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Sex, Gender and related issues

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Sex, Gender and related issues

07 Jul 2017 12:21

This thread was created by King Boonen on the separation of two subjects. Please do not link real people to the discussion where it is inappropriate. An attempt was made to keep the thread of the discussion while removing names etc. from posts. Hopefully it was successful.

*This discussion originated from a discussion about someone's transgender announcement.*

Thoughts?
Is it a positive, brave move?
Do you not care?
Do you think it is wrong?

I am hoping we can have a genuine discussion, whether you are for or against, without getting personal or espousing vile hatred.
Let's use this forum to discuss our opinions in a civilised manner and exercise our right to freedom of speech in the way we are supposed to :razz:
User avatar Ruby United
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Gender, sex and related issues.

07 Jul 2017 12:57

Ruby United wrote:Thoughts?
Is it a positive, brave move?
Do you not care?
Do you think it is wrong?

I am hoping we can have a genuine discussion, whether you are for or against, without getting personal or espousing vile hatred.
Let's use this forum to discuss our opinions in a civilised manner and exercise our right to freedom of speech in the way we are supposed to :razz:


nothing new or shocking. It's a brave move, I'm not terribly interested gender reassignment per se

It's not about being right or wrong imo. It's about the ability of all of us to live and let live. Finding happiness seems to be at the root of this and why should that be denied?
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Re: Robert Millar becomes Phillipa York

07 Jul 2017 13:28

Scott SoCal wrote:
Ruby United wrote:Thoughts?
Is it a positive, brave move?
Do you not care?
Do you think it is wrong?

I am hoping we can have a genuine discussion, whether you are for or against, without getting personal or espousing vile hatred.
Let's use this forum to discuss our opinions in a civilised manner and exercise our right to freedom of speech in the way we are supposed to :razz:


It's not about being right or wrong imo. It's about the ability of all of us to live and let live. Finding happiness seems to be at the root of this and why should that be denied?


The problem with this argument is that suicide rates among transgender people are almost the same whether or not they change their gender or not, according to studies I have read.
This indicates that changing gender does not increase the happiness of the person.
The suicide rates among transgenders is tragic, north of 40% - an amount that no other faction, race or group in history compares with as far as I am aware.
So the big questions are: Why is transgender suicide rates so tragically high? And why is the post-gender-change suicide rates almost the same?
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07 Jul 2017 14:54

Re suicide, maybe because the stigma from society is overwhelming regardless of gender change. Even if the change makes one happier, the increased risk for hate crime doesn't.
Goodbye, Tommeke; thank you for all you have given us!
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Re: Robert Millar becomes Phillipa York

07 Jul 2017 15:09

Ruby United wrote:
Scott SoCal wrote:
Ruby United wrote:Thoughts?
Is it a positive, brave move?
Do you not care?
Do you think it is wrong?

I am hoping we can have a genuine discussion, whether you are for or against, without getting personal or espousing vile hatred.
Let's use this forum to discuss our opinions in a civilised manner and exercise our right to freedom of speech in the way we are supposed to :razz:


It's not about being right or wrong imo. It's about the ability of all of us to live and let live. Finding happiness seems to be at the root of this and why should that be denied?


The problem with this argument is that suicide rates among transgender people are almost the same whether or not they change their gender or not, according to studies I have read.
This indicates that changing gender does not increase the happiness of the person.
The suicide rates among transgenders is tragic, north of 40% - an amount that no other faction, race or group in history compares with as far as I am aware.
So the big questions are: Why is transgender suicide rates so tragically high? And why is the post-gender-change suicide rates almost the same?


I think there's quite a bit of CDC research showing a pretty big life span decrease for the LGBT community... particularly gay males. Lots of stated reasons for it including suicide.
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Re:

07 Jul 2017 15:11

Netserk wrote:Re suicide, maybe because the stigma from society is overwhelming regardless of gender change. Even if the change makes one happier, the increased risk for hate crime doesn't.


That's true but it's also driven by lifestyle. Coping mechanisms that include increased drug and alcohol abuse appears to be a big driver.
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07 Jul 2017 15:13

The high suicide rates are correlated with the low levels of acceptance historically of LBGTQ issues

Think back to Obree and how hiding/suppressing his homosexuality fed his depression and suicidal thoughts.


Philippa has nothing but the best most positive thoughts from me.
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Re: Robert Millar becomes Phillipa York

07 Jul 2017 17:29

Ruby United wrote:
Scott SoCal wrote:
Ruby United wrote:Thoughts?
Is it a positive, brave move?
Do you not care?
Do you think it is wrong?

I am hoping we can have a genuine discussion, whether you are for or against, without getting personal or espousing vile hatred.
Let's use this forum to discuss our opinions in a civilised manner and exercise our right to freedom of speech in the way we are supposed to :razz:


It's not about being right or wrong imo. It's about the ability of all of us to live and let live. Finding happiness seems to be at the root of this and why should that be denied?


The problem with this argument is that suicide rates among transgender people are almost the same whether or not they change their gender or not, according to studies I have read.
This indicates that changing gender does not increase the happiness of the person.
The suicide rates among transgenders is tragic, north of 40% - an amount that no other faction, race or group in history compares with as far as I am aware.
So the big questions are: Why is transgender suicide rates so tragically high? And why is the post-gender-change suicide rates almost the same?


Correlation does not equal causation. Transgender is a complex subject and the term itself includes several different scenarios. For example transgender people can both have XX and XY chromosomes. So it's a pretty big tent.

As for reason for high suicide rates, I think it's because gender is such an integral part in our identity. And the problems arising from problems with it can be immense.

Take this: If you were to identify your self, you would likely list your gender as your most important feature.

Lets say: my name is xroft (notice names are often a cue to identify gender)
I am a man/woman
I am xx years old
I am hetero/homo sexual.
I am married/unmarried.
I have xx children.
I work at xx.
I like to ride my bicycle.
I love soap operas.

Imagine confusion or change with the primary identifier except for you name. Now imagine the turmoil you might feel if you lost your job. or suffered a change in any of the categories above work.

Anyway, that Jenner thing probably has lessened the social stigma.

Lucky I came across this thread. Now I know that articles by Phillipa York=Robert Millar=a good read.
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Re:

07 Jul 2017 18:26

Catwhoorg wrote:The high suicide rates are correlated with the low levels of acceptance historically of LBGTQ issues

Think back to Obree and how hiding/suppressing his homosexuality fed his depression and suicidal thoughts.


Philippa has nothing but the best most positive thoughts from me.


No faction in history has had anywhere close to as high a suicide rate. Blacks in slavery, women without rights and even Jews in the Holocaust have a lower suicide rate. There is NO ways Transgenders are discriminated against more than Jews in the Holocaust where 6 million were massacred under the auspices of a genocidal maniac.
It's hard to argue, knowing this, that there Transgender isn't linked to a mental illness.
How, through logic, can you argue for the 40+% suicide rate.
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Re: Re:

07 Jul 2017 18:33

Ruby United wrote:
Catwhoorg wrote:The high suicide rates are correlated with the low levels of acceptance historically of LBGTQ issues

Think back to Obree and how hiding/suppressing his homosexuality fed his depression and suicidal thoughts.


Philippa has nothing but the best most positive thoughts from me.


No faction in history has had anywhere close to as high a suicide rate. Blacks in slavery, women without rights and even Jews in the Holocaust have a lower suicide rate. There is NO ways Transgenders are discriminated against more than Jews in the Holocaust where 6 million were massacred under the auspices of a genocidal maniac.
It's hard to argue, knowing this, that there Transgender isn't linked to a mental illness.
How, through logic, can you argue for the 40+% suicide rate.

Wow.

:surprised:

I'd advice you to be a little bit more humble when concluding that a particular high suicide rate means that transgenders are mentally ill.
Goodbye, Tommeke; thank you for all you have given us!
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07 Jul 2017 18:47

I'm not an expert in this area, but I would also comment that the 40% figure is the rate for suicide attempts. (which is about 10x the figure for the whole population of ~4%).


But discussing the details of it, is not the I am sure the intent of the thread.

As I said before best thoughts to Philippa and her future.
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Re:

07 Jul 2017 18:57

Catwhoorg wrote:I'm not an expert in this area, but I would also comment that the 40% figure is the rate for suicide attempts. (which is about 10x the figure for the whole population of ~4%).


But discussing the details of it, is not the I am sure the intent of the thread.

As I said before best thoughts to Philippa and her future.

No expert either, but from what I've heard, if you don't do the process with proper medical guidance you can mess up your hormones pretty bad, which might be a contributing factor.
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Re: Re:

07 Jul 2017 19:03

Ruby United wrote:It's hard to argue, knowing this, that there Transgender isn't linked to a mental illness. How, through logic, can you argue for the 40+% suicide rate.

You're going to need to clarify that. Are you saying mental illness because of societal pressure? Or from the decisions people make about sexual orientation? If the latter, if you can show peer reviewed endocrinology studies (or even non peer reviewed, but ones from respected authors) showing that nothing physiological or hormonal impacts any of these people's decisions, and it's all psychological, please share. If not, I recommend you be very cautious about what you post.
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Re: Robert Millar becomes Phillipa York

07 Jul 2017 19:04

The mentally ill argument mainly comes from the evangelicals--I.e. the same people who think there's a god in the sky and the earth came to be 4000 years ago. The same people who believe that a virgin gave birth to a baby.
The same people who believe that every single one of us are sinners.
I don't believe people like that have a right to say who is and who is not mentally ill.
I'm so glad we live in a society where people like Phillipa can express themselves however they see fit. I wish nothing but the best for her and anyone else who has to deal with the nonsense spouted by those whose beliefs are rooted in fiction.
Last edited by the delgados on 08 Jul 2017 02:29, edited 3 times in total.
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Re:

07 Jul 2017 23:04

Catwhoorg wrote:The high suicide rates are correlated with the low levels of acceptance historically of LBGTQ issues

Think back to Obree and how hiding/suppressing his homosexuality fed his depression and suicidal thoughts.


Philippa has nothing but the best most positive thoughts from me.
This.

Not only is there very little understanding and/or acceptance of transgender peoples, there's also a high murder rate of them. (Well, at least here in the States it seems to be.)

While I am not transgender myself I do consider myself to be their ally.
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Re: Re:

08 Jul 2017 22:32

Netserk wrote:
Ruby United wrote:
Catwhoorg wrote:The high suicide rates are correlated with the low levels of acceptance historically of LBGTQ issues

Think back to Obree and how hiding/suppressing his homosexuality fed his depression and suicidal thoughts.


Philippa has nothing but the best most positive thoughts from me.


No faction in history has had anywhere close to as high a suicide rate. Blacks in slavery, women without rights and even Jews in the Holocaust have a lower suicide rate. There is NO ways Transgenders are discriminated against more than Jews in the Holocaust where 6 million were massacred under the auspices of a genocidal maniac.
It's hard to argue, knowing this, that there Transgender isn't linked to a mental illness.
How, through logic, can you argue for the 40+% suicide rate.

Wow.

:surprised:

I'd advice you to be a little bit more humble when concluding that a particular high suicide rate means that transgenders are mentally ill.


I knew my opinion - based on facts - would not be popular.
That does not make it any less true.
Though I appreciate the fact that the conversation has remained civil.
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Re: Re:

08 Jul 2017 22:40

Ruby United wrote:
Netserk wrote:
Ruby United wrote:
Catwhoorg wrote:The high suicide rates are correlated with the low levels of acceptance historically of LBGTQ issues

Think back to Obree and how hiding/suppressing his homosexuality fed his depression and suicidal thoughts.


Philippa has nothing but the best most positive thoughts from me.


No faction in history has had anywhere close to as high a suicide rate. Blacks in slavery, women without rights and even Jews in the Holocaust have a lower suicide rate. There is NO ways Transgenders are discriminated against more than Jews in the Holocaust where 6 million were massacred under the auspices of a genocidal maniac.
It's hard to argue, knowing this, that there Transgender isn't linked to a mental illness.
How, through logic, can you argue for the 40+% suicide rate.

Wow.

:surprised:

I'd advice you to be a little bit more humble when concluding that a particular high suicide rate means that transgenders are mentally ill.


I knew my opinion - based on facts - would not be popular.
That does not make it any less true.
Though I appreciate the fact that the conversation has remained civil.


Being transgender does not equate to being mentally ill.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/brynn-tannehill/the-truth-about-transgend_b_8564834.html

Cant be easy to live trapped in the body of the opposite sex. I think it would drive a lot of people to suicide.
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Re: Robert Millar becomes Phillipa York

08 Jul 2017 23:02

the delgados wrote:The mentally ill argument mainly comes from the evangelicals--I.e. the same people who think there's a god in the sky and the earth came to be 4000 years ago. The same people who believe that a virgin gave birth to a baby.
The same people who believe that every single one of us are sinners.
I don't believe people like that have a right to say who is and who is not mentally ill.


A typical case of someone arguing a point based on people who have the same belief as that particular point.
Argue with the argument, not the arguer.
I am not an evangelical - though I am still confused about the relevance of that - and all debates should be argued through logic and facts.
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Re: Re:

08 Jul 2017 23:08

Benotti69 wrote:
Being transgender does not equate to being mentally ill.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/brynn-tannehill/the-truth-about-transgend_b_8564834.html

Cant be easy to live trapped in the body of the opposite sex. I think it would drive a lot of people to suicide. But i think that Pippa York has found acceptance and has a great outlook and again wish her well and the best for the future.


I read that article several months ago and was thoroughly unconvinced by it for numerous reasons.
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Re: Robert Millar becomes Phillipa York

09 Jul 2017 01:02

Ruby United wrote:
the delgados wrote:The mentally ill argument mainly comes from the evangelicals--I.e. the same people who think there's a god in the sky and the earth came to be 4000 years ago. The same people who believe that a virgin gave birth to a baby.
The same people who believe that every single one of us are sinners.
I don't believe people like that have a right to say who is and who is not mentally ill.


A typical case of someone arguing a point based on people who have the same belief as that particular point.
Argue with the argument, not the arguer.
I am not an evangelical - though I am still confused about the relevance of that - and all debates should be argued through logic and facts.


Agreed-- All debates should be argued through logic and fact.
The only opposition I've ever encountered was defending a transgender friend who is accomplished, smart and kind against distant evangelical family members who insist she is mentally ill.
That's my experience. My point being is they are not in a position to diagnose mental illness.
Unless you are a doctor, I'm going to go out on a limb and suggest neither are you.
Edited to ask a question: What is your point of even bringing up the topic?
I'm an atheist who cannot wrap my head around people who believe the points I mentioned previously. It's like talking to a rational person at a party who meanders off and starts talking about Santa sliding down the chimney. That's how weird it is. Yet I don't complain. You our anyone else can believe what you want to believe as long as you do't hurt others.
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