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Robert Millar becomes Phillipa York

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Moderators: Irondan, Eshnar, Red Rick, Valv.Piti, Pricey_sky, Tonton, King Boonen

Re:

14 Sep 2017 14:34

jsem94 wrote:Listened to the podcast. I had completely missed this, wasn't really aware of the backstory either. Quite interesting hearing her story on the CN podcast. It's encouraging that I haven't seen much abuse after this revelation and I hope we can take further steps for a more inclusive sport. Like was said in the podcast, when will we see the first openly gay rider in the peloton?

There's been a few abusive, tasteless comments that we're deleted from the comments section. I think we've removed a couple here too which makes it look a little rosier than it actually has been.
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User avatar Irondan
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Re:

14 Sep 2017 18:30

kingjr wrote:Why do you care to know who is gay in the current peloton?

I don't.

But that no one is open about it, just like in professional football, might be indicative of perceived backlash and nasty comments from other riders and fans alike, maybe not from other riders in the open, but maybe lowkey. Given what Moscon did this year, would it be such a stretch to assume that maybe some riders wouldn't be very keen on sharing a room with a homosexual rider for instance? The world of pro sports is still a very macho environment and backwards in some aspects.

I just hope that fewer people care so that riders can actually be openly gay in the peloton without them feeling that they need to hide their identity from others.
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14 Sep 2017 19:07

Or maybe they simply can't be bothered with the attention they would get from fans and media.
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Re: Re:

19 Sep 2017 23:25

Irondan wrote:
jsem94 wrote:Listened to the podcast. I had completely missed this, wasn't really aware of the backstory either. Quite interesting hearing her story on the CN podcast. It's encouraging that I haven't seen much abuse after this revelation and I hope we can take further steps for a more inclusive sport. Like was said in the podcast, when will we see the first openly gay rider in the peloton?

There's been a few abusive, tasteless comments that we're deleted from the comments section. I think we've removed a couple here too which makes it look a little rosier than it actually has been.


I am a bit confused as to why my posts have been removed.
They were not abusive or tasteless. They were, in fact, pretty diplomatic in tone.
Are different opinions not allowed on this forum?
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Re: Re:

20 Sep 2017 00:00

Ruby United wrote:
Irondan wrote:
jsem94 wrote:Listened to the podcast. I had completely missed this, wasn't really aware of the backstory either. Quite interesting hearing her story on the CN podcast. It's encouraging that I haven't seen much abuse after this revelation and I hope we can take further steps for a more inclusive sport. Like was said in the podcast, when will we see the first openly gay rider in the peloton?

There's been a few abusive, tasteless comments that we're deleted from the comments section. I think we've removed a couple here too which makes it look a little rosier than it actually has been.


I am a bit confused as to why my posts have been removed.
They were not abusive or tasteless. They were, in fact, pretty diplomatic in tone.
Are different opinions not allowed on this forum?


I was thinking the same about my posts. I was and continue to be very supportive and happy that Phillipa can be herself without recrimination.
That said, I don't care enough to send pm's to the mods. The podcast featuring Phillipa was awesome.
If anyone says they think the situation is entirely normal, they would be lying.
But the fact very few people in today's day and age raise a stink is very reasuring.
Understanding and support of fellow human beings is paramount.
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Re: Re:

20 Sep 2017 02:17

Ruby United wrote:
Irondan wrote:
jsem94 wrote:Listened to the podcast. I had completely missed this, wasn't really aware of the backstory either. Quite interesting hearing her story on the CN podcast. It's encouraging that I haven't seen much abuse after this revelation and I hope we can take further steps for a more inclusive sport. Like was said in the podcast, when will we see the first openly gay rider in the peloton?

There's been a few abusive, tasteless comments that we're deleted from the comments section. I think we've removed a couple here too which makes it look a little rosier than it actually has been.


I am a bit confused as to why my posts have been removed.
They were not abusive or tasteless. They were, in fact, pretty diplomatic in tone.
Are different opinions not allowed on this forum?

Maybe your post count is not high enough? Break that 20k or 30 k mark and maybe it would be ok.

Seriously though - it is hard for anyone to be critical and them not delete or censor it.

For me anyone can do whatever they want. Live free or die as they say in a state in the 50.
Just not thing to chit chat about someones life preference. DO what ya like and all.
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03 Nov 2017 02:16

A link to an article with a couple of videos (do scroll down to the 2nd one when she meets her mentor Billy Bilsland). Was shown on Scottish telly last night and I think it's her first interview since her public announcement:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/scotland/41848100
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04 Nov 2017 17:21

First one is in my local cycling cafe, chatted to the owner about it last time I was in.
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04 Nov 2017 21:05

Reading Philippa's description of her unhappiness as a man, a deep feeling that something was not right, something occurred to me that I had never thought of before. The feeling of being male or female is driven, of course, by hormones and other physiological substances. I wonder if it would be possible through hormonal or related therapy to change that feeling of being a woman to that of being a man. If it were, it would seem to be a faster, simpler and cheaper way to bring the body into line with mind and emotions.

I know there's a saying by transgenders, it's not your hormones, it's your identity. Well, I'm sorry, but (bio)chemistry is destiny. If you're a physical male who identifies with being a woman, there have to be differences in your brain relative to the brains of men who identify with being men. Even if the identity as a woman didn't start at birth, even if it resulted from environmental/cultural factors, that's still the case.

So why not pursue this course of action? One answer might be that while the procedure for turning a man's body into a woman's (or vice-versa) is fairly well-established, there probably isn't a known procedure for changing a woman's identity to that of a man. Since physiological males like Millar feel like woman, it presumably isn't just a matter of enough male hormones, at least not in all cases. There may be more subtle biochemical factors that aren't appreciated. It's well established that the brains of women are different in some ways from men, and while hormones normally underlie those differences, it may be that in people like Millar those differences have come about in other ways. So hormone treatment would not result in the changes.

But more, I think, gender identity is regarded as more sacred than the physical body. I'm guessing that most people feel their identify is "who they really are", so even if they were offered a way of changing it, they feel that would be wrong. This is why realizing genuine spirituality is so difficult and rare, because it does involve precisely casting aside what we regard as "I" as nothing more than clothing that masks the real identity.
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Re:

05 Nov 2017 15:44

Merckx index wrote:Reading Philippa's description of her unhappiness as a man, a deep feeling that something was not right, something occurred to me that I had never thought of before. The feeling of being male or female is driven, of course, by hormones and other physiological substances. I wonder if it would be possible through hormonal or related therapy to change that feeling of being a woman to that of being a man. If it were, it would seem to be a faster, simpler and cheaper way to bring the body into line with mind and emotions.

I know there's a saying by transgenders, it's not your hormones, it's your identity. Well, I'm sorry, but (bio)chemistry is destiny. If you're a physical male who identifies with being a woman, there have to be differences in your brain relative to the brains of men who identify with being men. Even if the identity as a woman didn't start at birth, even if it resulted from environmental/cultural factors, that's still the case.

So why not pursue this course of action? One answer might be that while the procedure for turning a man's body into a woman's (or vice-versa) is fairly well-established, there probably isn't a known procedure for changing a woman's identity to that of a man. Since physiological males like Millar feel like woman, it presumably isn't just a matter of enough male hormones, at least not in all cases. There may be more subtle biochemical factors that aren't appreciated. It's well established that the brains of women are different in some ways from men, and while hormones normally underlie those differences, it may be that in people like Millar those differences have come about in other ways. So hormone treatment would not result in the changes.

But more, I think, gender identity is regarded as more sacred than the physical body. I'm guessing that most people feel their identify is "who they really are", so even if they were offered a way of changing it, they feel that would be wrong. This is why realizing genuine spirituality is so difficult and rare, because it does involve precisely casting aside what we regard as "I" as nothing more than clothing that masks the real identity.


I disagree with much of your premise as with that of identity put forward by transgenders. Maybe it’s more that many cultures present insufficient flexibility for people’s hormones and too many statified categories from which they have to choose.

Lots of women throughout history would like to have been men. Mainly to express the power and action their innate awareness allowed them. Physical strength too, but less so I suspect for sexualized identity. Perhaps with the advent of medical transformations of the body we’re seeing an inversion of that power aspiration.
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Re: Robert Millar becomes Phillipa York

06 Nov 2017 03:49

that reminds me of something done back in the 60s/70s (i think)
They surgically changed one [twin] boy into a girl, began hormone 'treatment', and raised it as a girl ... Raising twin boys as a brother and sister.
From memory, it turned into a dismal failure around early puberty, and everything went pear-shaped from there.
I could be wrong, but I vaguely recall it ending in suicide...
identity stronger than hormones?
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