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30 Apr 2018 15:30

I don't want it to degenerate in a clinic or political discussion. However I wanted to voice my point of view.

Hence, I just stated my feelings without elaborating, which is very sad as Giro is the best GT in the calendar. That's it, that's all.

And I didn't like the transfers from Ireland either.
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Re: Re:

30 Apr 2018 15:39

Pirazziattacks wrote:
Netserk wrote:
slosada wrote:For me the Giro starts in Sicily. I won't watch the first 3 stages for many reasons: The political one is the first and foremost, the second is that I don't support starting a Giro from that far and the third is the presence of someone that can steal results from other riders with a high chance of being stripped later.

The transfer was longer in '14. Froome probably has less risk to be stripped of his results than Contador had in '11. As for the political concerns, to each his own, but I certainly wouldn't have Israel as any worse than most other Middle Eastern countries. Or China, for that matter.

What is wrong with you people? Is a cycling race enough for you to deny what the state of Israel is, how it came to be what it is, and what it continues to do to Palestinians?

I'm not sure if you're posting out of naiveté, malice, or some sick form of moral relativism. Frankly, it doesn't really matter. It's not a political concern. It's about a series of heinous and ongoing crimes, the destruction and dispossession of an entire people and culture- all allowed, encouraged and funded by large portions of the international community. If this doesn't bother you, I don't know what will. Spot of genocide? Have at it, to each his own right?

Where is the denial?

It is entirely possible to be of the opinion that what Israel does is wrong (it's a bit more complex and nuanced than that), but also that not having a bike race there probably doesn't make a (positive) difference, and that it isn't an exceptional event to have the professional peloton at such a place. And that while the Giro is more important than the A.S.O. races in the nearby countries, Israel is still not as bad a place to have a bike race.

As I wrote, to each his own, but I personally don't see this as an exceptional event.
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Re: Re:

30 Apr 2018 15:57

Netserk wrote:
slosada wrote:For me the Giro starts in Sicily. I won't watch the first 3 stages for many reasons: The political one is the first and foremost, the second is that I don't support starting a Giro from that far and the third is the presence of someone that can steal results from other riders with a high chance of being stripped later.

The transfer was longer in '14. Froome probably has less risk to be stripped of his results than Contador had in '11. As for the political concerns, to each his own, but I certainly wouldn't have Israel as any worse than most other Middle Eastern countries. Or China, for that matter.


Lets worry about the political reasons when footballers boycott the world cup in Russia, of course not something Italians and Dutch have to worry about
del1962
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Re:

30 Apr 2018 16:32

slosada wrote:For me the Giro starts in Sicily. I won't watch the first 3 stages for many reasons: The political one is the first and foremost, the second is that I don't support starting a Giro from that far and the third is the presence of someone that can steal results from other riders with a high chance of being stripped later.


Well if you are consistent you won't be watching the Giro at all.
yaco
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Re:

01 May 2018 09:21

slosada wrote:For me the Giro starts in Sicily. I won't watch the first 3 stages for many reasons: The political one is the first and foremost, the second is that I don't support starting a Giro from that far and the third is the presence of someone that can steal results from other riders with a high chance of being stripped later.

Too much times sport was partner of questionable things and is duty to take a position about it... I think your words are right and in the right place.
Ciddaman
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01 May 2018 12:35

This thread was started to discuss politics in sport, ie: dt using the NFL as his own pawn, players using their platform to call attention to issues, etc. IMO, the current conversation isn't politics in sports.
jmdirt
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01 May 2018 12:38

It was discussed in this thread on page one.
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Re:

01 May 2018 15:14

King Boonen wrote:It was discussed in this thread on page one.

That doesn't change my opinion...
jmdirt
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Re: Re:

01 May 2018 15:17

jmdirt wrote:
King Boonen wrote:It was discussed in this thread on page one.

That doesn't change my opinion...


It does seem to question it though.
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Re: Re:

01 May 2018 17:12

King Boonen wrote:
jmdirt wrote:
King Boonen wrote:It was discussed in this thread on page one.

That doesn't change my opinion...


It does seem to question it though.

I'm not sure if you can question an opinion but, persuade me: how is the Giro starting in a foreign country "Politics in Sports"? How are politicians/politics in the region affecting the race/teams/riders?

FYI: I'm as aware as most that my opinion doesn't mean squat! :lol:

EDIT: You CAN question an opinion of course, but you know what I'm saying...
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02 May 2018 09:42

It was more a question of why you didn't voice the opinion when the original discussion came up, considering you were posting in the thread at the time.

Do I really have to explain how the Israeli government is using the Giro for political point-scoring and the impact this could have on the race? It seems really, really obvious to be honest.
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User avatar King Boonen
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Re:

02 May 2018 12:53

King Boonen wrote:It was more a question of why you didn't voice the opinion when the original discussion came up, considering you were posting in the thread at the time.

Do I really have to explain how the Israeli government is using the Giro for political point-scoring and the impact this could have on the race? It seems really, really obvious to be honest.


The posts above are talking about politics.<That's a period. They aren't talking about how politics are affecting or will affect the race.

I didn't question it before because I hoped that people would realize that they should post this topic in World Politics or a Mod would direct them to do so.

Every country who hosts an event is buying political capitol, but that's not the point of this discussion nor or this thread.
jmdirt
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02 May 2018 13:30

viewtopic.php?p=2252352#p2252352

viewtopic.php?p=2252370#p2252370

viewtopic.php?p=2252378#p2252378

All three of these posts are, in some way discussing how this use of the Giro for political gain might affect the race, especially if we consider that Froome's large appearance fee is no doubt funded in some way by the money the Israeli government is paying. How about the forced change of the stage 1 location naming from West Jerusalem to Jerusalem. Clearly an attempt to use the Giro as a "political pawn", to quote your first post.

We could discuss the recent deaths of Palestinian protestors and how hosting events like this are a way to draw attention away from these actions.

We could discuss articles like this:

http://www.middleeasteye.net/news/giro-ditalia-palestinian-amputee-cyclist-condemns-race1657653742

This seems like the place to discuss this. We can move it to a new thread if it really bothers you?
Vincenzo Nibali:
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Reduce your carbon footprint, ride steel.
User avatar King Boonen
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Re:

02 May 2018 13:41

King Boonen wrote:http://forum.cyclingnews.com/viewtopic.php?p=2252352#p2252352

viewtopic.php?p=2252370#p2252370

viewtopic.php?p=2252378#p2252378

All three of these posts are, in some way discussing how this use of the Giro for political gain might affect the race, especially if we consider that Froome's large appearance fee is no doubt funded in some way by the money the Israeli government is paying. How about the forced change of the stage 1 location naming from West Jerusalem to Jerusalem. Clearly an attempt to use the Giro as a "political pawn", to quote your first post.

We could discuss the recent deaths of Palestinian protestors and how hosting events like this are a way to draw attention away from these actions.

We could discuss articles like this:

http://www.middleeasteye.net/news/giro-ditalia-palestinian-amputee-cyclist-condemns-race1657653742

This seems like the place to discuss this. We can move it to a new thread if it really bothers you?


Seems like the Giro start in Israel is drawing attention to these actions, not away from.
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User avatar Scott SoCal
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Re: Re:

02 May 2018 14:10

Scott SoCal wrote:
King Boonen wrote:http://forum.cyclingnews.com/viewtopic.php?p=2252352#p2252352

viewtopic.php?p=2252370#p2252370

viewtopic.php?p=2252378#p2252378

All three of these posts are, in some way discussing how this use of the Giro for political gain might affect the race, especially if we consider that Froome's large appearance fee is no doubt funded in some way by the money the Israeli government is paying. How about the forced change of the stage 1 location naming from West Jerusalem to Jerusalem. Clearly an attempt to use the Giro as a "political pawn", to quote your first post.

We could discuss the recent deaths of Palestinian protestors and how hosting events like this are a way to draw attention away from these actions.

We could discuss articles like this:

http://www.middleeasteye.net/news/giro-ditalia-palestinian-amputee-cyclist-condemns-race1657653742

This seems like the place to discuss this. We can move it to a new thread if it really bothers you?


Seems like the Giro start in Israel is drawing attention to these actions, not away from.


Really? Got any articles you could point me to? I've seen little to no coverage in the UK press discussing the issue with regard to the Giro and I've seen no increase in articles discussing the situation. Possibly it's mentioned in US news sources?

Remember that Land Day was on the 30th March and there are six weeks leading up to the anniversary of the Nakba that almost always sees increased protests and, as such, increased violence towards these protests.

There is this on the Telegraph (paywall so I can't read it) but what I can read does not fill me with hope...

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/cycling/2018/05/02/giro-ditalia-2018-starting-israel-controversy-worth-risk/

The Guardian currently has nothing on their main cycling page and you would think if any major outlet in the UK would then it would be them.
Vincenzo Nibali:
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Reduce your carbon footprint, ride steel.
User avatar King Boonen
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Re: Re:

02 May 2018 15:01

King Boonen wrote:
Scott SoCal wrote:
King Boonen wrote:http://forum.cyclingnews.com/viewtopic.php?p=2252352#p2252352

viewtopic.php?p=2252370#p2252370

viewtopic.php?p=2252378#p2252378

All three of these posts are, in some way discussing how this use of the Giro for political gain might affect the race, especially if we consider that Froome's large appearance fee is no doubt funded in some way by the money the Israeli government is paying. How about the forced change of the stage 1 location naming from West Jerusalem to Jerusalem. Clearly an attempt to use the Giro as a "political pawn", to quote your first post.

We could discuss the recent deaths of Palestinian protestors and how hosting events like this are a way to draw attention away from these actions.

We could discuss articles like this:

http://www.middleeasteye.net/news/giro-ditalia-palestinian-amputee-cyclist-condemns-race1657653742

This seems like the place to discuss this. We can move it to a new thread if it really bothers you?


Seems like the Giro start in Israel is drawing attention to these actions, not away from.


Really? Got any articles you could point me to? I've seen little to no coverage in the UK press discussing the issue with regard to the Giro and I've seen no increase in articles discussing the situation. Possibly it's mentioned in US news sources?

Remember that Land Day was on the 30th March and there are six weeks leading up to the anniversary of the Nakba that almost always sees increased protests and, as such, increased violence towards these protests.

There is this on the Telegraph (paywall so I can't read it) but what I can read does not fill me with hope...

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/cycling/2018/05/02/giro-ditalia-2018-starting-israel-controversy-worth-risk/

The Guardian currently has nothing on their main cycling page and you would think if any major outlet in the UK would then it would be them.


Sorry. Anecdotal and my perception.. and it's not only limited to recent deaths of Palestinian protesters. I can't think of a rider interview I've read where the question of of the start location wasn't asked about. Dumoulin/Velonews. Andy Hood discusses the Israel start as well.

I was at the Ronde van Vlaanderen this year and spoke with a Belgian friend who runs a big cyclo tour organization. He was telling me how good business has been, how slammed he is and how he was very worried about having zero Giro bookings. Last year he was nearly sold out by the first weekend in April. This year he had nada. We talked about possible reasons for this and you can probably guess what his thought on the matter were.
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User avatar Scott SoCal
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02 May 2018 15:17

No worries, perception is fine with me as that's largely what I'm going off too. I've not read any rider views on the start, I'll check out Dumoulin on Velonews, I've avoided anything Giro related.


Interesting anecdote about the Tours. I assume we mean tours to Italy? If not and you do mean Israel, was his thinking it was security or political reasons for lack of bookings?
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Reduce your carbon footprint, ride steel.
User avatar King Boonen
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Re:

02 May 2018 15:34

King Boonen wrote:No worries, perception is fine with me as that's largely what I'm going off too. I've not read any rider views on the start, I'll check out Dumoulin on Velonews, I've avoided anything Giro related.


Interesting anecdote about the Tours. I assume we mean tours to Italy? If not and you do mean Israel, was his thinking it was security or political reasons for lack of bookings?


He has several different possibilities for Giro related tours. As of about 30 minutes before Terpstra crossed the finish line in Oudenaarde he had zero bookings and was a bit freaked over it. Not sure how it's turned out.
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User avatar Scott SoCal
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Re:

02 May 2018 17:17

King Boonen wrote:http://forum.cyclingnews.com/viewtopic.php?p=2252352#p2252352

viewtopic.php?p=2252370#p2252370

viewtopic.php?p=2252378#p2252378

All three of these posts are, in some way discussing how this use of the Giro for political gain might affect the race, especially if we consider that Froome's large appearance fee is no doubt funded in some way by the money the Israeli government is paying. How about the forced change of the stage 1 location naming from West Jerusalem to Jerusalem. Clearly an attempt to use the Giro as a "political pawn", to quote your first post.

We could discuss the recent deaths of Palestinian protestors and how hosting events like this are a way to draw attention away from these actions.

We could discuss articles like this:

http://www.middleeasteye.net/news/giro-ditalia-palestinian-amputee-cyclist-condemns-race1657653742

This seems like the place to discuss this. We can move it to a new thread if it really bothers you?

First, those "three" are the same post with replies, second, they are from a few days ago, third they don't discuss how politics are affecting the Giro (unless the long transfer is "political").

The Giros roll in distracting from, or bringing attention to Israel isn't politics in sports, its world politics, IMO.

EDIT: Are the athletes taking a political stand? Are politicians responding to or reacting to the athletes? Are politicians taking action based on the athletes' action? That is politics in sport IMIO. The Giro starting in Israel is an athletic event taking place in a politically charged area at this point. Now, it could become something else, but at this point it isn't. Plus, just for giggles I asked 10 of my coworkers at the lunch table today if they knew where the Giro D' Italia was starting this year, and only one even knew what the Giro was let alone where it was starting. By the way, she said "Rome?".

I've officially hijacked my own thread by protesting its incorrect use! :lol:
jmdirt
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Re:

04 May 2018 09:37

King Boonen wrote:http://forum.cyclingnews.com/viewtopic.php?p=2252352#p2252352

viewtopic.php?p=2252370#p2252370

viewtopic.php?p=2252378#p2252378

All three of these posts are, in some way discussing how this use of the Giro for political gain might affect the race, especially if we consider that Froome's large appearance fee is no doubt funded in some way by the money the Israeli government is paying. How about the forced change of the stage 1 location naming from West Jerusalem to Jerusalem. Clearly an attempt to use the Giro as a "political pawn", to quote your first post.

We could discuss the recent deaths of Palestinian protestors and how hosting events like this are a way to draw attention away from these actions.

We could discuss articles like this:

http://www.middleeasteye.net/news/giro-ditalia-palestinian-amputee-cyclist-condemns-race1657653742

This seems like the place to discuss this. We can move it to a new thread if it really bothers you?

Exactly this.
I wonder if they will show lovely helicopter shots of the open-air prison that is Gaza in stage 2, when they come quite close to it.

Cycling is used for political white-washing. Pretty disgusting.
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