is one part, but the role of the West is clear in aggrevating hostile sentiments in the Islamic world: The French and its influence and questionable legacy in Lebanon, Syria and North Africa; the British involvement in the dissolvement of the Ottoman Empire in the northern part of the Arabian peninsula; the US and the Brits staging the 1954 coup in Iran; the west propping up a weak Wahhabi regime in Saudi Arabia for decades upon decades; continual drone strikes and wars in the region by the West and maybe worst of all the creation of and friendship with the state of Israel and driving Palestines away from their homes. This "holy land" ****** is one of the most retarded things ever, and they have a right to be pissed over the very existence of Israel.

Oh, and BTW I have plenty of Muslim friends. Well, friends might be a stretch, but acquaintances for sure. Most of them aren't fully practicing Muslims though. And I have nothing against Muslims, I am against their beliefs.
User avatar jsem94
Senior Member
 
Posts: 2,597
Joined: 05 Oct 2010 18:24
Location: Örebro, Sweden

22 Jul 2016 18:10

And now it may be München
User avatar roundabout
Veteran
 
Posts: 12,777
Joined: 07 Jun 2010 11:43

22 Jul 2016 22:27

German media reporting shooters shouted racist insults demeaning Turks. Videos seem pretty clear on this. Looks like a neo-Nazi attack (5th anniversary of Brevik). Tragic.
choose life choose a car choose smack choose gullibility choose marx choose opium choose religion choose masses
-blackcat
Cannibal72
Member
 
Posts: 953
Joined: 06 Feb 2016 20:49

Re:

23 Jul 2016 00:28

18 year old German born of Iranian descent seem to be the new reports from Munich police. Or at least German-Iranian, dual citizenship?

10 dead.
16 injured, 3 of which heavily injured. Maybe more injured, 21?
Last edited by Sciocco on 23 Jul 2016 00:46, edited 1 time in total.
"Winning is about heart, not just legs. It's got to be in the right place." -Lance Armstrong
User avatar Sciocco
Member
 
Posts: 848
Joined: 24 Jan 2012 05:39
Location: Philly, USA

Re: The all purpose global 'Terror' attack topic.

23 Jul 2016 00:42

Excessive police reaction in hindsight.
User avatar SeriousSam
Senior Member
 
Posts: 4,728
Joined: 31 Aug 2012 00:06
Location: Now here

23 Jul 2016 17:59

Munich guy might have been inspired by Breivik by the looks of it. Was a madman.

80+ dead in Kabul in a new big terrorist attack though, IS takes responsibility as two suicide bombers hit a protest of thousands of people, mainly of the Hazara Shia minority.
User avatar jsem94
Senior Member
 
Posts: 2,597
Joined: 05 Oct 2010 18:24
Location: Örebro, Sweden

23 Jul 2016 18:43

This thread is starting to fill up, fast.... :(
User avatar Irondan
Veteran
 
Posts: 5,568
Joined: 30 Apr 2014 02:13
Location: Seattle, WA

25 Jul 2016 08:22

'Deliberate blast in Ansbach' apparently. 1 dead and 12 injured. Presumed to be a Syrian suicide bomber who was a rejected asylum seeker, but details unclear
Brullnux
Senior Member
 
Posts: 3,531
Joined: 31 Mar 2015 14:41

Re:

25 Jul 2016 08:41

jsem94 wrote:Munich guy might have been inspired by Breivik by the looks of it. Was a madman..



I think the point is that violent acts are inspired by other violent acts, regardless of the political/religious persuasions of the perpetrators.
Last edited by kwikki on 25 Jul 2016 09:05, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar kwikki
Member
 
Posts: 1,014
Joined: 03 Apr 2016 15:47

25 Jul 2016 09:03

That one dead is himself, actually; no innocents have died yet and hopefully none will. He may have been an islamist.
Brullnux
Senior Member
 
Posts: 3,531
Joined: 31 Mar 2015 14:41

Re:

25 Jul 2016 14:30

Irondan wrote:This thread is starting to fill up, fast.... :(

...and its mostly a religious thread...
jmdirt
Member
 
Posts: 1,679
Joined: 06 Dec 2013 17:33

Re: Re:

25 Jul 2016 22:51

jmdirt wrote:
Irondan wrote:This thread is starting to fill up, fast.... :(

...and its mostly a religious thread...


No ist mostly a monocausual nonsense thread.
But you may never forget: hate is the imperative! Explanations are worthless if you may have hate.
Explanations are way to complex anyway, we will all remain more calm if we just attribute everything to "religion" and affirm the view of the it - and the world - the terrorist give us.
User avatar Rechtschreibfehler
Member
 
Posts: 1,119
Joined: 19 Mar 2009 17:44
Location: Stehlendorf

Re: Re:

25 Jul 2016 22:57

jsem94 wrote:
Starstruck wrote:The whole thread was a boo hoo, we the wonderful are being attacked. Who, Where, When, There, Then, Now. OMG How? Forget why. Bad people over there --->.

We are NOT wonderful. No one is. However, it is almost completely certain that by all standards the West is superior in a lot of ways over the Islamic world. When it comes to economic freedom, when it comes to women's rights, when it comes to LGBT rights, when it comes to freedom of the press, when it comes to individual liberties, freedom of expression. Historically? The Islamic world was more or less way ahead of Europe until the sacking of Baghdad. But let's not forget brutal things like the Arab slave trade, a slave trade that was worse than the Atlantic slave trade.

Also, lets not forget that whenever there's a cartoonist in Denmark or whatever that creates a Muhammad drawing, you will get flag burnings all over the Islamic world. Death threats are also extremely common for apostates in the west, and for many peoply publicly outspoken about the doctrine of Islam.

Some culture is bad and should be condemned, and making excuses for flag burners, saying that Salman Rushdie "had it coming" and clearly blaming the victim and saying "why must you provoke" is the soft bigotry of low expectations. Some people will say that if there are flags being burned that was to be expected, that is a soft bigotry that means these people expect less of Muslims. That in itself is a form of bigotry. I try to hold everyone to the same high standard, and to react with flag burnings, book burnings and death threats is the very opposite of a civil way to respond to a non-violent act like a Muhammad caricature.

Back ton the topic of "why", I'm not saying it's one-dimensional. Islam is one part, but the role of the West is clear in aggrevating hostile sentiments in the Islamic world: The French and its influence and questionable legacy in Lebanon, Syria and North Africa; the British involvement in the dissolvement of the Ottoman Empire in the northern part of the Arabian peninsula; the US and the Brits staging the 1954 coup in Iran; the west propping up a weak Wahhabi regime in Saudi Arabia for decades upon decades; continual drone strikes and wars in the region by the West and maybe worst of all the creation of and friendship with the state of Israel and driving Palestines away from their homes. This "holy land" ****** is one of the most retarded things ever, and they have a right to be pissed over the very existence of Israel.

Oh, and BTW I have plenty of Muslim friends. Well, friends might be a stretch, but acquaintances for sure. Most of them aren't fully practicing Muslims though. And I have nothing against Muslims, I am against their beliefs.


i appreciated this, btw. Along with your following contribution.
Starstruck
Member
 
Posts: 1,286
Joined: 16 Apr 2016 22:13

27 Jul 2016 08:40

Not sure what to make of the attack on the Roman Catholic Church in France. Hostage situation and the 86 year old priest was murdered. The guy was a known IS recruit from before.

And not certain this fits in here, but how **** up do you have to be to kill 19 and injure 45 disabled people in Japan. Carefully planned and done at night when they were sleeping. Absolutely awful.
User avatar jsem94
Senior Member
 
Posts: 2,597
Joined: 05 Oct 2010 18:24
Location: Örebro, Sweden

27 Jul 2016 08:48

Violence creates violence, just by its occurrence. Sometimes it's a causal link (Iraq invasion=brutalise, humiliate and destabilise a nation/Abu Graib/dead children from US missiles=anger at injustice=creation of IS=acts of extreme violence ), sometimes it's just because violence incites others to violent acts.
User avatar kwikki
Member
 
Posts: 1,014
Joined: 03 Apr 2016 15:47

Re: The all purpose global 'Terror' attack topic.

29 Jul 2016 00:52

when Western progressives argue that the current wave of salafist terrorism in the West is a result of imperialist aggression in the Middle East, they make a fallacious essentialist argument. In fact they make the mistake two ways: they essentialise the Middle East as some kind of Arab/Muslim monoculture and they essentialise terrorists as generic Muslims. Let me be clear about this. It isn’t the generic Arab/Muslim who is responsible for modern acts of terrorism; it’s a multi-racial network of specifically Sunni supremacists who are responsible, both for attacks in the West and attacks in Muslim countries.

If terrorism in the West is the result of Muslim anger over past colonialist aggression, then why don’t the terrorist groups include non-salafists amongst its adherents? And if the salafists are doing it in response to Western colonialism, why are their main targets other Muslims, especially Shia?


The veil falls away when you study the history of Islam, and what you find is an Islam that is every bit as expansionist and imperialist as European Christianity. The progressive narrative is defined in terms of the opposition to ‘Western’ imperialism and so it tends to focus only on recent history. Very few progressives take the longer view.


most progressives only think of Christian-Muslim relations in terms of Christian aggression against Islam, beginning with the Crusades. Most of the focus is on modern history, particularly the French and English colonial period. According to this narrative the West bears collective responsibility for the problems of the Middle East. In this narrative Muslims are only ever historical victims, never perpetrators. The entire history of Islamic imperialism is conveniently ignored.


http://integralworld.net/harris37.html
User avatar Merckx index
Senior Member
 
Posts: 3,013
Joined: 27 Jul 2010 19:19

29 Jul 2016 02:00

So an utterly essentialist perspective tells us why we need diffrent essentialist views to rightfully be racist. Wonderful.

"Islam is not a race, it is not a culture. Like Buddhism and Christianity, Islam is a universalist, conversionist religion." I am not going to do the logic for you. Pathetic nonsense. It's not even about the specific points. If this is the standard of argument, we need to applaude the terrorist and their idiotic counterparts for actually succeding to poison the world, to simply apply their very own hardcore binary essentialistic ****** to everything.

Rethorically it's a good move though, simply assume what you are going to deny, to deny it.(In this case essentialistic views of religion, culture and worst race) "multi racial network" just go bloody **** yourself.

He is doing exactly what he's blaming, how the **** can you not see that? Oh wait sure. It's not about the logic, it's essentialism. If muslims do it it's evil, if "real humas" do it it's like an argument. (Or if anyone says's anything that's not against muslims in general, it's a essentialistic argument anyway, if you don't hate them you are a muslim more or less anyway) "But he said that he's progressive!" Is there a real term in English for a performative contradiction?

Oh an no: I don't think there are only reasons on one side, but the argument is lost anyway. Hate is imperative, fear is imperative, feeling superior is imperative, no responsibillity is imperative. Let's just kill those subhuman ****. What's this reason **** anyway.
User avatar Rechtschreibfehler
Member
 
Posts: 1,119
Joined: 19 Mar 2009 17:44
Location: Stehlendorf

Re: The all purpose global 'Terror' attack topic.

29 Jul 2016 04:52

Merckx index wrote:
when Western progressives argue that the current wave of salafist terrorism in the West is a result of imperialist aggression in the Middle East, they make a fallacious essentialist argument. In fact they make the mistake two ways: they essentialise the Middle East as some kind of Arab/Muslim monoculture and they essentialise terrorists as generic Muslims. Let me be clear about this. It isn’t the generic Arab/Muslim who is responsible for modern acts of terrorism; it’s a multi-racial network of specifically Sunni supremacists who are responsible, both for attacks in the West and attacks in Muslim countries.

If terrorism in the West is the result of Muslim anger over past colonialist aggression, then why don’t the terrorist groups include non-salafists amongst its adherents? And if the salafists are doing it in response to Western colonialism, why are their main targets other Muslims, especially Shia?


The veil falls away when you study the history of Islam, and what you find is an Islam that is every bit as expansionist and imperialist as European Christianity. The progressive narrative is defined in terms of the opposition to ‘Western’ imperialism and so it tends to focus only on recent history. Very few progressives take the longer view.


most progressives only think of Christian-Muslim relations in terms of Christian aggression against Islam, beginning with the Crusades. Most of the focus is on modern history, particularly the French and English colonial period. According to this narrative the West bears collective responsibility for the problems of the Middle East. In this narrative Muslims are only ever historical victims, never perpetrators. The entire history of Islamic imperialism is conveniently ignored.


http://integralworld.net/harris37.html


Oh, ok. How about if capitalist "effects and disjunctures" get factored in?
aphronesis
Senior Member
 
Posts: 4,336
Joined: 30 Jul 2011 16:47
Location: Bed-Stuy

Re:

29 Jul 2016 11:47

Rechtschreibfehler wrote:So an utterly essentialist perspective tells us why we need diffrent essentialist views to rightfully be racist. Wonderful.

"Islam is not a race, it is not a culture. Like Buddhism and Christianity, Islam is a universalist, conversionist religion." I am not going to do the logic for you. Pathetic nonsense. It's not even about the specific points. If this is the standard of argument, we need to applaude the terrorist and their idiotic counterparts for actually succeding to poison the world, to simply apply their very own hardcore binary essentialistic ****** to everything.

Rethorically it's a good move though, simply assume what you are going to deny, to deny it.(In this case essentialistic views of religion, culture and worst race) "multi racial network" just go bloody **** yourself.

He is doing exactly what he's blaming, how the **** can you not see that? Oh wait sure. It's not about the logic, it's essentialism. If muslims do it it's evil, if "real humas" do it it's like an argument. (Or if anyone says's anything that's not against muslims in general, it's a essentialistic argument anyway, if you don't hate them you are a muslim more or less anyway) "But he said that he's progressive!" Is there a real term in English for a performative contradiction?

Oh an no: I don't think there are only reasons on one side, but the argument is lost anyway. Hate is imperative, fear is imperative, feeling superior is imperative, no responsibillity is imperative. Let's just kill those subhuman ****. What's this reason **** anyway.


i have no idea what any of the above is supposed to mean, but it does remind me a bit of the nonesence owen jones was rambling about before he disgraced himself by walking off set on Sky news last month.
User avatar The Hitch
Veteran
 
Posts: 28,427
Joined: 14 Jun 2010 10:58
Location: London.

Re:

29 Jul 2016 12:54

Rechtschreibfehler wrote:So an utterly essentialist perspective tells us why we need diffrent essentialist views to rightfully be racist. Wonderful.

"Islam is not a race, it is not a culture. Like Buddhism and Christianity, Islam is a universalist, conversionist religion." I am not going to do the logic for you. Pathetic nonsense. It's not even about the specific points. If this is the standard of argument, we need to applaude the terrorist and their idiotic counterparts for actually succeding to poison the world, to simply apply their very own hardcore binary essentialistic ****** to everything.

Rethorically it's a good move though, simply assume what you are going to deny, to deny it.(In this case essentialistic views of religion, culture and worst race) "multi racial network" just go bloody **** yourself.

He is doing exactly what he's blaming, how the **** can you not see that? Oh wait sure. It's not about the logic, it's essentialism. If muslims do it it's evil, if "real humas" do it it's like an argument. (Or if anyone says's anything that's not against muslims in general, it's a essentialistic argument anyway, if you don't hate them you are a muslim more or less anyway) "But he said that he's progressive!" Is there a real term in English for a performative contradiction?

Oh an no: I don't think there are only reasons on one side, but the argument is lost anyway. Hate is imperative, fear is imperative, feeling superior is imperative, no responsibillity is imperative. Let's just kill those subhuman ****. What's this reason **** anyway.

Rech, a while back in the refugee thread you called 'racist' on everything that everyone typed. That can't be your only rebuttal, can it? I also remember leaving that thread feeling that the only one with racist ideas was the one calling racist.
jmdirt
Member
 
Posts: 1,679
Joined: 06 Dec 2013 17:33

PreviousNext

Return to General

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests

Back to top